Recommended speakers for the Leben CS300/X/XS

[danter]

So it's probably a similar situation to my amps and speakers then - not super load, but hits anywhere up to 90db and thus loud enough for all intents and purposes, just less "headroom" (couldn't think of a better word) than say, a SS unit.

I think you summed that up perfectly!

[valvelover]

I think you summed that up perfectly!

Yay, I'm learning! Go me!!!

[sir sanders zingmore]

So it's probably a similar situation to my amps and speakers then - not super load, but hits anywhere up to 90db and thus loud enough for all intents and purposes, just less "headroom" (couldn't think of a better word) than say, a SS unit.

It seems to me that there are two discussions happening here about the Leben+ML1 combo. One is about whether it is a 'good' combo - that is, is there some kind of synergy that some people love. The other is whether the Leben is powerful enough to drive the ML1s to their full capacity.

Seems to me that it might be simultaneously a great comination and also not powerful enough.

I'm making no sense right?

I think technically the Leben is not powerful enough - there is talk of it going 'loud enough' but sacrificing bass control and headroom in order to do so. Surely this is simply a result of the amp not having enough in reserve.

Having said that, there seem to be enough people who, despite this, love the combination. I've not heard it but I assume there is some magic there that wows listeners - I hope to hear it one day for myself.

In the meantime, as a wise man once said 'if it sounds better to you, it is better'

[Phantom]

Se ya on the flip side Bear, don't let the door hit your arse on the way out.

Also, your words "much sooner than you'd like", well an ideal time frame would be yesterday, but today will do.

Keith, you are pretty arrogant to think that I was blown away with joy to stick on your site ... I will leave your site much sooner than you'd like.

Bear.

[tricka]

as a wise man once said 'if it sounds better to you, it is better'

To true: I like it was part of Linn's early marketing campaign - a quote of Ivor's - which is ironic given he believed nothing but his stuff sounded any good.

[bhobba]

Yay, I'm learning! Go me!!!

Absolutely. Its really great you are coming to grips with this stuff - I have these discussions every now and then and its fantastic when people persevere enough to get to the bottom of it. Bottom line is don't dismiss an amp just because it looks as if it might not have enough power - give it a listen first after you have done some simple calculations such as using the calculator I gave the link to. 85db with 9db headroom is plenty loud - not loud enough for heavy rock or metal played at 95-100db which that type of music likes along with in your face bass slam - but more than enough for most material.

Thanks

Bill

Edited February 28, 2011 by bhobba

[Bronal]

I doubt whether 9dB of headroom is adequate.

I would reckon on at least 20dB, more for symphonic works with significant crescendos. Any recording that doesn't need more than 9dB can't be very dynamic IMO.

[ehtcom]

I agree Bronal.

I like 12db to 15db headroom with valves, and 18db to 20db with solid state.

Valve amps soft clip so less headroom is needed.

Cheers, Earle.

[tricka]

back to topic - I reckon the 47 Labs Lens would be a great match with the Leben.

[sir sanders zingmore]

I agree Bronal.

I like 12db to 15db headroom with valves, and 18db to 20db with solid state.

Valve amps soft clip so less headroom is needed.

Cheers, Earle.

Couple of ignorant questions here: how do you come up with 12-15dB headroom - what does that mean?

And, is there a way to translate that into amplifier power (given a known efficiency speaker)

[zipstartcanoe]

back to topic - I reckon the 47 Labs Lens would be a great match with the Leben.

Haven't heard the combo, but it is something I'd like to try.

[ehtcom]

No worries Whatmore.

I have found from a little experiment I did.

I set up a 60wpc valve amp and a 60wpc solid state amplifier.

Upped the volume until I could hear audible clipping on a couple of loud peaks played over and over (well recorded cd, not badly compressed like some) then backed off volume until it was just audible.

The valve amp played at an average level ~13db below 60 watts, the solid state was ~18db.

So back to our 3db for every doubling of output power. If we are driving our amp at 2wpc average, we would need an amp with 40wpc to allow 13db headroom to cater for the loud peaks in the music.

My own speakers are 99db for 1 watt, my amp is 9wpc, I listen at an average level of 0.08w to 0.1w, I have close to 20db headroom.

To maintain the same headroom with 86db speakers I would need an amplifier with 180wpc.

IMO a good match for the Leben would be VAF DCX, or DC-7's, or Klipsch heritage series, even some of their bookshelf speakers are 92db to 96db. Some of the high efficiency Wharfedale speakers if chasing second hand, though I think most of them are now residing in a SNA members home somewhere in S.A. The older Tannoy dual concentric Monitor golds or HPD's (91db to 93db and better if in GRF enclosure). DIY horns running Fostex, Lowther, Tang-band.

Plenty of options,

Cheers, Earle.

Edited February 28, 2011 by ehtcom

[bhobba]

Couple of ignorant questions here: how do you come up with 12-15dB headroom - what does that mean? And, is there a way to translate that into amplifier power (given a known efficiency speaker)

It means what you need on peaks vs average volume. You may listen at say 85 db but every now and then something louder but only lasing a short time will come along and you need a bit of power in reserve to handle it. Opinions vary but from my reading of the literature and my experience (I have never seen anything over 10db headroom on the meter in Pure Music that measures it) an extra 10 times the power (which is 10db) is adequate. I have given this link many times:

http://www.ellisaudio.com/wattsratings.htm

'Most often we listen to 2-3 watts of nominal power through our speakers. The peaks are obviously higher (5x - 10x nominal), and some headroom is needed'

Actually looking at the meter in Pure Music is interesting. You see not only the peaks that come along but the average also varies - that 85db is during consistently loud passages.

Also check out:

http://www.6moons.com/industryfeatures/headroom/headroom.html

'Anyone who's ever made compilations on CD recorders with meters for recording levels knows how pathetically compressed most modern recordings are. Many of them are lucky to make three bars of 3dB each flicker during the recording session. 20 to 30dB peaks of the kind Marcel references do routinely occur on classical music when well recorded.'

Think about a headroom of 20-30db through 16bit audio - that's in the realm of 7 bits headroom ie your music is recorded on the average at 9 bits resolution which would sound ghastly and no recording engineer would do it - they would reduce the headroom to something more realistic and do a bit of clipping which is not as audible as you might think. Valves also handle clipping more gracefully which is why I believe 9db headroom is fine on valve gear.

But as the other responses show opinions vary so as always check it out for yourself by listening to it as Danter did and make up your own mind.

Thanks

Bill

Edited February 28, 2011 by bhobba

[Henry Vu]

What about some of the higher sensitivity full range drivers?

If you're not game on building a cab yourself, perhaps something like the Omega range?

[PorkBun69s]

What about some of the higher sensitivity full range drivers?

If you're not game on building a cab yourself, perhaps something like the Omega range?

PM sent Kunal re: high sensitivity full range speakers

[Guest]

IMO a good match for the Leben would be VAF DCX, or DC-7's, or Klipsch heritage series, even some of their bookshelf speakers are 92db to 96db. Some of the high efficiency Wharfedale speakers if chasing second hand, though I think most of them are now residing in a SNA members home somewhere in S.A. The older Tannoy dual concentric Monitor golds or HPD's (91db to 93db and better if in GRF enclosure). DIY horns running Fostex, Lowther, Tang-band.

Plenty of options,

Cheers, Earle.

Hi Earle

A couple other 2nd hand & new options ,Triangle ,Cabasse Farella400 and Audio Note range.

Cheers

[soundfan]

What about some of the higher sensitivity full range drivers?

If you're not game on building a cab yourself, perhaps something like the Omega range?

I agree. Something like the Omega Hoyt Bedford Type 1 might be a great match. I'm going to try and grab a listen to a pair via Tony (Audioaddiction) soonish.

Chris

[sir sanders zingmore]

No worries Whatmore.

I have found from a little experiment I did.

I set up a 60wpc valve amp and a 60wpc solid state amplifier.

Upped the volume until I could hear audible clipping on a couple of loud peaks played over and over (well recorded cd, not badly compressed like some) then backed off volume until it was just audible.

The valve amp played at an average level ~13db below 60 watts, the solid state was ~18db.

So back to our 3db for every doubling of output power. If we are driving our amp at 2wpc average, we would need an amp with 40wpc to allow 13db headroom to cater for the loud peaks in the music.

My own speakers are 99db for 1 watt, my amp is 9wpc, I listen at an average level of 0.08w to 0.1w, I have close to 20db headroom.

To maintain the same headroom with 86db speakers I would need an amplifier with 180wpc.

IMO a good match for the Leben would be VAF DCX, or DC-7's, or Klipsch heritage series, even some of their bookshelf speakers are 92db to 96db. Some of the high efficiency Wharfedale speakers if chasing second hand, though I think most of them are now residing in a SNA members home somewhere in S.A. The older Tannoy dual concentric Monitor golds or HPD's (91db to 93db and better if in GRF enclosure). DIY horns running Fostex, Lowther, Tang-band.

Plenty of options,

Cheers, Earle.

I'm wondering if 20dB is enough headroom. I think we seriously underestimate how much power can be required to drive speakers properly

My 50w amp was clipping on my 97dB 1m/1W speakers. According to Bill's SPL calculator at about 8 feet away from my speakers I should have been able to achieve a peak SPL of about 109dB. I often listen at 80-85 db but sometimes as high as 90 or a touch higher. But even at around 85dB I felt that there wasn't much in reserve

Edited March 2, 2011 by Whatmore

[bhobba]

I'm wondering if 20dB is enough headroom. I think we seriously underestimate how much power can be required to drive speakers properly

My 50w amp was clipping on my 97dB 1m/1W speakers. According to Bill's SPL calculator at about 8 feet away from my speakers I should have been able to achieve a peak SPL of about 109dB. I often listen at 80-85 db but sometimes as high as 90 or a touch higher. But even at around 85dB I felt that there wasn't much in reserve

Well lets just take 20db headroom as the baseline for the best recorded material (I have heard it may in fact get up to 30db) and take the power requirements for your average 85db speakers to produce an average of 90db. To accommodate that you would need power to produce a peak of 110db. Lets look at what that handy calculator of mine says you require for that - you need 800 watts. It is doubtful many have amplifiers of that sort of power - so how do they get away with it? Simple - a small amount of clipping is simply inaudible - especially for valve amps which soft clip and can tolerate greater clipping before trouble occurs. Actually in my experience very few recordings have 20db headroom - it is something more like 10db - in real life peaks like that probably occur but recording engineers know they are basically inaudible and probably don't usually worry about preserving that type of headroom. This means you only need something like an 80W amp and if you limit yourself to lower levels than 90db and use a valve amp with its soft clipping means you can get by with a measly 15W.

Of course this is just conjecture on why amps like the Leben sound as loud as they do with their puny watts - but it does seem reasonable.

Thanks

Bill

[ehtcom]

Hi Bill.

Get yourself a pair of these,

http://www.klipsch.com/na-en/products/la-scala-ii-specifications/

then you wont even need 4 watts to achieve 110db peaks

Cheers, Earle.

[gainphile]

Very nice... proper macho speakers !

What are their sensitivity?

[ehtcom]

Very nice... proper macho speakers !

What are their sensitivity?

105db for 1 watt

[ilikecrumpets]

It’s probably been said before, but Leben and Harbeth make a nice combo (wait on, I may have said it earlier in the thread...)

Here’s a thread from the WD forum with a few pics http://www.witchdoctor.co.nz/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1591#p1591

From a guy who has owned Passlabs/Shindo type gear with big Dynaudio C4’s, he’s saying he’s never enjoyed the sound of his system as much.

[Guest]

Hi Bill.

Get yourself a pair of these,

http://www.klipsch.com/na-en/products/la-scala-ii-specifications/

then you wont even need 4 watts to achieve 110db peaks

Cheers, Earle.

Yer ,but having more than 4 watts can sure clean up the bass & mid bass which cleans up the mid range .Atleast they allow you to step into the real triode world and not to worry about play around with triode strapped pentodes or tetrodes .

Cheers

[sir sanders zingmore]

Well lets just take 20db headroom as the baseline for the best recorded material (I have heard it may in fact get up to 30db) and take the power requirements for your average 85db speakers to produce an average of 90db. To accommodate that you would need power to produce a peak of 110db. Lets look at what that handy calculator of mine says you require for that - you need 800 watts. It is doubtful many have amplifiers of that sort of power - so how do they get away with it? Simple - a small amount of clipping is simply inaudible - especially for valve amps which soft clip and can tolerate greater clipping before trouble occurs. Actually in my experience very few recordings have 20db headroom - it is something more like 10db - in real life peaks like that probably occur but recording engineers know they are basically inaudible and probably don't usually worry about preserving that type of headroom. This means you only need something like an 80W amp and if you limit yourself to lower levels than 90db and use a valve amp with its soft clipping means you can get by with a measly 15W.

Of course this is just conjecture on why amps like the Leben sound as loud as they do with their puny watts - but it does seem reasonable.

Thanks

Bill

As I said I think we seriously underestimate how much power is required to drive most speakers without clipping. I think we agree there.

Where I'm not 100% with you is that it is 'simply inaudible'. I think it manifests as 'lack of headroom', 'could have a bit better bass control' etc etc

I am now driving my 97dB speakers with 500w. Maybe that's a bit of overkill but IMHO they sound amazingly good, better than they ever have, and I'd rather have too much in reserve than not enough