Soundstage stereo seperation: But how and why.

[Luc]

Listening to a vintage set up at the moment which features my newly 'skippyfied' Au-7900 driving my Silverline Preludes and some cables I kinda put together myself with WBT spades and some lovely gold plated wire connectors that suit the old style speaker terminals on the Sansui and then it's the LP12 with Deno SUT into the DV P75 mk111.

 

Music is 70's recorded albums with the odd later 180grm jobby thrown into the mix.

 

I'm struck by the separation I'm hearing in and amidst the soundstage, the SQ is lovely; lush with sparkling mids and nice wompy occasionally doofy bass and a warm timbre, a very warm and cosy sound. The stereo separation is such that I keep  swivelling around in my chair to stare at firstly the speakers and then settle back trying to listen critically to the set up.

 

Does the amp impart the kind of separation I'm hearing or is it the well recorded LP's and the delineation between  instruments done by the sound engineer? Or is it a combination of all the parts coming together(correct speaker position and listening possy ect)

 

The soundstage is such that I can't pick the individual speakers until I hear the individual instruments playing and when I can place them on that soundstage.

 

It's a very enjoyable listening session at the moment and it just got me thinking what is going on here. I'd have to drop my Redgum back into the mix to truly test it but I don't remember this degree of clarity and separation before when I was using the same music and speakers/TT  but different cables.

 

Interested to hear your thoughts if you have any.

 

 

 

 

[Toma Audio]

Some gear does soundstage in a surgical matter that is too clean cut for me personally. It sounds like the Sansui is providing a slightly more laid back but more generous soundstage? It is the classic difference between the ultra high resolution system that is a bit too clinical, and a more "musical" system that engages you that little bit more. Be careful mate, you may end up turning to tubes for that magic. Oops too late

[Guest BobbyD]

Ah tubes......... There is no going back..... But you will be happy!

[THOMO]

Probably down to the preamp section of the Sansui or rather the interaction between your TT/SUT/Phono stage and that preamp.

The old amps were designed for vinyl replay.Have you tried the phono stage in the Sansui with just the SUT ?

[Luc]

Probably down to the preamp section of the Sansui or rather the interaction between your TT/SUT/Phono stage and that preamp.

The old amps were designed for vinyl replay.Have you tried the phono stage in the Sansui with just the SUT ?

 

@@THOMO . No I haven't as I think my LOMC may not work due to it's low 1.8mV. Either @@skippy124 or @@Telecine mentioned the Sansui's phono stage limitations in relation to this cart's low voltage.

[Telecine]

@@Luc It will work with the SUT.

[Luc]

Well there goes my mornings planned gardening then...

[THOMO]

@@THOMO . No I haven't as I think my LOMC may not work due to it's low 1.8mV. Either @@skippy124 or @@Telecine mentioned the Sansui's phono stage limitations in relation to this cart's low voltage.

Yes try plugging the SUT into the Sansui phono stage.

Some of the old Sansui's have nice sounding fully discrete phono stages.

[davewantsmoore]

Interested to hear your thoughts if you have any.

 

If you meditate on what 'causes' the stereo effect ... then I think you are right to conclude it is "all the things"....   Anything which might corrupt the channel balance will kill the stereo effect.... but this is in stark contrast to the way most people express it, where they talk of a specific component or thing which "improves" or "provides" good stereo / soundstage.

 

You don't need a high end component to "provide extra" soundstage ....  You just need a an entire system where no component is defective or badly setup.

 

You can get beautiful soundstage from 3" fullrange drivers in plastic boxes with a 10w class D amplifier   (ie.  tinny little computer speakers), if they the listener and speakers are arranged well, and there are no channel imbalance problems, or gross amplitude/phase errors.

 

 

You are also right to think that the recording plays an enormous part in this.... and IMO many modern recordings are devoid of real natural sounding stereo .... they sound dead (there's nothing in the lower amplitudes giving clues about the 'recording space')... and the spatial effects sound artificial  (they were added in post-production).

 

 

I'd have to drop my Redgum back into the mix to truly test it

 

Amplifiers can affect the sound ....   but IMHO when we look deeply into it, we see that it's because each amplifier affects the speaker response in different ways .....  not because of some inherent property of the amplifier which says  "this amp has great soundstage".

 

I think for too long people have looked at the frequency response graph of two different amplifiers driving the same speaker, and dismissed differences of 1dB (or whatever) as "not much" ..... whereas in reality this can be quite a large difference depending on what effect we are examining.     Yes, we struggle to hear a 1dB amplitude difference when the volume of a tone is changed up or down   .... but OTOH, a 1dB difference when considering the modulation of multiple tones, or the balance between frequency extremes, or the difference in level between two channels.....  is often quite significant.

[Rob181]

My guess is the Sansui Pre...go back to the Redgum...you will see what I mean...

 

Not so long ago I compared 2 tube amps...on one the sound stage was significantly wider & more 3 dimensional...the change was not subtle & maybe not accurate...but was fantastic to listen to... 

[Luc]

Thanks Rob,  increased and better, "three dimensional", is the phrase that best suits what I was hearing.

 

 

You are also right to think that the recording plays an enormous part in this.... and IMO many modern recordings are devoid of real natural sounding stereo .... they sound dead (there's nothing in the lower amplitudes giving clues about the 'recording space')... and the spatial effects sound artificial  (they were added in post-production).

 

 

 

@@davewantsmoore . That runs with Rob's three dimensional comment. Spatial effects are described as?

[Pulse-R]

micro dynamics add the feel to a sound stage.

if they're lost in noise or other distortion, you get less sense of space.

[davewantsmoore]

Spatial effects are described as?

 

Being able to hear what is in the recording.    ie.  The stereo (or 'spatial') illusions caused by differences between the channels.

[evil c]

My theory is it's all related to having excellent synergy with the components in your system coupled with critical speaker placement in your room which itself needs to have reasonably good acoustics.

And then there's the matter of having a recording that's able to take advantage of this with relatively few being in the rarefied 3D surround effect realm with a few coming to mind being Roger Waters - Amused to death and Sting - The Soul cages which both utilize Qsound mixing.

[Luc]

Album that specifically got me listening and thinking about this was a recently washed and cleaned 1978 Doobie's album

 

 

It comes out of my speakers in a way that makes me want to just stay and listen to it over and over again. I need to do some more switching and shuffling of cables and things and try the Sansui's phono stage as already suggested.

[evil c]

It is a great recording - everything does indeed disappear into a large sound-stage and it never fails to impress me with the dynamics and effortless ease in sounding so right!

(That's with a Jap pressing though!)

Have a listen on vinyl also to Donald Fagen - The Nightfly, Tim Finn - Escapade or Icehouse - Measure for Measure which are all great 80"s recordings

Edited August 2, 2014 by evil angelist

[Luc]

@ : Thxs Clive

[TMM]

The recording itself and the configuration of the listening room/speakers will affect stereo separation far more than anything else. Crosstalk between channels in the signal chain (preamp/amp/EQ/processors/etc) can reduce stereo separation but the effects are usually inaudible.

Reflections off walls can give a false soundstage - it can appear wider or narrower than it should be.

[The Fez]

Have you heard the exact set up prior to the amplifier restoration?

[Luc]

Have you heard the exact set up prior to the amplifier restoration?

 

@@The Fez . No, I'd not, the amp were sent straight to Skippy from the sellers. I have heaps and heaps of different configs' I can do with swapping in and out of amps(yes they are all Sansui basically at this stage) and cable's and removing the phono/pre stage and just using the SUT into them but I'm enjoying the results of perhaps John's refurb and also other bits of the equation.

 

I'm still leaning towards the older records being completely different to the new though at this stage.

[djb]

Hard to decide what affects SQ and how when you set up a completely new system you'd have to replace the bits 1 by 1

ONLY changing 1 a week

Yes it's all

No it is NOT equally all

I opt for the amp

A truly good amp provides the blackness between the notes

This in turn provides the Seperation of musical line you can follow in your head through the entire track

And to agree with someone above-I've noticed it most radically with SET vslve amps

PS it should not be the pre

Purpose of sbprevisnt to influence its to neutrally transfer and yes it might make things clearer I still say the amplification.

Edited August 2, 2014 by djb

[audiomuze (R.I.P)]

Stereo image is principally a function of the mix, speaker placement relative to listening position and the room.

[Luc]

@ that's basically what I was thinking as at the moment I've got the speakers in a good possy for me, I know where the sound stage should be and when it's not, well I worry and of course then it's time to fiddle but since I've got the Linn going I'm playing a heap of washed+cleaned records from the 70's+80's and it seems more often than not that they are presenting a sound that is beautifully separated musically and the SQ is enjoyable and there is good depth.

 

I honestly can't say that I feel quite the same way about the music when the front end is my CDP but then again I don't have that many albums that are also in my CD collection at this stage of the journey.

 

The actual mastering has to have a lot to do with it though doesn't it.

[buddyev]

@

I honestly can't say that I feel quite the same way about the music when the front end is my CDP but then again I don't have that many albums that are also in my CD collection at this stage of the journey.

That's exactly my experience, Luc. I also don't have a lot of vinyl and cd double ups to compare but it was the first thing that hit me when I first got my tt - not necessarily a clinical separation of instruments but a more expansive stage

[Luc]

There's a lot of descriptions for it Russ isn't there but, it's that indefinable quality for me that has me just playing records and buying them like a mad thing when I know I shouldn't.

 

As I type I have this CD on and it's really well recorded to my ears, it has warmth, there is nothing really clinical about it at all

 

and yet I'd love to have this on vinyl because I think the missing ingredient is located on the vinyl.

 

There is separation here listening to this lovely music but reams and reams have been written about analogue hasn't it and that sound.

 

*Did we discuss this or acknowledge this particular album at some stage in the past? If not then I suggest you chase it up as it's a nice thing to listen to on this cold drizzly afternoon here and I'm sure it'd be a welcome addition to a Sunday afternoon, late evening in your fantastic lounge room looking through those windows to the yard and up.