Classifying Systems (Audio food groups)

[Uncle Ad]

Hey team,

 

I am looking to replace/upgrade my old system. I am just starting to do some research and will shortly be annoying hifi dealers from Newcastle to Sydney to hear as much gear as I can to work out what I like.

 

In an effort to short cut this process (and I realise this may not be possibe), I am wondering if audio falls into some basic categories or styles that I can check out and then narrow it down to what I like/can afford/find once i determine what I basically like eg high powered SS amps or low wattage valve amps etc.

 

I have read about people selling gear on here to go in a new direction, what are the basic directions/philosophies? I am trying to avoid listening to 50 systems but still not sampling all of the basic food groups on offer.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

Adam

 

 

[DAMO 1147]

Pretty tough assignment, Adam - but I guess I belong to the

 

‘efficient single driver - generally with tube amps or low powered class A SS, sometimes augmented with a tweeter, -set’. 

  

I tend to also like point source speakers – as well, so tweeter & driver in one – ala Kef LS50’s.

 

In general when i hear multi driver with cross over they don’t do it for me as much as above, but that not to say there not good speakers my mate Proacs are really good!!

 

At present - I run Zu audio with an Audion SE Audion El 34 amp and Vintage Sansui AU 505, and a destination speaker is something like a Trenner & Freidi, horns also look interesting to me – and this is also a DIY playground - to give you an idea.

 

cheers Damo

[Uncle Ad]

Thanks for the reply Damo,

 

I have really only heard SS amps with multidrivers. Tube amps with effcient speakers is something I really want to check out, and the Zu gear in particular looks really cool, which has to count for something right. That is what got me thinking about the other types of systems I should investigate.

 

I have noticed, from the few systems I have checked out in shops, that even though my old Aaron ATS 5s and Yamaha amp are not flash, the sound has a certain size and weight that I don't hear so far with smaller speakers. I am interested to find out if this is because of the quality of the speakers and amps I have demoed or just physics in that bigger drivers and more powerful amps sound bigger? I also think I am used to my system with all it's faults in a weird sentimental way that makes it hard to be objective.

 

Ad

[RockandorRoll]

its a great topic and i like Damos suggestion of 'efficient single driver'. End of the day the advice should be to listen to as much as you can and see what suits you. But thats a cliche these days, classifying systems can be much more fun

 

ill throw some more in and people can pick them to pieces

- High Power Multidriver (rock)

- High Power Electrostatics (Acoustic, singer)

- Low powered Horns (vocals)

- High power Tubes, multidriver (calling this the Romantic category)

- Warm (tubes or class A into "British' sounding speakers, B&W, PMC etc)

- Basshead, highpowered amps with added subwoofers

 

 

etc etc

[gemini07]

I'll throw some other elements into the equation for you to consider:

 

Home theatre or stereo only?

 

Room acoustics - there is enough information on this topic in SNA to keep you busy for a while, but it is an important consideration.

 

Your existing music sources and your intentions there (CD, vinyl, high res downloads etc)

 

Current musical tastes and what you like, otherwise the length of that piece of string gets awfully long. Eg, would you describe your preferences as being warm with soft mellow richness, or more detailed, with a lean, airy sound? (I know this is fraught with danger guys, but you know the general point I'm trying to make). If you have compared for example a Dynaudio bookshelf speaker with an equivalent size/price Proac you'll understand what I mean.

 

Lots of other etc's.

 

Enjoy the journey..

[Uncle Ad]

Hey Gemini,

 

Thanks for the reply.

 

I am not into home theatre just stereo. (I really dig mono too, that's probably weird?)

 

Room acoustics will always be the weakest link in my home. This will be true for any system I buy. Do you think it is smart to consider this when looking to buy new components and should this influence my gear choices or are you saying just that it needs to be considered and treatments for my room would be similar for any gear purchased?

 

I have recently bought a DAC to replace my dead CD player. I can't see me buying another CD player altough I have been playing CDs through a cheap DVD player going to the DAC and then amp. I will probably do this unti I get more of my collection archived. I love vinyl but only play it when I have time to listen to a side or two and the kids are not around. I plan to get a lot more vinyl in the future but it is just not practical at them moment. More of an indulgence when I have time and the house kid free.

 

I am mostly into jazz, blues , rock, John Scofield, Chris Potter, Wayne Krantz, Bill Frisell, Kenny Burrell, Grant Green, Miles, Wayne Shorter etc. Robben Ford, Govt Mule, Allman Bros, early ZZ Top, Hendrix, Blues Breakers, Jeff Beck. Not much classical, not too much female vocal, no metal. A fair bit of older music I guess and some of those albums i love are not particularly well recorded but the performances are usually killing.

 

My preference probably leans slightly towards the warmer fatter end of the spectrum without sounding like mush, happy to have some colouration and character in preference to absolute accuracy and thinner soudning. My "warm" might be someone elses "mud"?

 

Cheers

 

Ad

[DAMO 1147]

Good post gem I was thinking the same thing.

Ad with that info on board I'd be starting with the best of British, can go with tubes or SS.

I think single drivers may be to forward for jazz as a generalisation but there a real live sound.

I think you could start your auditioning there, if you don't find anything you like you can branch out.

Mind you good speakers are good speakers so will reproduce all music. proac would be good start.

Budget?

[Uncle Ad]

Thanks again Damo,

 

I am hoping to spend a max of around $3k for an integrated amp second hand. Would be happier to spend a lot less. I am hoping to find the general flavour of amp and speakers I like and then buy something from that group. e.g if Luxman and Leben are a similar flavour that I dig then I will take whatever comes along for the right $.

 

I will probably be more fussy about getting the right speakers but at least i will have an amp that's in the ball park and I can audtion speakers with.

 

I am not looking for the holy grail but really just want a great sounding rig. I have too many other interests where I spend $ trying to chase the last 5%.haha

 

I will try and audition some proacs for sure.

 

This is a dumb question but can you point me in the direction of some brands that are "British" sounding? I'll do a search in the meantime.

 

Ad

[DAMO 1147]

Now - not all british sounds come form Britain anymore - PMC, ProAc, HArberth - B& W depending on if you want standmounts, rogers spendor.

 

Proac's and Harbeth, PMC  would be my starting point - narrow it down look out for a S/H bargin.

[A9X]

There are a few types of audio systems:

1: those that reproduce as accurately as possible the source material, irrespective of what it is,

2: those that try to do 1, but lack something, usually bass,

3: mass market systems that just provide the user with some sound and it is enough for them, and,

4: audiophile systems that contain a plethora of expensive parts (and usually at least one voodoo component) and are often used for playing the same shallow gene pool audiophile discs, and little else.

[k-k-k-kenny]

There's a CS300 Leben for sale in the classifieds at present for $1600, which is well within your limit. Opinions expressed here on these have varied, and I can't help as I've not heard one at all. Not very powerful at 2 x 12w.

 

In Luxman tube integrated you might think of the SQ-38 series, made 1963 to mid-70s. By the time the SQ-38F (for final) came out in 1968 they'd gone from 2 x 10 or 12w to 2 x 30w, and this held through to the SQ-38FDII of 1974. They sold heaps of them and there are always some available on Yahoo Japan auctions - expect to pay Â¥65-95,000.  Then there's the SQ-38 Signature of 1995 (2x30w), and SQ-38D Reissue of 1998 (2x12w) which aren't so common, and run in the Â¥180-200,000 range. On-line shop Hifi-do knocks out the earlier ones at over USD2,000 each, which is an indication that they remain highly regarded there.

 

And of course, delving into the world of foreign auctions has its perils: you're buying sight unseen, and although my experience suggests that Japanese vendors are by and large scrupulously honest, there's no effective redress if you're unhappy. Chances are, though, that if you did take the plunge but weren't in love with the sound, you could flip it on ePay without suffering much loss.

 

Sounds as though you listen to a lot of what I listen to - if you don't have to have really pumping bass you could enjoy going down the low-wattage/hi eff route. (Not horns, with which I am unfamiliar.) In this connection I'd highly recommend that you try to hear Red Spade Audio's HE2 speakers with one of Earle Weston's amps: they combine very well. Irrespective, check out Earle's amps if you possibly can - I'd forgotten how inexpensive they are for an entirely hand built product until I checked again just now.

Edited July 31, 2014 by k-k-k-kenny

[k-k-k-kenny]

There are a few types of audio systems:

...

4: audiophile systems that contain a plethora of expensive parts (and usually at least one voodoo component) and are often used for playing the same shallow gene pool audiophile discs, and little else.

Oh yes, please.

[Uncle Ad]

There are a few types of audio systems:

1: those that reproduce as accurately as possible the source material, irrespective of what it is,

2: those that try to do 1, but lack something, usually bass,

3: mass market systems that just provide the user with some sound and it is enough for them, and,

4: audiophile systems that contain a plethora of expensive parts (and usually at least one voodoo component) and are often used for playing the same shallow gene pool audiophile discs, and little else.

Hey AX9 I determined to acheive No.2 on the list

 

Kenny, thanks for the reply mate. I have been looking at that Leben CS300 a few times a day. I need to get out and hear some low wattage valve amps but I like the idea of them. If the Weston gear is anywhere near the quality of the Aussie made guitar amps I own then I really want to check them out. Something to be said for being able to talk directly to the bloke who built an amp.

 

Damo, that's given me a great place to start and I will organise to check out those speakers you suggested. My old amp has packed it in so a new amp first on the agenda. If this was not the case I might have gone the route most often suggested and started with the speakers and then found an amp to drive them. At least if I do my homework now I can have a plan and start heading in that direction.

[wolster]

When you get down to short lists, see if you can audition in your own home, particularly as you say your listening room has some challenges.

That will assist you to shorten the list further.

[DAMO 1147]

I think @@hugo_wilco used to run the leben cs300 into harbeths, i could not recomend Earles creations hughly enough for SQ + value,  Recentley I heard his mono's blocks. Not sure on his wait list for new? 

 

Yep a bit back to front going the amp first but there is many ways to Audio nirvana,

 

let us know how you get on.

[gemini07]

Ad,

 

Re your query about room acoustics, I mainly meant you should consider which speakers sound best in the room you intend using them. Room treatments might come later.

 

Personally, my preferred approach would be to firstly identify the type/s of speakers you enjoy most, then consider the amp best suited to get the most from those speakers, rather than the other way around. Otherwise you run a risk of getting a nice amp which might not be optimal for the speakers you later identify. A safe way of going about it is to not buy anything until you've heard various gear in total and in combination. And as many others have said, try to get a home audition if possible, using the same music.

 

Another personal suggestion is to strongly consider Australian gear. We have many excellent speaker manufacturers who produce great stuff at extremely competitive prices. Lenehan, Osborn, Duntech and VAF and a number of others should be able to able to suit your general requirements, whilst Redgum, Quasimodo and Aksa/Aspen amp's are very highly regarded here and overseas. Not only will you save a bundle, but the customer service and assistance in getting what you want is second to none IMO. Also, these people genuinely appreciate customer interaction and feedback and make the whole experience the fun it should be.

 

Cheers

[Malcolm]

There are a few types of audio systems:

1: those that reproduce as accurately as possible the source material, irrespective of what it is,

2: those that try to do 1, but lack something, usually bass,

3: mass market systems that just provide the user with some sound and it is enough for them, and,

4: audiophile systems that contain a plethora of expensive parts (and usually at least one voodoo component) and are often used for playing the same shallow gene pool audiophile discs, and little else.

You forgot to add .

Those who think tube amps is a magic bullet

 

 

Why do people feel the need to be pigeon holed .

Edited July 31, 2014 by Malcolm

[Sparkle]

just a thought, if you like your sound warmer, those b and w standmount speakers with the roundy back are actually quite entertaining. Sorry dont know the number as im not really a fan, but I think these are the best B and W irrespective of price. There are the Masaratis, but a little to expensive. Amps? You decide.

[Uncle Ad]

Thanks Gemini, great advice. I will be listening to as much as possible to work out what I like. Given my financial position and the fact that my current amp is dead I will probably purchase an amp first but only after I know what amp/speaker combo I like. 

 

People on this forum are super nice and helpful, even for newbies like myself. Cheers for taking the time guys.

 

Ad

[k-k-k-kenny]

You forgot to add .

Those who think tube amps is a magic bullet .

I thought everybody knew this already.

[unclemack]

I'm with Gemini on this. The speakers will be the biggest determiner of the sound/ The amp and sources will be what you buy to squeeze the potential from your speakers. Find the speakers first, then move to the electronics...

M

[almikel]

Hi Ad,

• clearly talking about a stereo setup
• sounds like you're looking at decent stand mounts, or floor stander speakers
• you're considering valve - so speaker efficiency is a consideration
• you mention a challenging room, so speaker "off axis" response should also be a consideration

I'd consider:

• as suggested above Weston amps if going down valve amp path - I've never heard one of Earle's amps but they're very well regarded here, and Australian designed and hand built.
• You would never go wrong with a pair of Harbeth speakers -  a heritage coming off the back of years of BBC research back when there were budgets for that stuff - and they have that British sound - whatever that is
• as mentioned above, I would also consider speakers from the Red Spade stable - and discuss your requirements directly with Paul Spencer via PM/email - many of Paul's speakers consider off axis response, which can ameliorate the need for treatment in trickier rooms (all rooms still benefit from well designed treatment though)
• in any budget I would consider acoustic treatment - IMO treatment is the cheapest and best upgrade to any hi fi system - it can be added later, but it makes a massive difference - IMO the best stereo in a bad room will be easily blown away by a far more modest stereo in a sensibly treated room
• as also mentioned above, if going down the solid state path AKSA amps are well regarded, and again designed and built in Australia
• consider adding a sub either now or later - even if you're not a bass nut (I've become addicted), 2 way mains especially, but 3 ways also, will benefit from a well integrated sub

cheers

Mike

[Green Wagon]

Only had a skim through the replies.

my 2c.

 

speakers.

these will be the single biggest item in anyones system.

get these 'wrong' (to your ears) and no amount of amp/cable/source will save you.

 

some speakers demand heaps of transistor grunt, others the smallest amount of valve distortion warmth. (ohhhhhhhhh im gunna cop it from the valve boys )

 

yes the other parts have an effect, but they will be comparatively minor.

 

make a 'test' cd with some tracks that you know and love.

vary the tracks, this will help you work out if the speaker has what it takes to be in the running.

make a list of the ones youve heard, make notes, too much boom, to much treble, etc.

listening to several a day etc will start to confuse you and screw up what you think you heard. (ear/brain fatigue)

 

once you have your short list, have a rest for a week or two, then go visit those again.

if at all possible, try and have an in home trial.

what works well in a tuned show room, may sound like crud in your place..

 

Being in nsw, check out Geoff at Toma.

not to mention having a look in the sponsor section for others.

maybe go to some gtg's to broaden your ideas......

[Uncle Ad]

Thanks guys. I have a bit of a list of speakers to investigate as a starting point. The hardest part is going to be tracking down speakers to audition here in NSW. Luckily I can hear some Zu speakers a few hours drive away and B&W are everywhere. Harbeth, Proac and PMC will be a bit trickier. Happy to try and hear as much as possible but really want to include those. I may need to make a trip out of NSW to check out some of this stuff.

[Mondegreen]

You definitely can't go wrong with harbeth, I had a pair and loved them. The only upgrade I considered in the end was to my trenner & friedls, and that was after extensive listening.

I haven't heard Zu, but I really like what they're on about. The only thing I'd say is that with that size driver, you have to be a little skeptical about their claimed efficiency. It's really difficult to get a large woofer to perform above 93-94db, and some single drivers have been caught out in tests simply not living up to those numbers.

To run really low wattage amps with a linear speaker response, you probably have to look to horns or amazing hybrids like Rethms. I nearly bought Rethms... Otherwise they will likely lack a certain 'something'.

When looking for a valve amp, it's important that the noise floor is low. They can be lovely, but a little muddy, wooly or syrupy sometimes. You can lose a lot, or it might only sound good with certain musical styles. But a well made valve amp with good efficient speakers is a match made in heaven. Unless you listen to techno, or a lot of electronic music.

The final point to my rant is that I really think big drivers make a difference. Drivers above 8" just make music sound great, and gets the air moving.

Hope that helps!