Just wondering....

 

As it's unavoidable, 'showing off' is encouraged :)

Under near field listening, my system can be consider almost there depend on how the music being recorded. 8)

Why don't u tell us about your setup? ;)

 

I don't seek to achieve realism because the recording is not perfect in the first place. Mine is somewhat "almost there". Sometimes I do get the eerie sense of realism, most times not. But it's a laid-back, musical setup that I enjoy.

 

Just wondering....

 

As it's unavoidable, 'showing off' is encouraged :)

TOOL, don't set sooooo highhhhh standard for yourself leh.

;)

 

I voted for 'futile' :)

 

With a little bit of imagination, yes it's almost there! :P

hi,i think thats depend on what kind of "live music".....

 

simple music like chinese erhu solo,yangqi,western music like solo guiter...etc its almost the same as live... :)

 

but when come to bigger scale instutment like grand piano or harp,of couse it become a bit unreal,music with 30/40 musicial even worse....but its not totally becos of recording,but the size of our room also affect the hifi performent... :-\

 

as 4 new age music or electronic music---what is "real" live sound?....use those PA system as ref.... ::) ;D

Don't have too much experience in live music. But in a simple test of 'a/b' comparison, I can always differentiate between voice reproduce by my speakers and a real person. I wonder how many systems can pass this test.

get out of the stuffy "hifi room" and smell the roses! kekekeke..

 

 

1. My experience so far indicates that reproduced music will NEVER sound like real music. If we need to use imagination, then all music will sound like real live music so if I have to say either yes or no, then it is a clear no.

 

2. The no is not subjective and no matter what is your budget or how well u think your system synergizes, it is a NO.

 

3. Live music has no relation to helping 'reproduced' music. Liking live music does not make u 'better' in 'tuning' your system. Knowing 'live' music does not help u either. U may 'know' how real 'music' sound like but do u 'know' where to start tuning your system or how to?

 

3. BTW I use to believe listening to live music will help but after years of attending SSO and hotel lounges, I really enjoy my hi fi system with her 'can' music much more than live concert. Others may experience differently but for me, sitting in my chair and listening to whatever I fancy at night is the most enjoyable thing, not to drive down Nicoll highway, find a carpark, mix with lots of 'fellow' music fan (true or false), get a bad seat and listen to 'live' music and repeat the process after the concert.

 

4. I do not slam live music, mind u and going out with a group of friends to a lounge is certainly great where u share and enjoy each other's company. What I am trying to say is attending or not attending live music performance has absolutely NO impact on enjoying your hifi system.

 

Enjoy

 

Don't have too much experience in live music. But in a simple test of 'a/b' comparison, I can always differentiate between voice reproduce by my speakers and a real person. I wonder how many systems can pass this test.

 

.....sorry....but i did heard some really good "tuned" hifi system(nothing 2 do with their $) can reproduce very real human voice.... ::)

 

 

 

Live music has no relation to helping 'reproduced' music. Liking live music does not make u 'better' in 'tuning' your system. Knowing 'live' music does not help u either. U may 'know' how real 'music' sound like but do u 'know' where to start tuning your system or how to?

 

 

 

partly agree that"Live music has no relation to helping 'reproduced' music. "....

 

 

 

but not very agree "Liking live music does not make u 'better' in 'tuning' your system."cos i think live sound(....not always music)should be use as a basic ref. when start tuning ur system...

 

sure it cant be exacty same with the oringnal sound we human hear at the recoding studio, cos it went tru mic and ton of eq. b4 made into CD....

 

but i dont think u can enjoy a system that when playback volin sound like playback cello if u know the real sound of volin,right?

:)

it'd be difficult to know what is a "real" violin sound bcos there's simply no "real" violin sound.

 

different brand, different year of making, different wood, different strings, and even different bowing technique will give a different sound.

 

but i guess it'd take a rather good system to be able to differentiate the same note played by a cello and a violin :)

 

 

different brand, different year of making, different wood, different strings, and even different bowing technique will give a different sound.

 

 

yes... even in different room same violin also sound differently....but its still sound like a violin,right? ;D

 

differentiate the same note played by a cello and a violin might be diffecult....but thats the fun of being a audiophil, cos we can callenge ourself 2 try 2 tune our system as close 2 the sound in our mind what a violin should sound like as possible.... ;)

 

i saw many so call "high-end audiophile" after buying their highend staff just leaves it there without tuning and hope 4 good sound,many after few years 4 sure they were give up their hifi hobby cos they dont know where's the callenge are......they thought hifi is all about buying expensive staff..... :-\

 

its a pity cos they dont know what their hifi should a least sound like--either they thought that hifi could not sound as real as real sound or they are too busy to try to tune their system(tuning is only all about try and error,nothing so "cim"..).... :-[

 

it only my personal opion,no offend.. ;)

 

Wanta achieve realism? Ponder some words of wisdom....

 

"With the current state of the art of stereo, it is impossible to capture an acoustical event, much less to reproduce it.

 

Imagine two microphones in a concert venue. Suppose they are 'perfect' in that they have a linear frequency response, a well-known polar pattern, and that they impart no noise nor distortion to the signal picked up. So what they would deliver is a 'perfect' transduction of the original acoustic event, but only in 2 points in the hall, and devoid of directional clues. Do you think the information gathered in these 2 points is sufficient to re-create the original soundfield? And if so, do you think it possible to do that with only two loudspeakers, two imperfect ones at that, in a different and also imperfect room?

 

The whole process of stereo is severely flawed from the beginning to the end, and yet, audiophiles keep rambling on about their system's realism.

 

Things like imaging, depth, height, ... are illusions. They are some form of colouration induced during the recording and/or the playback process, and by the nature of stereo itself. And as it goes with colours, we can like or dislike them.

 

So what we're really after is not realism at playback, but rather creating an aurally pleasing form of playback, a form that we use subsequently to fool ourselves that we are hearing something (almost) real. Call it a scale-model of reality, or perhaps a metaphor, or a surrogate, shaped and tinted to aurally fit into our living rooms.

We are substituting ad-hoc technical properties of real-world systems and methods for a reality which, by definition, can't be reproduced with dumb stereo. Such substitute properties are things like spectral balance ("Wow, what a bass rendition" - Well, I recently sat at a bar, not 3 meters from a playing double bass. There was no slam, no resonating harmonics, in fact, it sounded worse than on many records) and "vivid, 3D imaging" ("See/hear that pinpoint imaging" - Close your eyes. Are real sounds pinpoint?)

 

It is useful to understand what drives audiophiles. It is useful to relativate all of this. And then you'll may see that in the end, all means to get good sound, whatever the latter may mean, are valid."

 

 

Taken from http://www.angelfire.com/music4/audio_visions/opium1.html

 

We tailor our system to please ourselves - to fulfill our own idea of realism - so that we are entertained by it.

 

To quote someone:

 

"You want the truth? You can't handle the truth!"

:P

 

 

yes... even in different room same violin also sound differently....but its still sound like a violin,right? ;D

 

differentiate the same note played by a cello and a violin might be diffecult....but thats the fun of being a audiophil, cos we can callenge ourself 2 try 2 tune our system as close 2 the sound in our mind what a violin should sound like as possible.... ;)

 

i saw many so call "high-end audiophile" after buying their highend staff just leaves it there without tuning and hope 4 good sound,many after few years 4 sure they were give up their hifi hobby cos they dont know where's the callenge are......they thought hifi is all about buying expensive staff..... :-\

 

its a pity cos they dont know what their hifi should a least sound like--either they thought that hifi could not sound as real as real sound or they are too busy to try to tune their system(tuning is only all about try and error,nothing so "cim"..).... :-[

 

it only my personal opion,no offend.. ;)

 

 

If the [so call "high-end audiophile"] enjoy their personal hifi as it is without tuning it to achieve your idea of realism, what is that to you? It's his money and his prerogative.....I think we should not infect anyone with our "audiophilia" of trying to achieve "realism" - whatever that personal definition is. Show me an audiophile and I will show you two "normal" persons who are very satisfied with their minicompos and who would never spend so much effort, time and money trying to make our hifi sound real.

 

They have their personal nirvanas and it is not where audiophiles are heading...... ;D .

 

Also my personal opinion, no offense taken! :P

 

Wanta achieve realism? Ponder some words of wisdom....

 

 

 

Imagine two microphones in a concert venue. Suppose they are 'perfect' in that they have a linear frequency response, a well-known polar pattern, and that they impart no noise nor distortion to the signal picked up. So what they would deliver is a 'perfect' transduction of the original acoustic event, but only in 2 points in the hall, and devoid of directional clues. Do you think the information gathered in these 2 points is sufficient to re-create the original soundfield? And if so, do you think it possible to do that with only two loudspeakers, two imperfect ones at that, in a different and also imperfect room?

 

 

 

 

wow....so "cim".....i think he foget too mention that WE ALSO ONLY HAVE 2 EAR...... ;D ;D

good good! then they sell off their stuff at a low low price, we go grab! hahaahh ;)

 

 

i saw many so call "high-end audiophile" after buying their highend staff just leaves it there without tuning and hope 4 good sound,many after few years 4 sure they were give up their hifi hobby cos they dont know where's the callenge are......they thought hifi is all about buying expensive staff..... :-\

 

its a pity cos they dont know what their hifi should a least sound like--either they thought that hifi could not sound as real as real sound or they are too busy to try to tune their system(tuning is only all about try and error,nothing so "cim"..).... :-[

 

it only my personal opion,no offend.. ;)

 

 

If the [so call "high-end audiophile"] enjoy their personal hifi as it is without tuning it to achieve your idea of realism, what is that to you? It's his money and his prerogative.....I think we should not infect anyone with our "audiophilia" of trying to achieve "realism" - whatever that personal definition is. Show me an audiophile and I will show you two "normal" persons who are very satisfied with their minicompos and who would never spend so much effort, time and money trying to make our hifi sound real.

 

They have their personal nirvanas and it is not where audiophiles are heading...... ;D .

 

Also my personal opinion, no offense taken! :P

 

 

u see,actually i was of no intention to offence their "personal nirvanas",its their eq. after all right?....but i was just trying to tell everyone why i think some "hi end audiophile"give up their hi end staff and hobby after some years....

 

of couse its nothing to do with me...just a bit sad why i were unable 2 afford what they own ...GYPHON,GOLDMUND...etc etc :-[

Hi

Further thoughts

1. If u think Cai Qing sound 'real' and palpable in your hi fi system, on what basis do u based your findings? I know most audiophile like female vocals becos that is one of the easiest to find 'palpability' or presence. sounds like real type of feeling but it is never real. Has Cai Qing stand in the hi fi set up spot and sang unamplified for u so u know that your system's reproduction sounded 'real'? If not u only hear a female voice singing and gives u a feeling of realness which ufortunately can never be verified as 'real'.

 

2. When we talk abt 'live', what do u mean actually? Does it mean the tonality, timbre, tempo, the 'live' experience etc etc? Most will say all of the above or a combination of the above rite? so assuming your system can reproduced a 'live' Cai Qing , does it mean it can reproduced a 'live' Jacky Cheung? or to add complications a live 'trumpet' against a 'live' violin. My contention is if your system can reproduced a 'live' Cai Qing, it will fail miserably in reproducing 'Belafonte'. If the system can reproduced Cai Qing and Belafonte, it will not be able to reproduced the full Karajan Beethoven 9th and so on and so forth.

 

3. So how long do u need to listen to live music to reinforce the live 'violin' sound? And do u really need to listen to live music to distinguish between a Cello and a violin? or a guitar and a trumpet? or a male voice against a female?

 

4. There are many 'audiophiles' that does nothing except spend money on expensive equipments. do u call them audiophiles? How do u define adiophiles? If we define it correct like high end does not equate to high prices etc, then we will know that these people that buy expensive product for whatever purposes except listening to music can never be classified as audiophile and we in this community (hopefully we do not have people here) must know what we are talking abt. do not abuse the word audiophile as all 'layman' now associate audiophiles with crazy people spending insane amount of money on hi fi. Or high end means big bucks.

 

5. So we enjoy live music for whatever it is worth and if on a subconsious level it helps me identify what a violin should sound , then I am glad. I set up my system using only 1 criteria, that it sound good to me and I change my component using 2 which is I am willing and able to afford the change and the change makes the sound 'better' to me. So far Truth and How real it sound compared to 'live' music has never been considered. If it is then buying the expensive toys when people sell is 'wrong' becos they may be the msot colored equipment in the market.

 

6. Maybe others can share your criteria and why u select the components in your system ( I know most of us are limited by our budget).

 

7. I have to be 'harsh' here but given a choice between a Burmester system and what u have at home on a one to one exchange, msot of us will throw away our system within 1 sec. How about an MBL system instead? or if u like a Mark Levinson, a Krell, a Jadis, A YBA or Goldmund, Jeff Rowland system for swap? Which system is 'neutral' and approaches 'live' music?? Each and every one above or a combination of above will NEVER give u live music but we all gladly change becos they give us 'better' sound. I may be wrong here but if u are not one of the above, I apologized. Does better sound means nearer to live? Yes and No.

 

8. Never under-estimate the power of pride of ownership and the association of 'more expensive' means better sound. Most of us ended up where we are becos we could not afford all these 'branded' stuff. If we could, I believe most will jump at the first opportunity and hence the eagerness of everyone to find a 'bargain' esp expensive components. If I were to sell an MBL 9010 ($28K new) for $2k used tom, how many will buy it becos it sounded like 'live' music?????? Heck most will buy it becos it sounded better than what u have and I can tell my good buddy I got a $28k amp for $2k. Remember the April fool's joke?? Believe me even if it is real and the deal is actually $500 for the Krell, I will NOT pay for it becos it is not my idea of good sound (sorry all Krell supporters). It has nothing to do with it sounding like 'live ' or not.

 

Sorry for the long post.

 

Thanks.

Practically what is the closest valid reference we can refer to? Where can we start from here?

 

I consider the purest form of reference is to listen to live music without electronic amplification. Surprisingly the actual sound produce by musical instruments could be less enjoyable compare to our hifi system. It could be harsher than or not as sweet as what we imagine. But that’s how it supposes to sound.

 

What is the goal of high-fidelity? What is the right sound? Do higher levels of fidelity always lead to better musical enjoyment?

 

Personally I think it’s alright for manufacturer to make music sound better than the real thing. For example, I like Naim CD5. I know it departs from realism but it also deliver music in an appealing manner. Simply draw listener in and refuse to let go.

 

In another thread I asked ongus for opinion on Dynaudio Contour 1.3SE vs Harbert HL-Compact 7SE. he said he prefer music to be reproduce in higher resolution … may not represent the actual sound. I now have the impression that Harbert sound more real even though Dyna add refinement to music. Which is a better choice? Well really depend on personal taste.

 

wouldn't "more resolution" be a better thing?

 

...this is a strange hobby...

hmm... no comment abt that..so far so good.. the only CDs taht sux on my system are those badly pressed ones or the music already sux big time.

My personal simple observation is that attempt to arrived at the perfect sound referenced fully on 'live' sound will be futile for two very obvious reasons.

Firstly the limitation of the recording process from the begining itself will result in inforamtion being distorted or even lost by the time it reaches the master tape. Things will only gets worse by the time it get transferred to the cds , lps or whatever medium.

And your playback audio gears will add its own distortion and move it further away from the truth. Consider the mountains of variables right from the source to the speakers and the hoards of cabling and support possibilities.

And we must not forget that when we play back a disc or lps, or whatever medium, we are simply replaying what is being prerecorded. At best we can only pick up what is being picked up by the MICROPHONE subject to the limitation of the entire recording chain. And within the frequency limitation no microphone can pick up music as well as the human ears(assuming u got a pair of healthy ears!)

And the most obvious reason is that the speakers working within the listening space and environment will NEVER be able to produce the live music in the full scale and accurately simply because it is technically impossible. Imagine the entire SSO performing a concert right in your room! And technically, frequency extremes, which is crucial for liveness, is limited by the frequency response of the speakers and the room size and the accoustic.

My post is not to challenge any differing views but to show why I personally think trying to get your hifi to sound exactly like live music will be futile. Having said these, I do agree that there is nothing even close compared to live music. I remeber that at one time during my lunch break I pass by the Victoria Theatre. There was a student group performing live some chinese orchestra pieces at the entrance area. I did not on my hi fi set for quite a whjile after experiencing the live performance! The diff between recorded music and live music is simply light years aprt iiregardless of what set up.

So does this mean I and some of you should give up our hifi set ? No. I think we should hold on to our gears and continue to squeeze more juice of of them .

For cost and practical reasons we can never be able to listen to all the performance live. And there is a hoards of great past performance including those who are deceased. My current criteria for owning a audio setup is simply to within my means and practicality, to achieved a sonic performance standard that will enable me to feel as close as possible to the performance. Sinple but nost easy to achieve!

Hope some can benefit from my posting. And if Heifez and Elvis were to rsurrect and hold a concert I will go for it.

 

 

Regards

But how r u goin to know how the original is supposed to sound?

 

i don't think i can tell

Yes very valid points from everyone which brings us back to square one. How do set up a system with reference to live music??

The same Erhu played in VCH will sound diff when played in your listening room (although the Erhu will still sound like Erhu and not guitar) so trying to mimic a live sound is difficult and almost impossible. So how do we arrive at our system?

Most will audition components within our budget, listen to others ourside our budget and chances is to select a component within our budget that sound closest to our 'dream' components!!! So we have comments that my pre cost 20% of the MBL 6010 and has 80% of the MBL sound. when u think carefully, the statement holds 'no water' becos u cannot measure sound with $$$. Even comments that my $4k system sounds like 80% of the $100k MBL system also holds no water. How abt a violinist saying his make in China $500 violin sounds like 80% of a Stradivari costing $2 million????

 

So we go back to our faithful system which we have assembled thru lots of efforts and enjoy music immensely regardless of costs. I have heard $100k plus system at Elpa showroom and come home thinking that my system sounded better. A dangerous thought because if I were to set up my system in Elpa's showroom, my system may 'sucks' like crazy or sound even more 'heavenly'. The reason is the msot important component in hi fi reproduction, that of the room acoustic is different. The same ML system if set up in my room may blast my system to JB but I will not know becos I do not think I could ever afford such a system to find out. So what is my point? When we are listening to another system whether in the showroom or a pow wow session, we must think, evaluate and learn but not make unfounded comments. system matching, room acoustics etc plays a huge part in the sound reproduced. It is only by accepting that most components sound good, that there are many fine products out there, and if it sounded bad chances is it is mismatched that we can go forward. In other words, the components are innocent unless proven guilty attitude will make us learn and not continue to criticize the components and upgrading to more expensive ones while all the time, it is your room playing all sorts of tricks!!

 

Veering off course here and another long post.

Sorry folks and enjoy the music!