Silent Screamer Posted July 22, 2014 Author Posted July 22, 2014 Paul, what evidence is there that the PS audio board you've got that is tripping is doing so because of high volts? I doubt that is the cause of spurious trips IMO. Good question... I don't know if it is tripping from high voltage or not. That would be the obvious conclusion to jump to, but I really don't know if it is the cause. Every time I have measured the power points I am seeing voltages between high 240's and low 250's, and since the PS Audio board is not supposed to clamp voltage until something like 278v I doubt it would be the over power circuit kicking in, and then I would only expect it to supress the extra voltage. not trip. But it has tripped three times on that same circuit since it has been in place, whereas I didn't have a single issue with the Thor power board. Granted I have two new amps in the mix now (the one I got off of Rob and the Halcro) but I have also taken the two Rotel's out. I have been giving some thought comments made by Zaphod Bebblebrox about some devices have made the sound worse and was considering just plugging the two amps directly into the wall since I have spare points. I would do this for two reasons, one to see if there is any improvement to be had by taking the power board out of the equation, and two to see if it is responsible for the board tripping.
Silent Screamer Posted July 22, 2014 Author Posted July 22, 2014 Well I tried plugging the amps directly into the wall vs the power board. Interesting exercise, plugged into the board sounds marginally more refined, but it only a very small percentage better. I certainly wouldn't be buying one based on the sound performance difference alone.
Stereophilus Posted July 22, 2014 Posted July 22, 2014 @@Silent Screamer I have some thoughts for you. Firstly, not all power conditioners work the same way. However, they must all increase mains impedance (and therefore limit current) in series with your equipment, even if only through the extra power cord to the mains outlet. Some connected equipment may not benefit from power conditioning IF it's power supply is already highly regulated and well designed. In such cases, adding a power conditioner can only add series impedance, and therefore limit the performance. This may or may not be audible. Power regulators control voltage swings within a tighter range -eg Thor PS10. They do not remove powerline noise, and, they can limit current, depending on their internal design. Power conditioners use series or parallel resistors and or capacitors and or inductors to remove power line noise -eg Shunyata Triton. These are passive devices, often "absorbing" something of the incoming power to provide a cleaner, but somewhat limited output. These devices often have no or limited capacity to regulate voltage. Finally, you have power regenerators like the PS Audio gear and Isotek regenerators. These are basically uniquely designed power amplifiers, supplying a regenerated perfect sine wave to connected equipment. This output is both voltage regulated and low noise. Some incoming powerline noise leaks into their output, and they are limited by their own current output capabilities in a similar way to traditional power amps. Interestingly the PS Audio gear allows you to fiddle the sinewave shape, which can make unique sound quality differences to any connected equipment. I say all this as an owner of a P10, ear science filters and a Thor PS10 (previously).
Silent Screamer Posted July 22, 2014 Author Posted July 22, 2014 (edited) Thanks for the fundamental run down on the different types and effects. This sort of information is quite useful and far more easily digested than someone just saying don't do it. Interestingly the PS Audio gear allows you to fiddle the sinewave shape, which can make unique sound quality differences to any connected equipment. A question springs to mind from this statement... Do we perceive any change in sonic presentation as being better just because it is different or do we actually note the improvement? Let me simplify that question... just because we hear something has changed do we automatically assume it is better and worth spending the money? As the owner of a P10 do you feel it has improved the sound? Edited July 22, 2014 by Silent Screamer
Stereophilus Posted July 22, 2014 Posted July 22, 2014 A question springs to mind from this statement... Do we perceive any change in sonic presentation as being better just because it is different or do we actually note the improvement? Let me simplify that question... just because we hear something has changed do we automatically assume it is better and worth spending the money? As the owner of a P10 do you feel it has improved the sound? Hifi is the science of reproducing musical emotion. As such it is art as well. Ergo it is subjective. Not all change in a hifi system is good, but, from the scientific perspective, it does help to understand the system better. From an artistic perspective, change often leads to new perspectives on the same musical picture, and therefore often perceived as initially better. The multiwave function on the P10 and P5 extends the current charging time for connected equipment improving the charging time for power supply capacitors in attached equipment. This should be most noticeable in transient bass reproduction from attached power amplifiers. The effect is apparent to me in my system, but only in the maximum setting.
rocky500 Posted July 22, 2014 Posted July 22, 2014 (edited) I went for a Thor PS10 as to just feel safer with the Chinese gear I have brought. I then updated the power board to a PS audio Detect running off the Thor. The PS occasionally trips off and this seems to be a known fault. Supposedly needs a flash update. Will have to package it back up one day and send it off. One thing this has done with my system, is it sounds very consistent, no matter the time of day. Before I use to get days, when it would sound pretty bad and then later on it would be like listening to a different stereo. It would open right up. Edited July 22, 2014 by rocky500
Silent Screamer Posted July 22, 2014 Author Posted July 22, 2014 Thanks for the tip on the board tripping Rob, will need to speak to reseller about this.
PKay Posted July 23, 2014 Posted July 23, 2014 Yes consistency is what I am looking for... Just checked the power point that my gear is plugged into and with 30 seconds of monitoring it went from 250v to 253v with it spending 70% of the time on 252v. My main concern is that my new $500 PS Audio power board has tripped 3 times in the last few weeks turning off the power board and everything connected to it. I had exactly the same problem when I got the new power board. It kept tripping and I live on the lower north shore in Sydney which has reasonable power. The PS board is set for US type fluctuations which are lower than ours. Magenta sent me the firmware update and I did it myself (incredibly simple for a non techie) and sent it back to them. No problems since the firmware update. Like you it got me worried and I started looking at power conditioners and since the firmware update I have given up on power conditioners and will spend the money on a server.
Silent Screamer Posted July 23, 2014 Author Posted July 23, 2014 How do you do a firmware upgrade on a power board? What port do you use?
rocky500 Posted July 24, 2014 Posted July 24, 2014 Anyone else in W.A. have a PS Audio Dectet power board?
PKay Posted July 24, 2014 Posted July 24, 2014 How do you do a firmware upgrade on a power board? What port do you use? It is pretty simple - you have to pop the top off and there is a chip that has some pins. You get some sort of an electronic dongle with matching pins and insert the dongle press the button, wait a few seconds till the green light comes on, remove dongle rescrew the top of the power board and it is done. You can take it back to the shop or send it to Adelaide both of which involve cost and time. I had Magenta send me the tool and i sent it back to them within a few days.
Silent Screamer Posted July 24, 2014 Author Posted July 24, 2014 I had exactly the same problem when I got the new power board. It kept tripping and I live on the lower north shore in Sydney which has reasonable power. The PS board is set for US type fluctuations which are lower than ours. Magenta sent me the firmware update and I did it myself (incredibly simple for a non techie) and sent it back to them. No problems since the firmware update. Like you it got me worried and I started looking at power conditioners and since the firmware update I have given up on power conditioners and will spend the money on a server. Just contacted Wynn from Simply Hi Fi who sold me the power board and he kindly made the same offer to send me the device to do it myself. My biggest concern is voltage regulations, removing hum from two device (voltage regulation might fix one of them), then other benefits of signal filtering / cleaning. Was just looking at the Purepower http://www.purepoweraps.com/ but only the very brave would dare to buy one. Apparently they are very hard to source from the Canadian company, and correspondence is extremely poor and slow. I then started looking for reviews and found this http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?fcabl&1352917713 IF you manage to get a good one everyone raves about how fantastic they are, draw a dud and you are in for a world of pain. Also was looking at the Eaton http://powerquality.eaton.com/Products-services/Power-Conditioning/PowerSure800.asp but they are extremely noisy and to me are not acceptable limits, but the specs otherwise look pretty good.
andyr Posted September 13, 2014 Posted September 13, 2014 Here at my place the voltage can be anything from 230V to 250+V depending on hour of day (and as high as 260 V+ on occasions). The gear will still function fine (at least mine did, but YMMV). Surely that's the nub of the argument (for or against "power conditioning")? Yes, as most of them are current-limited, they will make the sound worse than when the power amp is plugged straight into the wall. But if your mains is jumping around in voltage, as power amps are generally not regulated, this AC voltage variation must be degrading the sound also! In contrast to source devices which typically do have a regulated power supply. Andy
andyr Posted September 13, 2014 Posted September 13, 2014 The best was the PS Audio device. Even it, however, sounded WORSE, when used with quality equipment. Poor quality equipment benefited from using most power conditioners. MORAL: Forget power conditioners and buy decent equipment in the first place. But surely, ZB, the sound of even one of your "decent" power amps will be degraded if the mains voltage is dancing around from 230v to 250v ... compared to if it was constantly 240v. The trouble is - nearly everyone's power supply (in Oz) is rarely at a constant voltage. However, I can understand why a power "regulator" device will not bring any benefit to a source component - which typically has a regulated PS, which delivers constant DC rails. But, in my experience, an isolating transformer on a source device can deliver a sonic benefit. Regards, Andy
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