In response to recent discussions about commercial advertising, the following clause has been inserted into the Forum Guidelines:

Particularly, pricing relevant to a particular supplier is unacceptable. DBA will moderate any post referring to pricing and/or weekly specials in breach of this guideline. Self-promotion and other techniques for your financial gain is unacceptable.

This change is under instruction from DBA following recent discussions.

Retailers:

Please do not post or reply to any thread that directly contributes to your commercial gain - be that in posting a price alert, price correction, or stock levels (i.e: We have that item at X Store for Y Price!!!).

End-Customers:

Please do not request or post a supplier-directed price (i.e. This product now $X at Y store! Free camera too!). Refrain from 'I paid $X price last Wednesday at Y store!'.

From this point on, suspensions will be issued for those retailers who continue to breach these guidelines.

Naturally, we welcome any feedback from forum members on these (and existing) guidelines.

Retailers:

Please do not post or reply to any thread that directly contributes to your commercial gain - be that in posting a price alert, price correction, or stock levels (i.e: We have that item at X Store for Y Price!!!).

End-Customers:

Please do not request or post a supplier-directed price (i.e. This product now $X at Y store! Free camera too!). Refrain from 'I paid $X price last Wednesday at Y store!'.

From this point on, suspensions will be issued for those retailers who continue to breach these guidelines.

Naturally, we welcome any feedback from forum members on these (and existing) guidelines.

The retailers part is acceptable, but I think the

Refrain from 'I paid $X price last Wednesday at Y store!'.

part needs to go.

Ie. the Users helping Users phrase should be used.

There are people wanting to find out where they can get a STB for the cheapest.

It also is useful knowing what the prices are at different places.

I agree with that as people want to buy the cheapest around for a box, but also agree that is helps one retailer and may cause smaller ones miss out if not giving discounts on the same box - BUT isn't that competition anyway and they may bring it down to compete?

I suppose one could say "It is cheaper at Y place" but not say the price. If they want to know the price then they can send a personal message outside the forum to ask what the price is...

Yes? No?

Hmmm

I suppose one could say "It is cheaper at Y place" but not say the price.  If they want to know the price then they can send a personal message outside the forum to ask what the price is...

Yes?  No?

Hmmm

Good point.

The same should be done if you want prices from people like Renura and HyperReality.

Coral. Add in the forum rules: "If you want to find out a price from a user or retailer, please use the PM facility."

Edited February 18, 200422 yr by kenneth

Whilst I understand the reasons behind 'users helping users', there is no system in place to stop a mate assisting a mate who is a supplier. For this reason, the relevant line in the guidelines was introduced.

"Coral. Add in the forum rules: 'If you want to find out a price from a user or retailer, please use the PM facility.'"

This will be discussed.

I'm sorry, but I think this type of censorship is wrong and going to devalue the usefulness of these forums.

I very much value the pricing information that has been posted in these pages. It helped me pick up my new Sony TV at a price I was prepared to pay. Postings in the forums gave me a feeling for the deals that could be made and hinted at the stores that were prepared to be competitive. This is a valuable service to offer to members.

Please reconsider this policy. By restricting the free flow of product, supplier and pricing details you are effectively inhibiting the natural competitive market information that pressures vendors and manufactures to bring down prices. This forum should continue to serve the many and varied interests of its members. Information on products including pricing and vendor availability is part of the service. Members who do not want this information are free to move on to the next topic.

Regards,

Ian.

so saying that "Bloggies DVB30000 is at Joey Bloggs hardware for $1000" is that not permitted

From the criticism of pricing (DBA), I suggest that some of the member retailers are not happy with the way Forum Members communicate prices and consequently bata for and get better deals.

After all, WE are the consumer, the end user, its our money being spent!!!

As I m retired, I have the time to research, lobby, negotiate with and obtain better deals for DBA Forum users, I personally get nothing out of the products and services I suggest.

Edited February 19, 200422 yr by gclark8

Case scenario.

A member has a friend who runs a retail outlet. The manager of that retail outlet gets this 'friend' to post about how 'great' of a deal he received on the weekend. Everyone who reads it gets swayed because of the great deal...

...which affects their competitors. Whilst I value the reasons behind 'competition', in a public area such as a forum - with the visitor flow it receives - the retailer originally posting gets a bit of a free kick along.

So these competitors get whim of this, and start making their own cross-threads. Before we know it, forums are filled with 'great' offers created by 'well-connected' members - advertising in a nutshell.

I guess we either allow that behaviour, or we don't. Given the perchant for members to not like seeing advertising at all, it's a bit of a pickle.

Thoughts welcomed; I'm finding this very constructive.

As a member who has participated in at last one of the debates in this area,

and has been described as being strident et al, I welcome Coral's position (representing DBA) on this.

It is a tricky area and openness and honesty (occasionally misplaced in business) is to be encouraged

A member has a friend who runs a retail outlet. The manager of that retail outlet gets this 'friend' to post about how 'great' of a deal he received on the weekend. Everyone who reads it gets swayed because of the great deal...

As someone who, understandably, can be perceived to be biased and have particular interest in this debate, I would like to make the following points in relation to the above.

Let’s say that what you are saying above actually occurs, let’s further say that someone is swayed by the so called great deal…advertising.

What would that person do if it eventually found that out that it wasn’t great a deal, after all? Rationally one would think that he/she would post back and say, “hi guys that was a rip off, don’t buy from that establishment”

Result: Most members would be better off

Now let’s take the case where the person swayed by the great deal, indeed found that it was a great deal. I guess he would report back on how good a deal that was an encourage others to do the same

Result: All members would be better off

So I am afraid I don’t really see your logic at all.

The suggestions that all these dealings get done in the back rooms of the forum, I think, is ridiculous. I for one would not like to be approached by people by PM trying to sell wares. If anything that should be banned.

Cheers

Renura

I have no problem with commercial interests only being able to post links or announce the availability of products, update their technical status, anticipated release dates, in country availability, RRP etc. To many people this will be considered advertising but I would argue that it is information relevant to the community and should be allowed.

I feel that manufacturers, appointed australian distributors etc should be given more latitude than "stores" in this regard.

It's a tricky area to police though and in general I will always favor less censorship rather than more

Just as in real life it's ultimately up to the reader to assess the veracity of any information presented.

All very good points so far. I'll leave this thread going for a few more days to try and gauge a nice nucleus of feedback before persuing a final decision.

As a representative of a business that frequents these forums, I personally am a bit sick of the number of posts that would appear to come under the "mates helping retailer mates" banner.

Hard to prove, I know, but when you examine the posts made by particular members of the forum a theme certainly arises - and this is not a theme that would necessarily be immediately apparent to casual guest readers.

If these sorts of spam posts are let go, regardless of whether or not they refer to something that really is a good deal or not, then as Coral has said, I think that you are very soon going to see a spam "arms race" between the retailers, friend of retailers, et al- and that is not good for anyone.

As I have stated previously, I much prefer an approach similar to the one taken on Whirlpool, where there is a sticky thread containing a list of relevant retailers and a request that spamming be kept to a minimum (or banned completely).

Let the guests or members do their research based upon visits to the web sites of retailers on that list - they dont need to be bombarded with prices, policies, and other stuff, they can go to the retailers web sites and see all that info for themselves.

To help people out, you could let each retailer have a bit of a blurb that describes what they are all about, that is put against their name in the list.

You will still get positive and negative feedback on the retailers as a part of posts about other things - there are lots of examples of "I'm having this problem with my XXXX (I got it from YYYY and they were great), can anyone help me with this problem?" type posts - and I dont see why this shouldn't be allowed/encouraged, but by having a list of retailers, the answer to a post of the type "where's the cheapest place to buy ZZZ" should be "Go visit the sites in the retailer list to get their latest prices".

By doing this, you (mostly) diffuse the whole spamming issue and the forum becomes a better place IMHO.

If you have such a list, then there is no need for posts that just contain "I got mine from..." - if people want to know where to get something from in a location near them (or australia wide via an online store), they can visit the websites for retailers on the list.

There is also nothing stopping someone from PM'ing another member to ask them where they got their purchase from and whether they were happy with the service.

If you still want to allow "got a bargain from ..." type posts, then how about an experiment: make an "I Bagged a Bargain" subforum for them - but with a sticky disclaimer reminding the casual reader/newbie that they need to be careful in believing everything they read??

I think it is not unreasonable, as joeybloggs as said, that announcements on new products be made by manufacturers or even retailers - but lets have a subforum specifically for that sort of thing like on http://www.tv-cards.com/messageboard/

- besides a retailer or manufacturer can just get a mate to say "hey, have you seen this great gizmo from here...", so why not make it all above board and let the manufacturers/importers do it in the appropriate place - at least the info is more likely to be more accurate in this case?

At the end of the day, we feel that the best form of advertising is the advertising that we get from helping people out through support that we provide on the forum, not through us or others bombarding people with how good our prices are, which products we are selling, what our policies are, etc on a regular basis - we have a website that tells people all that information.

If the DBA are comfortable with it, we're quite happy to add an advertising blurb/explicit website link/disclaimer as a signature, like renura has recently done - yes, I see this as a form of advertising, but weighed up against the possibility of people thinking you are "unbiased", then maybe it should be something to be encouraged. I haven't done it yet because I'm waiting to see what feeback the DBA/Coral provide to renura and others on this issue.

So, given that it's early in the morning (the joys of having a new baby!), I'll summarise my ramblings:

1. Consider having sticky threads somewhere that contain a list of retailers who have member representatives on the forum (with their usernames), with a link to the retailer's site, and possibly a general blurb about what they sell/do. This list could be regularly reviewed to ensure it contains retailers who frequent the forum and who's representative(s) help out other users (provides encouragement for retailers to be proactively involved with helping people).

2. Consider having a "new hardware/software announcements" subforums where people can announce new products. Allow RRP to be mentioned/discussed, but monitored the subforum carefully to ensure that it just doesnt turn into an advertisment-fest - but if it does, at least it will be limited to one subforum only. Consider making this a product announcement only area, rather than a "buy it from here" forum - people can Google if they want to find a place where the gadget is sold, or maybe even have a look at the retailer sticky list.

(There will always be cases where the person making the announcement is the rep of the only place to buy something, but that is happening less and less nowadays).

3. Consider requesting that retailer representatives (as defined in the sticky list of retailers) have a suitable signature that identifies their association. You'll need to ignore the issue that it is advertising, as on balance it makes members better off to know the association of the poster. One downside is that guests dont see the signatures so Coral may need to consider enabling signatures for guest readers.

4. Consider a "I bagged a bargain" subforum, where people can go if they want to share the info on their bargain buys, and where people who feel the need to spam can vent their desire. Ensure that a bold disclaimer is visible for newbies regarding doing their own research to back up any claims that are posted.

-----

At the end of the day, I dont think that it is possible to stop spam completely, but I think it can be minimised or redirected in such a way that all members end up better off at the end of the day.

I feel a balance can be found, I'm just not 100% sure how.

Anyway, this is my 2c worth at an early hour, so please keep the flaming to a minimum.

Coral,

Must say I agree with George and others. It is always nice to know what price a piece of equipment could be purchased for and then use that price as a basis for your own negotiations.

There will be people that abuse this but surely they need to be dealt with on a case by case basis - not with a blanket policy that is essentially censorship. The most useful part of the forums is users helping each other. This policy really devalues the worth of these forums.

Let's just weed out the people abusing it and identify the "retailer friend" and deal with that. Don't punish everyone else who wants to help fellow forum users get a bargain.

I have in the past dealt with such a poster by approaching you and it was appropriately dealt with. And that particular thread was pretty productive in the end.

Just my 2c

Understood...the 'Good Deals' forum concept probably has some merit behind it.

Coral,

Is there really a serious problem here? I think that this a bit of over reaction to a few attempts to get publicity.

A few of these more blatant attempts have already been "exposed" by some of the very alert members of these forums.

I can understand that some of the commercial members don't want to encourage discussion about prices publicly - but in my view, this is an attempt at trade restriction.

We have recently been warned by the new chairman of the ICCC about a number of "cartels" operating in Australia that are under investigation.

Surely we want to encourage the free flow of information to promote the growth of Digital Television and there will surely be a number of casualties along the way. This free-flow must include prices.

What I'm worried about Coral is what comes next? Are you going to get pressured to ban any comments about a retailer's service level? Or the quality of a distributors after-sales service? Or maybe we wont be able to make any negative comments about products?

This is the thin end of the wedge.

Let's not let a few abuses of this forum destroy it's dynamic and interactive essence.

As a representative of a business that frequents these forums, I personally am a bit sick of the number of posts that would appear to come under the "mates helping retailer mates" banner.

Hard to prove, I know, but when you examine the posts made by particular members of the forum a theme certainly arises - and this is not a theme that would necessarily be immediately apparent to casual guest readers.

Maybe you should tell your mates to stop it then

Or maybe you can not, because of their true appreciation for your service?

The thing that I would appreciate most about forums is information, about the product, in particular prices where I can save some money from.

It is easy to get technical details specs about a product because the the same product has got the same specs (or it should) everywhere, but not the same price.

I say if this forum does not allow statements like "Hardly Normal got Xp for $23 - what a bargain", then it will eventually be doomed.

Take example from the www.avsforum.com, one of the biggest forums of this type in the world. People are allowed to quote prices and links to places, what's wrong with that?

I think it is more "improper", if not dishonest for a mate of a mate to fake a problem with a particular product, then the other mate comes along minutes later to give a solution which makes this glorious mate look good! What a lot of crap!

If the price is public everyone can check it if true or not, a problem or some other forged event may not.

FYI I am a customer, long term supporter and hope friend of Renura.

Long Live HDTV!

Maybe you should tell your mates to stop it then

Or maybe you can not, because of their true appreciation for your service?

14all, all the forum regulars would know where you stand.

Actually, there have been cases where we have PM'ed people and asked them to edit their posts about us to stay within the forum rules, lest it just encourage others to step up their "marketing campaigns". We'd rather have a smaller business than be known as a spammer business.

I say if this forum does not allow statements like "Hardly Normal got Xp for $23 - what a bargain", then it will eventually be doomed.

Okay, so why does this have to be in the main forum areas? Why not in a separate subforum specifically for bargain hunters?

We could have a second hand buy/sell subforum too!

I think it is more "improper", if not dishonest for a mate of a mate to fake a problem with a particular product, then the other mate comes along minutes later to give a solution which makes this glorious mate look good! What a lot of crap!

Fair point - but say this is really happening (can you please point out some examples where you are sure this is the case?), then at least the forum will be littered with solutions to problems rather than hundreds of "buy from XXXX, they're really nice..." posts. Surely the former is better for everyone?.

If the price is public everyone can check it if true or not, a problem or some other forged event may not.

Yes, the price is public - on the company's website, or a phone call away - so why should it have to be repeated here all the time?

As I've suggested above - have a list of retailers and people can visit their sites if they want prices and details, rather than having them plastered everywhere over here all the time - or stick it in a subforum specifically for this sort of info.

I dont see how this restricts trade, or (dis)advantages anyone? It also wont limit discussion on who is good or bad, I think it will just tone down some of the advertising to a lower level.

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So what about the idea of a hardware/software announcement subforum?

the forum will be littered with solutions to problems rather than hundreds of "buy from XXXX, they're really nice..." posts. Surely the former is better for everyone?.

Has this actually happened? I think not.

Lets not let a few isolated instances of inappropriate commercial practice ruin this forum for everyone else.

It's a free market place and this forum is open to both buyers and sellers.

We should be encouraging the free exchange of information at all levels - including pricing information - not trying to restrict it.

Please don't throw out the baby with the bathwater.

Has this actually happened? I think not.

Lets not let a few isolated instances of inappropriate commercial practice ruin this forum for everyone else.

We must have been reading different subforums.

I understand your point, but no-one has answered the question of why all this pricing and other commercial information is so important to be posted all over the place in the forum - why isn't it sufficient for people to go to the website of the businesses who are active on the forums (they can read the signatures of the business representatives cant they?), or recommended by people as part of other exchanges of information, to get the latest price or having a subforum specifically for this sort of info?

No-one has yet come up with a suggestion on how, if pricing and other commercial info is freely allowed, how the spamming that inevitibly follows (whether directly from the retailer or indirectly) will be constrained.

I dont think there is a complete answer to this problem - but given that a lot of the people posting here dont think there is a problem, then I'm guessing that the current situation is going to remain.

The suggestion that retailer web sites will reveal real prices is absurd.

If the retailer has a web site, they are hardly likely to advertise their best negotiated price.

It has been useful for me to see posts comparing the pricing of the same product at the same (franchised) retailer from town to town and state to state.

Honestly, the prices I see on retailer price tickets and on the forum can vary by 25% or more, and the forum provides price points for bartering.

So surely discussion on pricing here is promoting competition, bringing down prices and making the whole new technology more affordable and therefore increasing uptake.

And if a retailer is using this as a back door to advertise their best price then they are revealing that to their competitors which may not be desirable anyway.

Long live the price wars.

What I'm worried about Coral is what comes next? Are you going to get pressured to ban any comments about a retailer's service level? Or the quality of a distributors after-sales service? Or maybe we wont be able to make any negative comments about products?

I sincerely doubt that'll happen. The only concern here (based on the number of reports received relative to reports in total) is supplier pricing. You'll note the majority of guidelines relate to advertising, and not product quality or company censorship.

Considered a separate forum for products/pricing?

That way those who want to see it can, those who don't want to see it don't have to.

Otherwise the potential is for flooding of advertising.

Col