Robertoh Posted November 2, 2020 Posted November 2, 2020 (edited) Hi all I'm a newbie here so pls be nice. Also I'm aware of some discussion of Dual idler drives elsewhere in this forum, so forgive me if I should be posting there, or linking there to here, or whatever... OK, getting to the point: I acquired a one-owner 1219 a few months ago from a deceased estate. I am a bit of a sucker for mechanical complexity from the late '60s - early '70s (I owned and adored a Citroen GS from that era for 8 years) but I am mechanically/electrically inept, so I would be very grateful for some advice from those who run 1219s and similar Duals, please. My new/old 1219 hasn't been used for about 30 years and is looking quite gummed-up underneath, but otherwise appears in very good condition with what I think is probably the original Shure (V15?) catridge/stylus. It looks in very good physical condition, and has the original pastic dustcover lid as well, and the original tonearm. It doesn't have the record-stacking spindle, unfortunately. I understand thease beasties require some careful and thorough rejuvenation and periodic servicing to give their best, and that I musn't force anything that feels stuck. I think it's stuck on the 45rpm setting. (The LiquidAudio blog from Perth has a great piece on restoring a 1219 but I'm in Melbourne and can't get mine to Perth easily.) Does anyone have a trusted turntable technician they can recommend in Melbourne who could service this properly for me, please? I don't want to risk its lovely mechanics on someone who doesn't know what they're doing. It's been sitting unused because we went into COVID lockdown soon after I bought it so I haven't been able to take it out to someone who can give it the right attention. Also, do you have any suggestions, please on: 1. An affordable quality replacement cartdrige/stylus, if I need one (not sure yet because I haven't used it yet) 2. Any tips for mounting it to minimise extraneous noise / vibration etc. 3. Does it need any kind of earthing/grounding to eliminate hum inteference to amp/speaker wires? (This seems to be an issue with my wife's simpler belt-drive '70s AGS turntable, that she's carried around for decades, and so she seems not to notice the hum, but I do ....) The amps to be used with this are '70s period Rotels: a tiny little RA-210 my wife has carted around for decades and an RX-402 that I acquired more recently. Thanks very much Rob Edited November 2, 2020 by Robertoh
Guest Old Man Rubber Posted November 2, 2020 Posted November 2, 2020 The 1219 has springs that hold the table clear from the plinth. Being an idler drive they will always rumble a bit more than a belt but if its really noticeable something is worn out. If you end up with an earth hum, a decent tech can add back the grounding wire, it should have one or at least the stub of one visible. Is your 1219 in a plinth already? This thread at vinylengine has a discussion on potential cartridges https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?t=91395
Robertoh Posted November 4, 2020 Author Posted November 4, 2020 (edited) On 2/11/2020 at 8:01 PM, Old Man Rubber said: The 1219 has springs that hold the table clear from the plinth. Being an idler drive they will always rumble a bit more than a belt but if its really noticeable something is worn out. If you end up with an earth hum, a decent tech can add back the grounding wire, it should have one or at least the stub of one visible. Is your 1219 in a plinth already? This thread at vinylengine has a discussion on potential cartridges https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?t=91395 Hi OMR Many thanks for your interest and suggestions, and the link to the vinylengine discussion. I'm adding some pix of my Dual for your enjoyment/info. Seems to look very original? What I was thinking more about rumble (should it have it - remember I haven't run it yet) was: should I sit the whole plinth on top of some sort of mat to dampen vibration and noise? If so, any recommendations? I noticed the 1219's power plug doesn't have an earth pin and seems to be the old Euro sort (two parallel flat blades), potentially for plugging directly to power outlet on an amp of that era? (As on our litle old Rotel RA-210.) Is that a desirable approach "these days", or should I get a new power cable added to the 1219? And it seems to be marked for 220V not 240V? Is that a problem in Oz? Now that I have a closer pic of the cartridge and stylus, I can read Shure Hi Track but nothing else... yes, it does look kind of furry, doesn't it? I've not attempted to clean or use it yet, and it was in a garage for most of past 30 years... Still keen to hear any recommendations for a Dual-capable turntable servicing person in Melbourne. many thanks, Rob Edited November 4, 2020 by Robertoh typo 1
Guest Old Man Rubber Posted November 4, 2020 Posted November 4, 2020 Here is a thread on the power supply. That plug is meant for somewhere else other than Australia - it might be worth checking that the speed pulley is the correct one for 50hz operation. The voltage at 220 is probably OK but the speed is determined by the A/C phase and there won't be enough adjustment in the speed trim to correct from 60hz to 50hz if that is what the table is set up for.
Robertoh Posted January 5, 2021 Author Posted January 5, 2021 (edited) Update on what I did next... Wishing all readers a happy 2021! I thought I should let you know that I was able to get some excellent and very reasonably priced help servicing my Dual 1219 from the very pleasant and helpful team at Open Ear Audio in Fairfield, Melbourne https://openearaudio.com/turntable-repair-service We've fitted one of the new(ish) Audio Technica AT-VM95ML cartridges to it with the ML microlinear stylus, which seems a very good match. Now I just need to find some way to stop the Dual's sprung suspension wobbling with footsteps across our very wobbly timber floor. I'm hesitant about winding on more weight on the tonearm because the Open Ear chaps have done such a good job setting it up to the Dual and AT specs ... I might just have to move it to a more stable room. Any suggestions for a suitable rack or shelving system? Cheers & best wishes, Rob Edited January 11, 2021 by Robertoh corrected model of cartridge & stylus to AT-VM95ML
Robertoh Posted January 5, 2021 Author Posted January 5, 2021 On 05/11/2020 at 7:05 AM, Old Man Rubber said: Here is a thread on the power supply. That plug is meant for somewhere else other than Australia - it might be worth checking that the speed pulley is the correct one for 50hz operation. The voltage at 220 is probably OK but the speed is determined by the A/C phase and there won't be enough adjustment in the speed trim to correct from 60hz to 50hz if that is what the table is set up for. The power supply plug is the type used with the switched AC power outlet on the back on many 1970s amps. We checked it out and it is working perfectly with the switched power outlet on our vintage Rotel amps (RA-210 and RX-402).
Guest Old Man Rubber Posted January 5, 2021 Posted January 5, 2021 6 minutes ago, Robertoh said: The power supply plug is the type used with the switched AC power outlet on the back on many 1970s amps. We checked it out and it is working perfectly with the switched power outlet on our vintage Rotel amps (RA-210 and RX-402). That's good as long as the 'table is close enough to the amps. To get around the wooden floor issue you could consider a cantilevered wall shelf - walls don't tend to move around quite as much in older houses. Ultimate upgrade is to ditch that house and buy something with a concrete floor
audiofeline Posted January 5, 2021 Posted January 5, 2021 Congratulations on the turntable, it's not a bad model. The AT95 is a good cart for this quality of turntable. I can relate to the problem with the floorboard footsteps, I've had that problem before. You are correct to leave the tracking weight of the cart to what it's set at. Some possible solutions: Put the TT on a solid wall shelf if you can (as suggested above, probably the best fix). Move the TT/stereo to another place in the room which isn't as affected. Ensure that what you have the TT sitting on is solid - a flimsy table will amplify floorboard movements Screw plywood sheeting above the relevant floor area. Adding mass would also help, eg. stone sheeting. Get the house re-stumpted. If it relates to the problem, put chocks between the floorboards and joists. Walk extremely carefully when playing a record.
Robertoh Posted January 11, 2021 Author Posted January 11, 2021 Thanks for suggestions, folks. Unfortunately it's a rented house and I can't drill into the walls to afix a shelf sufficiently securely/safely, nor can I modify the flooring or restump the house (which is what is really needed), and I can't access the underside of the house to place chocks between the floorboards and joists (which was a creative suggestion!). The Dual TT is located on quite a heavy large timber bench / cabinet, and I was surprised that the vibration/bouncing was being passed through such a heavy and substantial cabinet. Also to my surprise, it seems the Dual's sprung suspension is conducting or amplifying floor vibration, because my wife's simpler non-suspended AGS belt-drive TT does not seem to show as much sensitivity to foot traffic when located on the same bench/cabinet in the same room. I am going to try moving the Dual TT and some of the stereo gear to another room, although it will have to be on a much lighter table in that room, so that may introduce more problems... Looks like I will have to learn to tread more lightly and slowly, and reduce my footfall below my usual galloping-Clydesdale thumping. Does anyone have any recommendations or experience with any of the commercially available isolation products that they can share, or any home-made alternatives? Cheers, Rob
audiofeline Posted January 11, 2021 Posted January 11, 2021 There are a lot of DIY approaches that have proven worthwhile for many, at a fraction of the cost of commercial products. eg. A cheap and well-regarded solution by many is to sit the turntable on squash balls. Rest the squash balls in milk-bottle lids so they don't roll around. If it works in your setup, you can then spray-paint the lids black so they don't look too bad. If the base of the turntable is open, you can sit it on a bamboo kitchen chopping board and have the squash balls underneath. Or you could get a bamboo kitchen chopping board large enough to sit your turntable on, and put a small half-inflated tire tube underneath. Another approach - the TNT Sandblaster adds mass with sand to absorb vibrations, directions to make can be found here: https://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/sandblaster_e.html These are all good approaches to try, and have been good for some and not for others. Success (or not) for you will depend on the multitude of factors in your situation (the room, your furniture and turntable). They are not hugely expensive to try, and experimentation is the name of the game. 1
Robertoh Posted January 11, 2021 Author Posted January 11, 2021 13 minutes ago, audiofeline said: There are a lot of DIY approaches that have proven worthwhile for many, at a fraction of the cost of commercial products. eg. A cheap and well-regarded solution by many is to sit the turntable on squash balls. Rest the squash balls in milk-bottle lids so they don't roll around. If it works in your setup, you can then spray-paint the lids black so they don't look too bad. If the base of the turntable is open, you can sit it on a bamboo kitchen chopping board and have the squash balls underneath. Or you could get a bamboo kitchen chopping board large enough to sit your turntable on, and put a small half-inflated tire tube underneath. Another approach - the TNT Sandblaster adds mass with sand to absorb vibrations, directions to make can be found here: https://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/sandblaster_e.html These are all good approaches to try, and have been good for some and not for others. Success (or not) for you will depend on the multitude of factors in your situation (the room, your furniture and turntable). They are not hugely expensive to try, and experimentation is the name of the game. Thanks very much for your suggestions. Something that puzzled me (perhaps unnecessarily) was whether some of the various isolation options would make much difference to a TT like the Dual, which already has 3-point sprung suspension in its platform/plinth. The pix that I see of various commercial and DIY options seem to involve unsuspended TTs, so I can imagine that the squash ball technique and similar would help isolate those. But if the TT is already sprung, I'm wondering whether more suspension (of whatever method) will just make the whole setup even more roly-poly. I think isolation is the key characteristic I'm seeking. I guess I can try the squash ball technique as a cheap and quick option. I will advise whether it helps. Cheers, Rob
audiofeline Posted January 11, 2021 Posted January 11, 2021 The bottom line is that unwanted energy is being transmitted to the Dual, and the internal suspension - while generally quite adequate - is being overwhelmed by your "extreme" circumstances. So anything that reduces the energy transmission would help, and given that the ideal treatment isn't viable in your situation (ie, fixing the floorboard problem, or avoiding it with a wall mount), you might find multiple options (each contributing small fixes) provide your best solution. For example, there are some here who have layers of a solid table/cabinet, with a block of stone (to give mass), then squash balls or inner tube, then bamboo block, then the tt (or variations of this). Re "roly-poly" squash balls. If you have them sitting in bottle-tops, they won't roll around, and your tt won't roll on top of it. Some people prefer to use balls cut in half. There's also debate (as there always is in audio circles) as to which hardness of squash ball works best (I'll leave it for you to google these threads). Good luck. 1
audiofeline Posted January 11, 2021 Posted January 11, 2021 (edited) Another thing you can try (suggested in another thread here) is to put the legs of your cabinet under the "Whites" anti-vibration pads (a few dollars from Bunnings). They won't do anything for the rocking, but may be another intervention in the chain to tone-down the vibration transmission. There's 8 in the pack, so you might try 4 under the cabinet legs and 4 under the tt. Edited January 11, 2021 by audiofeline 1 1
muon* Posted January 11, 2021 Posted January 11, 2021 That original cart was maybe a Shure M91ED, a decent cart. 1
audiofeline Posted January 11, 2021 Posted January 11, 2021 1 hour ago, muon* said: That original cart was maybe a Shure M91ED, a decent cart. Yes, and there are probably 3rd-party replacement styli available that won't break the bank. 1 1
Colin Rutter Posted January 15, 2021 Posted January 15, 2021 I have a PE 2020 which is very similar (Dual took over PE later on). Perhaps you could make up foam inserts for the springs. The problem with the sprung TTs is that the suspension is for acoustic isolation not damping huge shocks like footfall. You will get a better isolation if you put sorbothane pads under the top plate and wind off the springs and let it rest on the pads.
Robertoh Posted January 21, 2021 Author Posted January 21, 2021 Thanks for the suggestion, Colin. Cheers, Rob 1
Robertoh Posted January 21, 2021 Author Posted January 21, 2021 On 11/01/2021 at 6:01 PM, audiofeline said: Yes, and there are probably 3rd-party replacement styli available that won't break the bank. Thanks for your interest and suggestions, Muon and Audiofeline. As noted earlier in the thread, we've fitted one of the new(ish) Audio Technica AT-VM95ML cartridges with the ML microlinear stylus, which seems a very good match. Not the cheapest option (there are cheaper elliptical stylii for that cartridge) but not the outlandishly expensive, either, and it's digging good details from old LPs, given the limitations in the rest of my system. I think that old Shure EM91ED cartridge and stylus hit the bin so upgrading its stylus may be a lost option. .... Oh well.
audiofeline Posted January 21, 2021 Posted January 21, 2021 The AT VM95ML is a good cartridge, and I would expect it to work well in this system.
klackto Posted January 21, 2021 Posted January 21, 2021 Rather than adding more compliance under the turntable which may help a bit or could actually make it worse. I would try wedging something between the wall and the back of the cabinet that he turntable is sitting on. This bracing will reduce movement of the cabinet ... using the wall for stability without you needing to drill any holes in it.
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