The Historical Atlantis

[MusicOne]

The story of Atlantis has to be one of the most contentious narratives to come down to us from Antiquity.

 

Below, is a translation (extract) of the tale, related by Plato in his Socratic Dialogues.....Timaeus and Critias. The story came originally from Solon, an Athenian philosopher, poet and politician, who visited Egypt and spoke at length with members of the priesthood of the city of Sais (situated in the delta of the Nile). 

 

It begins with an Egyptian priest speaking to Solon about the history of Athens, many centuries before Solon’s time.

 

The words shown in red are my interpolations.

 

Many great and wonderful deeds are recorded of your state Athens in our histories. But one of them exceeds all the rest in greatness and valour. For these histories tell of a mighty power which, unprovoked, made an expedition against the whole of Europe and Asia, and to which your city put an end. This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits which are by you called the Pillars of Heracles The Straits of Gibraltar ; the island was larger than Libya all of the North African Littoral, excluding Egypt  and Asia the Near East put together, and was the way to other islands, and from these you might pass to the whole of the opposite continent America which surrounded the true ocean; for this sea the Mediterranean  which is within the Straits of Heracles is only a harbour, having a narrow entrance, but that other is a real sea, and the surrounding land may be most truly called a boundless continent. Now in this island of Atlantis there was a great and wonderful empire which had rule over the whole island and several others, and over parts of the continent and, furthermore, the men of Atlantis had subjected the parts of Libya North Africa within the columns of Heracles as far as Egypt, and of Europe as far as Tyrrhenia Italy. This vast power, gathered into one, endeavoured to subdue at a blow our country Egypt and yours Athens and the whole of the region within the straits; and then, Solon, your country shone forth, in the excellence of her virtue and strength, among all mankind. She was pre-eminent in courage and military skill, and was the leader of the Hellenes. And when the rest fell off from her, being compelled to stand alone, after having undergone the very extremity of danger, she defeated and triumphed over the invaders the Atlanteans, and preserved from slavery those who were not yet subjugated, and generously liberated all the rest of us who dwell within the pillars all lands bordering the Mediterranean. But afterwards there occurred violent earthquakes and floods; and in a single day and night of misfortune all your warlike men in a body sank into the earth, and the island of Atlantis in like manner disappeared in the depths of the sea. For which reason the sea in those parts is impassable and impenetrable, because there is a shoal of mud in the way; and this was caused by the subsidence of the island.

 

The reference to America (my interpolation) is particularly interesting. The description of the large continent on the opposite side of the Atlantic can only be America. Remembering, this was written many centuries BCE

 

 

[Full Range]

Both Interesting and Fascinating topic

With your reference to America

I would like to also point out that Pyramids are found there and many other places in the world

So it stands to reason that the ideas and technology was taught, taken or re established to other parts of the earth

[Super Mustud]

It is a little known secret, however one that I shal share with you, that pyramids were originally designed as worhipping places for early pod coffee machines. The collected might of thousands of years of worship resulted in the ultimate product of perfection.

 

Nespresso.

[Soundscape]

It is a little known secret, however one that I shal share with you, that pyramids were originally designed as worhipping places for early pod coffee machines. The collected might of thousands of years of worship resulted in the ultimate product of perfection.

 

Nespresso.

 

I always thought the pyramids were designed for brewing beer all year round, deep in the coolness of the vaults. Did you know that the Pharoahs drank beer and the commoners drank wine?

[Super Mustud]

I always thought the pyramids were designed for brewing beer all year round, deep in the coolness of the vaults. Did you know that the Pharoahs drank beer and the commoners drank wine?

I have drunk Egyptian wine. I understand the decision.

(apologies to anyone offended)

[Soundscape]

(apologies to anyone offended)

 

Perhaps you should add that to your signature?

 

[Darren69]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantis

So, I believe Atlantis itself is regarded as fictional but where the inspiration for the story comes from, is the question. Interesting.

Maybe I should call my credit card Atlantis. It often sinks to unfathomable depths following great and unpredictable consumer-owner upheavals.

Edited June 26, 2015 by Darren69

[MusicOne]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantis

So, I believe Atlantis itself is regarded as fictional but where the inspiration for the story comes from, is the question. Interesting.

Maybe I should call my credit card Atlantis. It often sinks to unfathomable depths following great and unpredictable consumer-owner upheavals.

 

@@Darren69 I know the feeling about credit cards all too well.

 

The story of Atlantis (as is shown in the translation above) clearly originates in Egypt. The Ancient Egyptian civilization was exceedingly old and far surpassed Greece in its antiquity. The Atlantis story is nowhere found in the translations of Egyptian hieroglyphs made by Egyptologists, so we can only presume that the texts have been lost, presuming that they were written down, at all.

[Super Mustud]

Perhaps you should add that to your signature?

 

 

But it would be a lie. I am like Tanya. I never lie.

[MusicOne]

Both Interesting and Fascinating topic

With your reference to America

I would like to also point out that Pyramids are found there and many other places in the world

So it stands to reason that the ideas and technology was taught, taken or re established to other parts of the earth

 

Yes, @@Full Range, some good points there about pyramids. That is a whole new subject, but it wouldn't really be out of place to talk about them here. 

 

Pyramids have been found in many countries and continents....Egypt, Mesoamerica, China and elsewhere. 

 

The Great Pyramid of Giza....know as the Pyramid of (Pharaoh) Khufu, is a marvel of engineering and could not possibly have been built in Khufu's reign, with the resources of material and manpower available at that remote period (i.e. circa 2600 BCE) 

 

When it was built and who built it, remains one of the great unsolved mysteries of the ancient world.

[emesbee]

I saw a program about the Great Pyramid the other day. The question arose as to what they did with all the waste chippings that were left over from dressing the stone blocks, so they asked a builder for his opinion. He reckoned that the finished stone blocks would only form the outer wall of the pyramid, and the chippings would have been tipped inside as fill. Actually sounds like it might be plausible to me. I wonder if anyone thought of that before?

[emesbee]

But it would be a lie. I am like Tanya. I never lie.

 

And that, of course, is a lie. Nobody never lies.

[ThirdDrawerDown]

I used to walk away from flaky thinking rather than engage, but there's so much woo-woo in the world that nowadays I do call people on their flakiness.

There are several credible explanations as to how the pyramids could be (and were) built with muscle power. Please disprove that they were built using the technology that we know the Egyptians were limited to at the time.

[lencolad]

The Atlantis thing is indeed interesting but without further ancient records it is unknowable. The Mid-Atlantic ridge topography would suggest there wasn't an island there.

The Egyptian and American pyramids are monuments to egoism and mass delusion imho.

What made people wake up one morning and think 'hmmm .., that guy over there is so important we'd better work our butts off in the sun for years to keep him happy' ?

[Darren69]

What made people wake up one morning and think 'hmmm .., that guy over there is so important we'd better work our butts off in the sun for years to keep him happy' ?

I would imagine spears pointed at your family and your clackers on a makeshift chopping block.

[lencolad]

Yes but what made the spear chuckers worship that dude ?

[emesbee]

Yes but what made the spear chuckers worship that dude ?

 

The same things that make them do it today.

 

[ThirdDrawerDown]

 

but what made the spear chuckers worship that dude

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_August_Wittfogel#The_Asiatic_Mode_of_Production

 

There's some ideology in there but leaving that to one side, the thesis is that (in the Nile Valley) -

 

the ability of the population to eat well and avoid famine was poor before irrigation, because the peopel near the river's edge grabbed all the water.  A centralised command-and-control approach to civic order and administration (ie enlightened despotism) resulted in water barons being nobbled and the water travelling to the farms on the edges of the valley, and the riversides getting their portion later.

 

Then, as power consolidated, some major public works could be put in place - the very long irrigation canals that parallel the course of the Nile but start upstream so even more land could be irrigated, and the extension of irrigation into the below-sea-level depression of El-Faiyum so it too could be farmed.

 

As population grew, because we breed, then the whole system became locked in and self-perpetuating, because if the water allocation fell apart then many times more people would starve.  The vested interests in keeping that strong centralised authority continued, entrenched. 

 

Helpful too to have a set of memes (a religion) that perpetuated the despotism.

 

Then, what to do with people's energy during the times when they aren't working in the fields?  It's all hands to the fields during the planting and harvesting but not between times, the kids can do the weeding. You don't want the people hanging around doing nothing and inventing revolutions.  (This is Fiji and Iraq's problem: what do we do with the unemployed young men?).  They get put to work on more big infrastructure projects - clearing the canals, building new ones, building white elephants such as pyramids with the promise that they will go to heaven when they do so (see comments on state religion, above).  There's plenty of time.

 

The ability to command tens of thousands of people and work-years of effort only served to reinforce just how different the people at the top were, when compared to the people at the bottom.  Never discount the human capacity and gullibility for awe and mystique.  More entrenchment.

 

edit: spieling

Edited June 26, 2015 by ThirdDrawerDown

[Super Mustud]

And that, of course, is a lie. Nobody never lies.

Like Tamya, I never lie. Trust me. Prof, you listening?

[Super Mustud]

The Atlantis thing is indeed interesting but without further ancient records it is unknowable. The Mid-Atlantic ridge topography would suggest there wasn't an island there.

The Egyptian and American pyramids are monuments to egoism and mass delusion imho.

What made people wake up one morning and think 'hmmm .., that guy over there is so important we'd better work our butts off in the sun for years to keep him happy' ?

Religion. Like the one about Global Warming. Sucks neurons from brains and precludes any further logical thinking. Thereafter it is believer against non believer.

[Saxon Hall]

Speaking of beer and never lying.

I have this in my collection

[ThirdDrawerDown]

Dweller Under Bridges! Welcome!

[lencolad]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_August_Wittfogel#The_Asiatic_Mode_of_Production

 

There's some ideology in there but leaving that to one side, the thesis is that (in the Nile Valley) -

 

the ability of the population to eat well and avoid famine ....

Helpful too to have a set of memes ......

 

The ability to command tens of thousands of people and work-years of effort only served to reinforce just how different the people at the top were, when compared to the people at the bottom.  Never discount the human capacity and gullibility for awe and mystique.  More entrenchment.

 

edit: spieling

Arrrrh that be right scholarly of ye sir arrrh.

[Guest Eggcup The Daft]

I saw a program about the Great Pyramid the other day. The question arose as to what they did with all the waste chippings that were left over from dressing the stone blocks, so they asked a builder for his opinion. He reckoned that the finished stone blocks would only form the outer wall of the pyramid, and the chippings would have been tipped inside as fill. Actually sounds like it might be plausible to me. I wonder if anyone thought of that before?

The smaller Egyptian pyramids that collapsed appear to have been built that way. Dressed outer stone walls filled with rubble were the standard way they built the thick city walls from that time onwards, so we know they used such methods. When pointed out, it's actually pretty obvious.

[Guest]

It is a proven fact that In ancient Atlantis the aged and wise King Dalios was troubled by the threat to the true crystal of Kronos.