Product advertising (what would be appropriate and what wouldn't)

In relation to the subject of product advertsing, my view is that it should be allowed.

Anyone should be able to point to any web site where Digital TV products are available for purchase, promotional sales, etc.

I also think that DBA should encourage (indeed even seek to obtain on behalf of its members) such things as special discount for members and perhaps provide a list of places where members would be able to get such discounts.

My initial thoughts, for other members' comments.

This Santa's view for what its worth: just another step on the slippery slope!

Rather than being the well-oiled exception to the rule, the forum will slowly sink back into the pack.

That said ... alerting people to new products from time to time, as already happens, is a different matter. Keeping people informed about the kind of products members crave is somewhat different to spraying advertorials left, right & centre!

And also ... hand in hand with advertising almost always comes a shift in what's allowed in terms of pointing out product defects, lies in advertising, etc ... not biting the hand of the advertiser...

NB: I'll add the "renura clause" ... wrt to the alerting function, mentioned above ... when the info comes from a source respected for actually doing something for the membership, and the wider dtv community, it can be accepted, or promoted ... however, this is quite unlike "normal" advertisers, who simply, mechanically import and flog product.

If advertising is allowed it should be only is a very specific forum and not allowed to inundate all the knowledge threads.

I think advertising of future and current products is a good thing... every so often I'll find a thread about the latest upcoming displays and other HT gear (sometimes, I'll even pin up some info on the latest graphics cards for HTPCs), which is a great source of info for those willing to look forward to the future.

And having it in a sub-forum would be nice too (with each corresponding product type having it's own sub-forum as well, eg. Displays, Audio Equipment, PCs, etc..)

I find the dba news bulletin pretty good for news on DTV and upcoming digital tv realted products. Maybe that can be continued.

The likes of renura on the dtvforum is invaluable -with this sort of imerging bleedign edge technology theyre really needed.

Don't like the idea of advertising on the forum though.

perhaps if ever allowed, then confined to one sub forum somewhere but can imagine it soon being over run with spammers and turning into a bit of a theives bazaar.

I do agree though its good to hear about new products and the like for awareness - no probs with that especially when coming from a source the likes of Renura where his commercial interests are clear and for all to see.

Put simply I am opposed to advertising on the forum.

It is my view (and has been for a while) that using the forum to announce, pre-announce, stir up potential interest and announce sales, special offers and other incentives etc, and the like by a commercial supplier either directly, or by ghost accounts or other nom de plumes should not be permitted. Commercial interests have their own web sites for marketing and advertising, and it is pretty simple to locate them. But a simple announcement of the release of a new product, or a new revion of software I think is appropriate

I think it is DBA members who feature in the DBA news announcements rather than smaller traders who probably wouldn't see a need to be DBA members.

But I guess it depends on what DBA's objectives are. As I understand it it's role is to foster interest and take up in digital V products, but I don't think that the forum should become the de-facto e-tail channel for commercial interests.

Some would say that this is exactly what one of DBA' main objectives should be.

Indeed, in my view (and using murrayt's own words) to announce, pre-announce, stir up potential interest and announce sales, special offers and other incentives etc to promote the uptake of Digital TV in Australia should not only be permitted, but also encouraged

Renura

Perhaps we should let DBA, comprising it's Members (noting that forum members are not Members of DBA) decide or confirm their objectives. The forum will obviously need to work within that framework.

Your view expressed above seems to suggest open slather for retailers to utilize DBA's resources. One wonders about the benefit that provides overall. Or perhaps just a free ride or a leg up for some.

I suppose one question that comes to mind is whether or not we are talking about paid advertising (banner ads, charges for click-throughs on links to commercial sites, etc)? If it is paid advertising, will this be limited to DBA members, or open to all commercial parties?

Another question is: what is this forum here for? Is it here mainly to benefit DBA members and other manufacturers/wholesalers/retailers or is it here mainly to benefit the consumers who want to learn about and share their digital TV/digital media experiences?

While there are overlaps between the two extremes, I feel that if the current rules on gratuitous advertising (ie: advertising in post contents) are relaxed, then this will have a serious impact on the attractiveness of the forums to consumers, and then eventually to the retailers and DBA as well.

Our approach to this and other forums has always been a simple one of "promotion through support" - we promote our business through the support we provide to our customers who frequent the DBA forum, and through our involvement in general in this and other online communities. We like to think this is in the spirit of what the forum has been trying to achieve, and while it benefits us, it also benefits the other members as well. Unfortunately, not everyone appears to see things the way we do. We've always had only one account, and have never felt the need to create aliases (or use other means) to post promotional links and other information about our products - we have a website, we rank well in search engines, do other forms of advertising, have links from manufacturer's sites, and if people want to see what we are currently selling and the current prices, offers, and other information, they can, and do, come to our site to obtain that information, or contact us through the usual means (phone, email, carrier pigeon,...).

IMHO, when it comes to the rules on post contents (as opposed to the other question of paid advertising through banner ads etc), the balance that has been struck so far (while sometimes the rules are bent (or broken) by some parties), finds a suitable balance between the desires of the retailers to promote themselves and their products and services, and the needs of the consumers who want as unbiased a playing field as possible when it comes to enquiring, learning, and sharing information about products, services, etc. I think a relatively fair and reasonable middle ground has been found, and it is one that will continue to serve everyone well into the future.

dont like the idea of banner adds. or paid advertisements etc.

I don't think this forum is here for retailers or whatever to promote themselves or their products.

I agree with parts of what HyperReality is saying in relation to what sorts of advertising we are discussing here. I also agree with alebonau about banners and paid advertising, etc.

Perhaps we should clarify what we are talking about, in the context of this thread/topic.

What I understand we are discussing is product advertising, no advertising someone’ business, etc.

I would not advocate DBA or more specifically the forums to become Australia’s DTV Trading Post, paid or unpaid

However, the way I see it is that the DBA forums should be a place where anyone could come and look for the latest news about Digital TV products available in Australia, what these products are, read about users experience with them where to get them, prices and so forth.

Similarly, as a potential DTV buyer, I would also like to know what other new products are being developed, are coming, etc.

I guess whether post such as “XYZ is having a sale on abc PVR” should be allowed or not is perhaps a controversial issue but again my view I that this is basically good information that benefits the consumer most of all and, in my view, is not inconsistent with the objective of promoting the uptake of DTV in Australia.

In relation to offering DBA forum members discounts on DTV products, similarly I can’t see why it should not be posted.

What I understand we are discussing is product advertising, no advertising someone’ business, etc.

Yes, but if TEAC is talking about TEAC badged products, or you are talking about your DigitalNow badged products, etc, isnt that the same as promoting a business? If we "actively" promoted DigiTV products would that be promoting the product or promoting our business? Where do you draw the line between manufacturers, wholesalers, resellers of OEM products, and straight out retailers and what they are allowed to do?

I would not advocate DBA or more specifically the forums to become Australia’s DTV Trading Post, paid or unpaid

On that we agree.

However, the way I see it is that the DBA forums should be a place where anyone could come and look for the latest news about Digital TV products available in Australia, what these products are, read about users experience with them where to get them, prices and so forth.

Yes, true, but if people want prices they can easily obtain them by looking at the retailers website, visiting a store, or picking up the phone can't they? The discussion of "best prices" via the PM system appears to work well now, and lots of people appear to respect that approach.

Similarly, as a potential DTV buyer, I would also like to know what other new products are being developed, are coming, etc.

Yes, true, but sometimes there is a fine (and not always so clear line) between "discussion" and "promotion", and not always a clear idea of who is typing the posts for a particular username. It's a difficult issue, but once again, I think the current status-quo is as good as it's going to get.

I guess whether post such as “XYZ is having a sale on abc PVR” should be allowed or not is perhaps a controversial issue but again my view I that this is basically good information that benefits the consumer most of all and, in my view, is not inconsistent with the objective of promoting the uptake of DTV in Australia.

This already happens now anyway. Whether or not it fits in with the current forum rules appears to be open to conjecture - it appears to depend on who makes the post. Maybe clearing up that aspect of the rules is something that can be addressed.

In relation to offering DBA forum members discounts on DTV products, similarly I can’t see why it should not be posted.

If retailers want to offer those sorts of discounts, they can advertise them on their websites or at their shopfronts can't they?

I suppose I'm wary of the door being opened further than it already is, in case this becomes the thin edge of the wedge and things go down hill from there. That would be bad for everyone.

Yes, but if TEAC is talking about TEAC badged products, or you are talking about your DigitalNow badged products, etc, isnt that the same as promoting a business? If we "actively" promoted DigiTV products would that be promoting the product or promoting our business? Where do you draw the line between manufacturers, wholesalers, resellers of OEM products, and straight out retailers and what they are allowed to do?

Are you suggesting that we should now stop mentioning Teac or Topfield or whatever?

The difference is that if I mention Teac XYZ I am mentioning a product that maybe sold by any business and not necessarily by HypeReality or DigitalNow, as an example.

I guess whether post such as “XYZ is having a sale on abc PVR” should be allowed or not is perhaps a controversial issue but again my view I that this is basically good information that benefits the consumer most of all and, in my view, is not inconsistent with the objective of promoting the uptake of DTV in Australia.

This already happens now anyway. Whether or not it fits in with the current forum rules appears to be open to conjecture - it appears to depend on who makes the post. Maybe clearing up that aspect of the rules is something that can be addressed.

Yes, let's clarify it, so people like DavoNogo, whom BTW has nothig whatever to do with DN, got his post deleted when he posted that DN was having Xmas sale, will know what the rules are.

In relation to offering DBA forum members discounts on DTV products, similarly I can’t see why it should not be posted.

If retailers want to offer those sorts of discounts, they can advertise them on their websites or at their shopfronts can't they?

Sure, of course - we do that already, but what's the harm in DBA publicising such information, if anythig it is of benefit to forum members and might even attract new ones

the pending release of new products from any registered dba member is pretty well trumpeted by the dba website already. So not sure thats needed on the forum in any way.

Re retaillers havign sales. Why should that be required to be promoted on the forum. They pay for their own advertising don't they.

I knwo I and probably fair old number of other forum members don't come to the forum to find out where tha sales are at and who's selling what at what price. Not sure if this is a step in the right direction for hte forum as it is now.

Renura & hyper you guys already have links to yoru websites in your sigs. Nothign stopping people clicking the link to take them to your website where you can advertise to your hearts content. Also for your existing customer base there nothing stopping you sending out email notifications (if agreed by the receiver) letting them knwo of special prices or promotions or whatever.

Hyper I too am wary of the "door being opened any further than what it is". I too see it as the "thin end of the wedge".

the pending release of new products from any registered dba member is pretty well trumpeted by the dba website already. So not sure thats needed on the forum in any way.

It maybe the case for consumer electronics appliances, but it is certainly not for PC Tuner devices?

Are you saying that those long threads about a certain dual tuner HDTV PVR STB coming soon, is not something that people should discuss in the forums?

It maybe the case for consumer electronics appliances, but it is certainly not for PC Tuner devices?

Are you saying that those long threads about a certain dual tuner HDTV PVR STB coming soon, is not something that people should discuss in the forums?

why shouldn't it include pc tuner devices - your a registered dba member aren't you.

bit of a difference between users of dtv products speculating about somethign upcoming and a retailer or distributor creating a bit of hoo ha about somethign before its released.

bit of a difference between users of dtv products speculating about somethign upcoming and a retailer or distributor creating a bit of hoo ha about somethign before its released.

I'd rather have the distributors giving details about a product to be released and answer questions about it, if necessary, than speculating about it

I'd rather have the distributors giving details about a product to be released and answer questions about it, if necessary, than speculating about it

nothing stopping you doing that on the dba website as its done here for many other products before theyre released

http://www.dba.org.au/newsletter/IB-FebMar...ll.asp#PRODUCT3

nothing stopping you doing that on the dba website as its done here for many other products before theyre released

http://www.dba.org.au/newsletter/IB-FebMar...ll.asp#PRODUCT3

Where would anyone ask questions and get answers about it?

Where would anyone ask questions and get answers about it?

in the forum jsut like with everything else

in the forum jsut like with everything else

Are you suggesting that we should now stop mentioning Teac or Topfield or whatever?

The difference is that if I mention Teac XYZ I am mentioning a product that maybe sold by any business and not necessarily by HypeReality or DigitalNow, as an example.

No, I'm not suggesting that this is stopped (see below: I don't think it can be). I also don't think it is fair/possible to say that manufacturers/importers/rebadgers can start discussions about their products, but retailers who may sell a range of products can't - particularly when quite a few of the latter category are DBA members (even though most of these would never consider the forum as a marketing tool - the big fish wouldn't think about it).

the pending release of new products from any registered dba member is pretty well trumpeted by the dba website already. So not sure thats needed on the forum in any way.

IMHO, discussion on the forum is going to happen regardless. Even if retailers were banned from announcing (or pre-pre-pre-announcing) products (particularly when new threads are started to do so), then it's not going to stop an alias/mate/etc from raising the discussion.

What I have problems with though is the case where the representative of a commercial interest announces a product on the forum, even before that product is even mentioned on their website.

It's all a very grey region - what one retailer sees as "using the forum to educate the masses as to what great products are out there (oh, yeah, BTW they're available from us <wink>)", a consumer may well see as "annoying blatant promotion and advertising". Once again, this gets us back to the question of who this forum is here for?

Is it okay for the forum to be used as a "support channel" but not as a "marketing channel" (and what about the fact that these two things do overlap)?

EDIT: My view is that is a business wants to use this forum primarily as a marketing channel, then they should really be setting up their own forum to do that on - like quite a few manufacturers and retailers have. Then they can announce and discuss their products, sales, prices, offers, etc to their hearts content - but on their own forum.

If they want to answer support questions, announce firmware/software upgrades to existing customers, _respond_ to genuine questions about features etc around here (as well as on their own forum of course), then I don't see a problem with that.

Re retaillers havign sales. Why should that be required to be promoted on the forum. They pay for their own advertising don't they.

I reiterate that I agree that that sort of stuff isn't necessarily required on the forum. There are other channels for announcing such things.

Renura & hyper you guys already have links to yoru websites in your sigs. Nothign stopping people clicking the link to take them to your website where you can advertise to your hearts content. Also for your existing customer base there nothing stopping you sending out email notifications (if agreed by the receiver) letting them knwo of special prices or promotions or whatever.

Yes, I agree with that too. I've not made any bones about the fact that my sig serves two purposes: one is to let people, particularly newbies, know that my comments may have a commercial bias (even if they don't then people assume they do), and the second is promotion, in return, if you like, for all the contributions we make around here. I would guess the same goes for renura. That said, it was decided ages ago through an open discussion in DTV cards forum, that the advantage to members that comes from acknowledgment of potential bias outweighs any issues with marketing that come from having the link in every post. I believe that is still the case today.

I think I've said my piece on this topic for now, as all and sundry know while Nunzio/renura and I agree on some things, we don't necessarily see eye-to-eye on other things, and history has shown that we'll probably just end up going around in circles now that we have both made our respective points (though of course, we are both the type of person who likes to get the last word in if possible! <grin>).

I am now particularly interested in getting some feedback from Tim/DBA and Coral on some of the things that have been discussed above, to see if there are any particular points that the DBA wants additional thought on from us.

~

Is it okay for the forum to be used as a "support channel" but not as a "marketing channel" (and what about the fact that these two things do overlap)?

~

Interesting discussion guys

certainly think where I'm coming from is forum to me I see as a support channel. To support the uptake of dtv. Help people get to the grips of the technology or support more people getting involved in the technology.

Does marketing support the uptake ? well I guess thats whats being suggested.

I guess I've got a real problem with people coming onto the forum to make it a marketing channel or it being turned into a marketing channel.

I think guys liek your self renura and hyper do a great job on the forum and if you do any marketing its pretty subtle and certainly help out in a big way providing support to people new to the technology and coming to the grips with it.

I would rue the day the forum was turned into a marketing channel. I think its much better as it is currently done in the controlled fashion via the dba website to higlight and promote any upcoming technology and new products. With the forum not allowing product advertising and more for the users of dtv products to discuss these new and existing products and any related issues.

as you say hyper maybe coral and tim can clarify here the role of the dba forum.

There is always the cross issue.

Whilst people like Renura and HyperReality are important to DTV takeup, there is obviously a conflict of interest there when they post new info on their products ("Firmware Upgrade") or assistance otherwise. People portal into their sites, and I am sure that solely by the participation in these forums, the pair of them have received commercial advantages from their participation.

Thus, therein presents the problem. Commercial advantages - purely by participation - but advantages nonetheless. DBA pays money to host the forums, for a commercial gain for some members.

i.e. some new member wants to know which DTV card to buy. He searches around, finds these forums, asks some questions. Renura (for example!!!) replies and is helpful. The user then sees the DN URL link, goes there - sees Renura has the product nice and cheap, so buys from there.

Rinse and repeat for any of the other retailers lurking on the forums.

Should retailers be charged a nominal fee for this? Basically, it's free advertising.