muznuts Posted August 3, 2014 Posted August 3, 2014 Hi, the amp i have allows me to bi-amp the Paradigm Studio 100's i just bought, is there any reason NOT to do it? the guy in the shop said there would be very little if any benefit except maybe when playing them really loud but its 2 channels in the amp that i will never use otherwise
frankn Posted August 3, 2014 Posted August 3, 2014 If you have the extra speaker cables why not give it a try, you won't lose anything. As in everything audio there are conflicting opinions on the merits, if any. I had the Reference Studio100v2 for several years and always ran them bi-wired as that is how they came from the shop where I purchased them. Years later I contacted Paradigm and they said they didn't recommend it however that contradicted the speaker manual where they said bi-wiring was a "step-up" and then bi-amping another step-up
Zaphod Beeblebrox Posted August 3, 2014 Posted August 3, 2014 The answer depends on several factors, but first, you need to understand that there are two forms of bi-amping: 1) Using an electronic crossover before the power amps. 2) Not using an electronic crossover before the power amps (aka: 'passive bi-amping'). Using an electronic crossover will convey a number of advantages upon almost any loudspeaker, PROVIDED you know exactly what you are doing and can disable most of the internal crossover components in the loudspeaker. This is what almost all serious sound reinforcement systems use to gain high reliability, high power operation and greater efficiency. Either good documentation from the manufacturer, or considerable skill from the person setting up the system is required. Bi-amping without an electronic crossover is pretty much a complete waste of time, UNLESS you are using crappy amplification. Good quality amplifiers enjoy almost no benefit from passive bi-amping, whereas poorer quality amplifiers may allow some, VERY small gains. In that sense, you would be better to consider using a better quality amplifier, rather than two, crappy ones. 2
Chopsus Maximus Posted August 7, 2014 Posted August 7, 2014 Would you consider a Pre-amp that splits the signal into Hi and low frequency an electronic crossover?
Zaphod Beeblebrox Posted August 7, 2014 Posted August 7, 2014 Would you consider a Pre-amp that splits the signal into Hi and low frequency an electronic crossover? Yes.
Chopsus Maximus Posted August 7, 2014 Posted August 7, 2014 Yes. Ah, good that means I am not just imagining that my setup is better bi amped.
Zaphod Beeblebrox Posted August 7, 2014 Posted August 7, 2014 Ah, good that means I am not just imagining that my setup is better bi amped. Can you adjust the crossover frequencies to suit different speakers?
Chopsus Maximus Posted August 7, 2014 Posted August 7, 2014 I haven't drilled into the settings to find out ... It's an Integra 80.3
A9X Posted August 11, 2014 Posted August 11, 2014 I haven't drilled into the settings to find out ... It's an Integra 80.3 A quick scan on the OM doesn't say anything about it, so it's just basic passive bi-amping. Any improvement you heard was imagined.
muznuts Posted August 11, 2014 Author Posted August 11, 2014 The answer depends on several factors, but first, you need to understand that there are two forms of bi-amping: 1) Using an electronic crossover before the power amps. 2) Not using an electronic crossover before the power amps (aka: 'passive bi-amping'). Using an electronic crossover will convey a number of advantages upon almost any loudspeaker, PROVIDED you know exactly what you are doing and can disable most of the internal crossover components in the loudspeaker. This is what almost all serious sound reinforcement systems use to gain high reliability, high power operation and greater efficiency. Either good documentation from the manufacturer, or considerable skill from the person setting up the system is required. Bi-amping without an electronic crossover is pretty much a complete waste of time, UNLESS you are using crappy amplification. Good quality amplifiers enjoy almost no benefit from passive bi-amping, whereas poorer quality amplifiers may allow some, VERY small gains. In that sense, you would be better to consider using a better quality amplifier, rather than two, crappy ones. ok thanks for that ZB so is bi-amping using an electronic crossover done commonly for domestic systems?
A9X Posted August 11, 2014 Posted August 11, 2014 so is bi-amping using an electronic crossover done commonly for domestic systems? It's nowhere near as common as passive, but active speakers have been available for more than 30 years in domestic gear. I had a Linn DMS system in the 80's.
Zaphod Beeblebrox Posted August 11, 2014 Posted August 11, 2014 ok thanks for that ZB so is bi-amping using an electronic crossover done commonly for domestic systems? Bi-amping of any variant is relatively rare for domestic systems. Using an electronic crossover does, however, confer a number of advantages, IF DONE PROPERLY (which may not be easy). Not using an electronic crossover is, pretty much, a waste of time, money and effort.
Chopsus Maximus Posted August 11, 2014 Posted August 11, 2014 Bi-amping of any variant is relatively rare for domestic systems. Using an electronic crossover does, however, confer a number of advantages, IF DONE PROPERLY (which may not be easy). Not using an electronic crossover is, pretty much, a waste of time, money and effort. In the same way as some might describe expensive speaker wire, directional interconnects and audiophile power cables? I ask because I can't pick a difference with some things that are claimed to make a difference (like the above), but bi-amping my mains does sound better to me. If it is is a waste of time, why do so many manufacturers provide a bi-amp setting on their pre/pro's and receivers?
A9X Posted August 11, 2014 Posted August 11, 2014 If it is is a waste of time, why do so many manufacturers provide a bi-amp setting on their pre/pro's and receivers? Because it then becomes a feature when they are trying to sell the punters an AVR with more amp channels than they actually need or intend to use. At most it is a couple of c extra cost that may get them the sale. As many do all signal processing in a DSP it costs nothing but a couple of lines of code to allow sending the same signal to two channels. As for it sounding better, two words: sighted evaluation.
Zaphod Beeblebrox Posted August 11, 2014 Posted August 11, 2014 (edited) In the same way as some might describe expensive speaker wire, directional interconnects and audiophile power cables? No. I've explained this (many, MANY times before), but I'll do so once more: Active bi-amping (using an electronic crossover) confers a number of tangible, measurable and audible advantages for many systems, IF DONE PROPERLY. So-called 'passive bi-amping (not using an electronic crossover, confers almost no advantages for any system, UNLESS at least one of the amplifiers is severely compromised. IOW: Really crappy amplifiers may benefit slightly from 'passive bi-amping'. However, crappy amplifiers will benefit quite significantly from active bi-amping, IF DONE PROPERLY. I ask because I can't pick a difference with some things that are claimed to make a difference (like the above), but bi-amping my mains does sound better to me. As stated before, active bi-amping does make a significant difference. Passive bi-amping 'may' make a small difference, if using crappy amplifiers. IOW: An upgrade to your amplification may be your best choice. If it is is a waste of time, why do so many manufacturers provide a bi-amp setting on their pre/pro's and receivers? It depends on what you mean. If there is an electronic crossover involved (some amplifiers provide this function) then some significant differences will certainly be noted. It would also depend greatly on how those crossover frequencies mated with your speakers. Edited August 11, 2014 by Zaphod Beeblebrox
Chopsus Maximus Posted August 11, 2014 Posted August 11, 2014 (edited) OK ... just curious that I can't tell a difference with high% silver speaker wire (from bog standard oxygen free copper) or differing power cables, but can with the bi-amping in my system. Not complaining or wanting to start an argument about it though ... will leave my setup as it is though as I had the extra channels available on the power amp, speaker wire and pre/pro with a bi-amp setting anyway, and to me the end result sounds better. Edited August 11, 2014 by Chopsus Maximus 1
Chopsus Maximus Posted August 11, 2014 Posted August 11, 2014 Because it then becomes a feature when they are trying to sell the punters an AVR with more amp channels than they actually need or intend to use. At most it is a couple of c extra cost that may get them the sale. As many do all signal processing in a DSP it costs nothing but a couple of lines of code to allow sending the same signal to two channels. As for it sounding better, two words: sighted evaluation. Cheers .... if I ever decide to add presence or rear channels (again) I wont be too precious about reverting to bi-wire then.
Zaphod Beeblebrox Posted August 11, 2014 Posted August 11, 2014 OK ... just curious that I can't tell a difference with high% silver speaker wire (from bog standard oxygen free copper) or differing power cables, but can with the bi-amping in my system. The metal used in speaker wire is almost irrelevant to the sound quality. What is important (more correctly - MAY be important) is the geometry of the cable. Low inductance, low resistance cables may sound better in systems that require them. Without knowing the specifics of your bi-amping setup, I cannot comment. If it is passive bi-amped, then your result suggests the use of crappy amplification. Or, as stated by others, a sighted test. Not complaining or wanting to start an argument about it though ... will leave my setup as it is though as I had the extra channels available on the power amp, speaker wire and pro/pro with a bi-amp setting anyway, and to me the end result sounds better. OK.
Chopsus Maximus Posted August 11, 2014 Posted August 11, 2014 The metal used in speaker wire is almost irrelevant to the sound quality. What is important (more correctly - MAY be important) is the geometry of the cable. Low inductance, low resistance cables may sound better in systems that require them. Without knowing the specifics of your bi-amping setup, I cannot comment. If it is passive bi-amped, then your result suggests the use of crappy amplification. Or, as stated by others, a sighted test. OK. The power amp is an Elektra Theatron HD 7 ... I've never heard any Elektra described as crappy ... but perhaps I've strayed into more the pure waters that would.
Zaphod Beeblebrox Posted August 11, 2014 Posted August 11, 2014 The power amp is an Elektra Theatron HD 7 ... I've never heard any Elektra described as crappy ... but perhaps I've strayed into more the pure waters that would. I don't know that amplifier. I can only speak from theory and (VERY long) experience. Are you using an electronic crossover?
djb Posted August 11, 2014 Posted August 11, 2014 @@A9X lol so true VVV " it's just basic passive bi-amping. Any improvement you heard was imagined" Tried passive as many do about 5 yrs into this hobby I desperately wanted it to improve SQ I told self it did It did not
Chopsus Maximus Posted August 11, 2014 Posted August 11, 2014 (edited) Thanks guys. I'm happy and that's all that really matters to me. It could be worse ... I could have spent hundreds on replacing all my power cables. Edited August 11, 2014 by Chopsus Maximus
betty boop Posted August 11, 2014 Posted August 11, 2014 Hi, the amp i have allows me to bi-amp the Paradigm Studio 100's i just bought, is there any reason NOT to do it? the guy in the shop said there would be very little if any benefit except maybe when playing them really loud but its 2 channels in the amp that i will never use otherwise hi muz nuts, from my own experiece, the first time I experienced benefits of bi-amping was from some a stack of naim amps feeding some snell stand mounts, and then following that with some missions 753s I was demoing where certainly off cyrus amps with bi-amping the benefit was there. some years later coming across some B&W 805S again bi-amped off naim amps the benefit was there again. you can horizontally or vertically bi-amp. something I tried with some small mission 750LE with musical fidelity xa50 mono blocs and xa-100 integrated. The common thread in all this was the amps used were lowish power though still high quality. much more recently when I owned 753S I happened across chance to bi-amp with a pretty grunty amp in the musical fidelity a5cr and laws of diminishing returns as gains pretty small to point not worth it. my more recent upgrade in pre power has given me much bigger gains. the big question to always ask with bi-amping is rather than buying another amp to bi-amp is it worth just buying a better amp in the first place. if already have the amp and just a matter of trying...well I would just go for it and check out if any benefit there for you or not. like bi-wiring ... it does depend on the kind of xover your speaker uses, the speakers and amps themselves whether be of benefit or not. some good advice here from legend audio http://www.legendspeakers.com.au/biwiring.html also some good info from audioholics that goes right through the ins and outs and also providing disctintion with bi-wiring which often people confuse with, http://www.audioholics.com/frequent-questions/the-difference-between-biamping-vs-biwiring
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