The lowdown on Loricraft RCM ;personal experiences- what advantages/disadvantages

[-chippy-]

firstly my apologies if this has been discussed at any great length before, i searched but couldn't find anything save a few passing recommendations and comments. elsewhere on the net mostly what i have come across is basically people saying its the "best", whether they personally own it or not. Also i am coming across some conflicting information (which i'll get into later)..so i thought i'd ask in my own backyard, here at SNA, even though its understandable that not many of us would own such an expensive machine or have access to one

down to it

to begin with, if anyone that should happen to own one of these units could share their experiences with it, perhaps point out the (their own personal) operation/routine of using the machine, perhaps highlighting any problems or something that might improve it. (i.e. does the lid lift up like the Kmonks-to fit the collection jar underneath?)

also what recipes and/or cleaning products they use and where they purchase them from

what are the disadvantages and advantages? on the left is obviously price but what else? also i am led to believe that they are quiet, the PRC4 more so than the PRC3, still i would find it hard to believe you would want one running while you have an LP playing? (which is something i have read around the www quite a few times!)

in addition, it is often said around the net that the advantage of the Loricraft is, that unlike other RCM where brushes (felt or other material) touch the surface of the record, the vacuum nib/nozzle of the loricraft does not (giving it a distinct advantage). that info seems conflicting to me because whilst the nozzle is held away from the surface of the vinyl by a #30 thread that thread in-fact touches (which must be nylon because cotton causes static-but who makes nylon thread now?), surely this thread is just as damaging (if any damage is deemed to occur) to the vinyl as a few fibres of velvet (from the pads of other RCM)? obviously if the velvet pads get clogged with dirt it would defeat their ability to clean effectively, becoming abrasive, but lets assume that most people would be sensible enough to clean them regularly.

also around the net i find some conflicting information on how the thread is used in the machine. On one hand i have read that the thread is constantly renewed as the vinyl spins on the machine, thereby always presenting clean thread to the vinyl surface (as the original KMonks machine did that used a separate motor for the thread feed i believe), it would appear it also collects dirt (since the waste thread becomes dirty). however on the other hand, from some sites that sell the unit they say that only a 1/4 inch of thread is used per LP so thousands of LP's can be cleaned per spool of thread, but only clean thread should be used

. seems to me that if the thread becomes dirty from a particularly dirty Op shop record it could quickly damage the vinyl before it got to the end of the LP?

could the thread itself cause any damage to the inside of the grooves, in my minds eye i have this picture of the nylon thread riding around scraping against the sides of the grooves flattening out the bumps that make the sound? like running sandpaper around the grooves, which if the thread was dirty would n't be that far off, it might sound somewhat over dramatic but its just to draw a mental picture for the sake of a description.

another point one of the places that sell the loricraft made was once a record was deep cleaned with a loricraft if placed in new clean sleeves etc, then there is no need to clean that LP ever again..which begs the question should people bother buying these at all for personal use unless their collection is well over a thousand or two, perhaps just an audiophile club in each city or even SNA (or a couple of key members) should have one or two that gets shared (for a nominal fee) or is available in some way to members...just thinking out loud is all..seems a bit silly to have an expensive record cleaner for 10-50 albums a year..some ppl more no doubt, some ppl less also

thoughts?

Cheers

Chippy

P.S where is the cheapest place to get one?

Edited August 17, 2011 by -chippy-

[proftournesol]

IIRC, PMG have sold Loricraft, speak to Mondie.

[Guest Spotter]

PM Sent

Have FUN!

Spotter

[rovellas]

IIRC, PMG have sold Loricraft, speak to Mondie.

PM Sent Have FUN! Spotter

Damn! - looks like not a particularly 'public' response to chippy's questions.

(Perhaps both responses are just to his 'P.S' ?)

I am interested in the same issues - especially the differences (or otherwise) between a vacuum system clean and a thread-cleaning machine like a Loricraft.

Can anyone with experience of both, comment 'on the record' so to speak ?

[rovellas]

I've looked into this a little bit, although never used a Loricraft.

My take on it would be

• Don't worry about the thread - it wont harm any vinyl. Contrary to what many believe, the thread does not get "in" the record groove, although you are right, the contact is definitely there between the nozzle and the vinyl.
  
• Collection jar is at the side - not as elegant as a Keith Monks, but not as expensive either
  
• Way, way quieter than anything that uses a vacuum in it. You can hear it running here - http://garrard501.com/cleaneraudio.html
  
• I have heard many people say that Loricraft/Monks clean better - audibly, sonically better - than any vacuum system. Hence my interest, if true, I guess.
  
• I had a solo piano LP that I could never clean free of clicks and ticks. After 3 treatments on the VPI 16.5, I gave up on it, later mailing with some other stuff to a friend in the UK. He reported cleaning it on a Loricraft PRC3 and it coming up with zero background noise. I made a careful, confused note.
  
• You're right that it is a pretty insane purchase for only a few hundred LPs or less. Especially if you're sourcing from op shops etc - I would guess some of the filthy vinyl would need to be cleaned 'before being cleaned' .
  
• To address your last point - once clean - via whatever method you choose - no need to ever clean again if you treat them with care. Carbon fibre brush for surface dust is all they should ever need, world without end, amen. If you treat them with care.
  

There's a lot on Record Cleaning Machines here on the forum - nothing that I've discovered [yet] that's directly comparative between Loricraft/Monks style cleaning vs VPI/Kuzma/Nitty Gritty/NZRCM vacuum style cleaning though.

Edited August 20, 2011 by rovellas

[TP1]

The Loricraft/ keith Monks style of cleaner are pretty pricey and the would need to be better than the other record cleaners to be worth it. However, I have never had an issue with the VPI 16.5, other than potential static build up during the vacuum cycle. A side by side comparo would be nice though.

[Full Range]

Sorry never owned one but seen one used

I was very impressed, it worked realy good so much so that it prompted me to start looking in all directions for my own vacuum type RCM

I eventually found one via here on SNA a no nonsense record cleaning machine that doesn't cost the earth led me to get a Kiwi RCM its a BYO vacuum type

FR

[Dr Good Vibe]

Ditto FR......

[-chippy-]

thanks for the replies guys, every bit helps, and a special thanks to Spotter and rovellas whom, each in there own way from different aspects provided amazing insightful help and support i think (behind the scenes) , for quite some time i might add, its been a pleasure to get to know you

cheers

chippy, happy to buy these guys a drink

Edited September 5, 2011 by -chippy-

[jeromelang]

i bought the prc3 last year, and a couple of weeks later bought the cheaper spin-dry cleaner

[ATTACH=CONFIG]35797[/ATTACH]

both units reside in the kitchen, and never allowed in the listening room.

reason being, any motor devices in near proximity to audio systems tend to affect the sound reproduction quality adversely.

i managed to find a nice storage rack that takes both of them nicely and with a closed compartment for storing outer and inner sleeves.

i had an arcylic cover made for the prc3 which fits over nicely protecting the surfaces from dusts and grease (also a nice fabric wrap over it when not in use)

the arcylic cover have an opening on the right side for the drainage tube.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]35798[/ATTACH]

i also managed to cut a piece of foam that is shaped like a miniature stool for the vacuum arm to sit on, so that its nozzle and thread are never in contact with dirty surfaces.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]35800[/ATTACH]

the prc3 is used purely as a vacuum dryer.

the cheaper spin-dry cleaner, with a trough for collecting dirty water, is used for the bulk of the cleaning, and scrubing (where necessary).

that's because when spreading water over the prc3, a lot of the water tend to spill over the sides.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]35799[/ATTACH]

so after the LP is washed, i'll transfer it onto the prc3 for vacuum dry when it is still wet.

this allow the thin thread just below the vacuum nozzle of the prc3 to stay moist, and not cause any static issue when it goes through the entire side that is being vacuum'd dry.

i only use distilled water.

the art du son solution provided by lorricraft is found to imbue the record it cleans with a rising top end, making the record bright and not pleasant to listen to.

it will take a few rinsing cycles to remove the residual brightness left over from the art du son solution.

advantages of the prc3:

1. pretty good cleaning results, although i found that the ultrasonic cleaner still does it better.

but of course that ultrasonic machine is more expensive and not entirely reliable, and it's factory is not responsive enough.

disadvantage of prc3:

1. you have to watch it constantly, unlike the ultrasonic cleaner which is fully automatic.

2. the magnetic vaccum arm has a 'lag" behaviour, so you always make sure that its arm is being swing'd all the way out before being placed at the start (record edge) of the LP.

not doing so will make the arm "jump" hurridly towards the inner grooves and potentially glossing over some areas.

3. after feeding new area of the thread, you should always make sure the thread is pulled (by suction power) taut so that some lag thread is not exposed loosely underneath the vacuum nozzle.

this may allow the nozzle to come into contact with the surface of the record, potentially causing scratches.

Edited September 7, 2011 by jeromelang
grammer

[TP1]

1. you have to watch it constantly, unlike the ultrasonic cleaner which is fully automatic.

2. the magnetic vaccum arm has a 'lag" behaviour, so you always make sure that its arm is being swing'd all the way out before being placed at the start (record edge) of the LP.

not doing so will make the arm "jump" hurridly towards the inner grooves and potentially glossing over some areas.

3. after feeding new area of the thread, you should always make sure the thread is pulled (by suction power) taut so that some lag thread is not exposed loosely underneath the vacuum nozzle.

this may allow the nozzle to come into contact with the surface of the record, potentially causing scratches.

How long does it take to clean a record on both sides with that machine?

[Sir Triode]

It should be 2mins. 1min per side. It says so on the Loricraft site.