Roberts Posted January 3, 2007 Posted January 3, 2007 Currently I’m using 10 Meter pair of Kimber 4 Pr speaker cable and 1 meter of Eccose balanced interconnects. To find out if shorter speaker cable is better I’m going to setup mono blocks close to the front main speakers(This means 0.5 Meter of speaker cable) and Preamp in between the Front main speakers.(This means 2 Meters of balanced cable) I will l post the findings in couple of days. I’m finding it hard to locate a local source for balanced cable. Can anyone help?
JA Posted January 3, 2007 Posted January 3, 2007 Currently I’m using 10 Meter pair of Kimber 4 Pr speaker cable and 1 meter of Eccose balanced interconnects. To find out if shorter speaker cable is better I’m going to setup mono blocks close to the front main speakers(This means 0.5 Meter of speaker cable) and Preamp in between the Front main speakers.(This means 2 Meters of balanced cable) I will l post the findings in couple of days. I’m finding it hard to locate a local source for balanced cable. Can anyone help? [/b] Hello field, Since it is a bit of an experiment why not just use your 1m interconnects and 1/2 m speaker cables- this would result in about 3m between speakers. That way no outlay for your test. And 3m is a reasonable spacing for about 3m away. Even slightly longer speaker cable would be a good as a comparison- since you are comparing it to 10m of speaker cable in your current setup. No $- Try it. Best JA PS: (EDIT): For those with passive preamps - be careful with long interconnects (How long???), these will measurably roll off the top end, particularly those interconnects that are higher in capacitance.
Drizt Posted January 3, 2007 Posted January 3, 2007 Field, Allans sell XLR cables. I buy mine from HTcustomcables and get them delivered.
Phil G Posted January 4, 2007 Posted January 4, 2007 Hi Field, as Drizt said, HTcustomcables now supply XLR Interconnects at reasonable prices (and with a 10% discount for PA members).
Guest alebonau Posted January 4, 2007 Posted January 4, 2007 field even jaycar sell xlr cables as do RS electronics which sell some nice ones with quality nuetrik conectors. All music stores sell xlrs because theyre basically mic leads. you can buy them quite long no probs. When I had my mono blocs setup for 2ch I was using 3.5m long xlrs from pre to mono-blocs sitting near my mains and then short 0.5m speaker cables feedign the mains. Now I run long 6.5m rca's feedign my power amp (not a prob with my mf a5 pre which mf say can drive 30 foot lengths no probs) both i did for flexiblity of installation. the mono blocs near the mains means jsut needed source and pre in a rack. the long interconnects now between pre and power mean I can split my 2ch and ht gear where theyre installed. Not sure with the lengths were talkign your goign to find any sonic difference in yoru system but only way for you to knwo would be to try for yourself.
Guest RodN Posted January 4, 2007 Posted January 4, 2007 Yes don't forget though you need to be fully balanced from source to amp to achieve the benefits of balanced connections. If at any point you go to RCA there's no point (other than having a nicely made cable and having twisted pairs). http://www.dplay.com/dv/balance/balance.html "And a balanced connection works only if both ends are balanced. If either of the two internal wires are shorted to ground at either end, the whole thing becomes unbalanced. This can happen easily if: and from here: http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/audiop...unbalanced2.php "Note: In order for a balanced system to be effective in reducing common-mode noise not only must the interconnection cable be balanced, but the terminations must also be balanced. Using transformers or balanced amplifiers are two possible approaches to providing balanced terminations. A full discussion of the various ways to balance the terminations (and the advantages and disadvantages of each) is beyond the scope of this discussion."
Guest alebonau Posted January 4, 2007 Posted January 4, 2007 Yes don't forget though you need to be fully balanced from source to amp to achieve the benefits of balanced connections. If at any point you go to RCA there's no point (other than having a nicely made cable and having twisted pairs). http://www.dplay.com/dv/balance/balance.html "And a balanced connection works only if both ends are balanced. If either of the two internal wires are shorted to ground at either end, the whole thing becomes unbalanced. This can happen easily if: and from here: http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/audiop...unbalanced2.php "Note: In order for a balanced system to be effective in reducing common-mode noise not only must the interconnection cable be balanced, but the terminations must also be balanced. Using transformers or balanced amplifiers are two possible approaches to providing balanced terminations. A full discussion of the various ways to balance the terminations (and the advantages and disadvantages of each) is beyond the scope of this discussion." [/b] And need to keep in mind too that for most home setups and especially given the particualrly short cable lengths used balanced may not provide any audible benfit at all compared to say pro or commercial installations with long cable installations which are nightmares re interference from all sorts of sources. Theres a good paper on the arcam site with some good points. http://www.arcam.co.uk/downloads/finding%20the%20balance.pdf
Phil G Posted January 4, 2007 Posted January 4, 2007 Good on you Field for trying this. I really like the look of two sexy mono amps sitting along side their partnered L/R speakers. If nothing else, it will look good! :biggrin: I agree with Rod's info about having it all through the system, or don't bother. In the component manuals for my CD (Meridian) and pre (Sim Audio/Moon) and the SACD (Marantz), they state that the best connection is with the XLR connectors. Moon strongly emphasise this point on several occasions. On both balaced CD players, I note that the gain/volume is louder with XLR, compared to the RCA connection. Yet Arthur Rappos has told me that there is no difference between the XLR/RCA inputs on his power amp, so I think different manufacturers have different opinions in this issue. If you read the marketing/technical blurb each of the audio companies create, as developed by their wiz-bang electronics engineers, they have their reasoning for what they believe in, yet they vary so much. I also note that a brand like MF do not use XLR connectors for its range of components, so they clearly do not believe there is a benefit to be gained. Similarly, Focal - JM Lab do not allow for bi-wiring on their top end range of speakers.
Roberts Posted January 4, 2007 Author Posted January 4, 2007 Good on you Field for trying this. I really like the look of two sexy mono amps sitting along side their partnered L/R speakers. If nothing else, it will look good! :biggrin: I agree with Rod's info about having it all through the system, or don't bother. In the component manuals for my CD (Meridian) and pre (Sim Audio/Moon) and the SACD (Marantz), they state that the best connection is with the XLR connectors. Moon strongly emphasise this point on several occasions. On both balaced CD players, I note that the gain/volume is louder with XLR, compared to the RCA connection. Yet Arthur Rappos has told me that there is no difference between the XLR/RCA inputs on his power amp, so I think different manufacturers have different opinions in this issue. If you read the marketing/technical blurb each of the audio companies create, as developed by their wiz-bang electronics engineers, they have their reasoning for what they believe in, yet they vary so much. I also note that a brand like MF do not use XLR connectors for its range of components, so they clearly do not believe there is a benefit to be gained. Similarly, Focal - JM Lab do not allow for bi-wiring on their top end range of speakers. [/b] Thank you JA.I will try it first with the current balanced cable and if required may be use slightly longer speaker cable than 0.5M. Thanks for the link,Rod.Very informative indeed. Al,Luckdog and Drizt thank you for your assistance.
Roberts Posted January 8, 2007 Author Posted January 8, 2007 I had few days off work so I decided to rearrange my setup to find out shorter speaker cable and longer interconnect makes any difference in my setup. I got hold of a 10 year old Audioquest Type 2 speaker cable from my” Hifi Archive”. Cut in to 4 lengths of 0.5 meter each and hooked up to the Mono block at the rear of the main speaker. Because I couldn’t get hold of 2 meter Balanced interconnect RCA was used to connect pre amp to power amps, After firing up the change was quite audible from the start. I used Test CD 1 (Thanks to spearmint) track - 6 and the main audible difference was impact of bass line and added definition to midrange. I was bit surpried to hear the difference so I played the whole Test disk –1 followed by few of my favorites. The result was the same. More impact and definition. Not quite sure about the reason behind this improvement, I noted down the differences before and after. I thought may be the difference in resistance between the cables so I took both cables to work and got one of my friends to compare the resitance. Unfortunatly the equipment we have isn’t accurate enough and can only measure to 0.1 Ohm and both cables measured to 0.1 Ohm. So researched the net and found this brilliant article which explains all in detail.www.rdrop.com/~/twest/audio/index.html Conclusion: In my setup shorter speaker cable (0.5 m) and longer interconnect (2M) does make an audible improvement. Next trial I'm going to spin the mono amps around (180 degrees) so I can have even shorter speaker runs to main speakers.
JA Posted January 8, 2007 Posted January 8, 2007 Next trial is to set mono blocks rear to speaker rear and try shortest possible speaker cable. [/b] Hello Field, Well done for posting your results. You must be devoted to want to try your rears as well, but now having 2m interconnects on your main speakers, you will probably need several metre interconnectss from your HT pre/pro to get to the rear amps. Are these also a balanced connection? To compare your rears connected in this way you probably need to play 2ch music through them since it would be harder to tell in surround- too much going on. THoughts? Best of luck. Best JA
Phil G Posted January 8, 2007 Posted January 8, 2007 Hey JA, I could be wrong but I think Field means he will spin his mono amps around (180 degrees) so he can have even shorter speaker runs to his main speakers. Well done Field, I'm sure that is a better than expected result! good stuff for trying it. One day if you are able to go fully balanced it could be even better again. Could be worth a shot!
Tony M Posted January 8, 2007 Posted January 8, 2007 Next trial is to set mono blocks rear to speaker rear and try shortest possible speaker cable. [/b] I'd be a bit wary of doing this......if you find any degree of improvement, then you have the dilemma of whether or not to leave your lovely monoblocks behind the speakers with their backs facing into the room :wink:
JA Posted January 8, 2007 Posted January 8, 2007 Hey JA, I could be wrong but I think Field means he will spin his mono amps around (180 degrees) so he can have even shorter speaker runs to his main speakers. Well done Field, I'm sure that is a better than expected result! good stuff for trying it. One day if you are able to go fully balanced it could be even better again. Could be worth a shot! [/b] Hello Luckydog, Now that I re-read his(Field's) last line: Next trial is to set mono blocks rear to speaker rear and try shortest possible speaker cable I take your point. :wub: :biggrin: :biggrin: Best JA
Roberts Posted January 8, 2007 Author Posted January 8, 2007 Hey JA, I could be wrong but I think Field means he will spin his mono amps around (180 degrees) so he can have even shorter speaker runs to his main speakers. Well done Field, I'm sure that is a better than expected result! good stuff for trying it. One day if you are able to go fully balanced it could be even better again. Could be worth a shot! [/b] Thanks,luckyDog.Yes, that is what I'm going to do.
Guest alebonau Posted January 8, 2007 Posted January 8, 2007 I'd be a bit wary of doing this......if you find any degree of improvement, then you have the dilemma of whether or not to leave your lovely monoblocks behind the speakers with their backs facing into the room :wink: [/b] great to hear you got the chance to check this out field and finding it to some benefit. could also just place the monoblocs beside the speakers. I used to have mine that way. will still look great and with pretty short speaker cables as right next to the speakers. ps field if you need to borrow some xlrs let me know have some 2.5m(standard MF issue) and 3.5m(RS electronics branded) ones from memory if you need some to try.
Roberts Posted January 8, 2007 Author Posted January 8, 2007 Hello Luckydog, Now that I re-read his(Field's) last line: Next trial is to set mono blocks rear to speaker rear and try shortest possible speaker cable I take your point. :wub: :biggrin: :biggrin: Best JA [/b] I should have made it bit more clear. I'm going to spin the mono amps around (180 degrees) so I can have even shorter speaker runs to main speakers.
Phil G Posted January 8, 2007 Posted January 8, 2007 From Al "could also just place the monoblocs beside the speakers. I used to have mine that way. will still look great and with pretty short speaker cables as right next to the speakers". I agree with Al, sit them next to each speaker, so their bums are flush and show the sexy beasts off!
JA Posted January 8, 2007 Posted January 8, 2007 .....so their bums are flush and show the sexy beasts off! [/b] Hmmmmmm Lucky!!!!! Sounds like you are describing hipsters jeans on the female:biggrin: :biggrin:
Roberts Posted January 8, 2007 Author Posted January 8, 2007 great to hear you got the chance to check this out field and finding it to some benefit. could also just place the monoblocs beside the speakers. I used to have mine that way. will still look great and with pretty short speaker cables as right next to the speakers. ps field if you need to borrow some xlrs let me know have some 2.5m(standard MF issue) and 3.5m(RS electronics branded) ones from memory if you need some to try. [/b] Thanks for the offer Al.I have already placed an order for 2 m balanced cable with Greg of HTCustom cable and is expecting delivery on thursday.
Keith_W Posted January 8, 2007 Posted January 8, 2007 Hi field, my experience is the same as yours. Old setup: preamp - 1m interconnect - power amp - 10m speaker cable - speakers New setup: preamp - 5m interconnect - power amp - 2m speaker cable - speakers My reading also indicates that it is better to have a longer interconnect run than a longer speaker cable run. This seemed counter-intuitive to me - after all, an interconnect carries a lower powered signal, so surely it would be more susceptible to interference? However my ears tell me that the new setup is better.
Guest alebonau Posted January 8, 2007 Posted January 8, 2007 From Al "could also just place the monoblocs beside the speakers. I used to have mine that way. will still look great and with pretty short speaker cables as right next to the speakers". I agree with Al, sit them next to each speaker, so their bums are flush and show the sexy beasts off! [/b] hehehe that was exactly what I was thinking hehehe
norpus Posted January 8, 2007 Posted January 8, 2007 Hmmmmmm Lucky!!!!! Sounds like you are describing hipsters jeans on the female:biggrin: [/b] or a baboon
Phil G Posted January 8, 2007 Posted January 8, 2007 Hmmmmmm Lucky!!!!! Sounds like you are describing hipsters jeans on the female:biggrin: :biggrin: [/b] hehehe, I supose I could've chosen better wording, but I got a laugh from that JA. :biggrin: Definately wasn't thinking of a baboons butt though! Bad mental image. Field, maybe you could also get the guys at your work to fabricate a pair of short amp stands for your Stello's - in order to get the amp and speaker terminals at the same height. Once I went to Audio Lifestyle in Richmond (which is now closed) and in their back room where they had their JM-Lab Grand Utopia's powered by a pair of Marantz Mono power amps, which together with the matching pre was over $50K of amplification and they had the classy looking power amps sitting on steel amp stands adjasent to each speaker. Man they looked good, sitting up there proudly. I was drooling all over the place Anyway just an idea.
Spearmint Posted January 8, 2007 Posted January 8, 2007 Hey Field great write up. Its interesting the 1.5dB difference, this could also be a result from changing interconnects from balanced to unbalanced. Looking forward to when you get your new balanced cables, and seeing if the difference is due to the shorter speaker cables or not. I’m with the others; have the amps sitting beside the speakers, especially if you can get some more of those great stands made for them.
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