Rear speaker question

[Tony ray]

I currently run Paradigm atoms bookshelfs rear ported as rears in actual bookshelves in our 5.1 setup up against the rear wall at a height of 1.7 m.

The room is 6m long by 4.4 m wide the receiver is Yamaha RXA 3020 with 9.2 capability and the other speakers are matching Paradigm.

The question is could it improve the sound if I use proper surround speakers . At the moment the sound seems to come from the front and back,

not so much the side.

 

The ceiling height is 2.4 and the seating position is 3m off the front wall.

Thanks in advance Tony

 

[betty boop]

Tony, from what you describe it would appear you are using a couple of bookshelf speakers in what would be traditional "rear speaker" location for a 7.1 setup. if your setup is only 5.1 this places you in the box seat ! to add a couple of side surrounds…something like the paradigm ADPs which are purpose built for side surround duties. this will take your system out to a 7.1 system. the new surrounds you would hook up as left and right surrounds and your current rears you would hook up as left and right rear surounds. the new left and right side surrounds will fill the need you have for side surrounds

 

location of side surrounds such as the ADPs is usually at either side of the main listening position…i.e. 90deg location to as far back as 110 deg behind the listening position.

 

http://www.paradigm.com/products-current/type=surround

 

[Tony ray]

After a bit of researching today into the all the different surrounds available ( monopole, bipole, dipole, ADP pole, im sure I missed a couple more) I was recommended the monitor 1 surround which is called bi-directional.

It timbre matches the rest of the speakers but seems small but was advised I did not need the bigger monitor 3 which is twice the price. I will probably go with the monitor 1 unless suggested otherwise.

 

All this pole stuff is confusing but I did read that Dolby Atmos was saying that all speakers need to be timbre matched and direct firing I think which I think is monopole. My head hurts im going now

[astr0b0y]

Most important is to carefully read what Al has posted. If you replace your speakers with another set in the same position you will likely end up with the same issue - that the sound is coming from behind you.

[betty boop]

After a bit of researching today into the all the different surrounds available ( monopole, bipole, dipole, ADP pole, im sure I missed a couple more) I was recommended the monitor 1 surround which is called bi-directional.

It timbre matches the rest of the speakers but seems small but was advised I did not need the bigger monitor 3 which is twice the price. I will probably go with the monitor 1 unless suggested otherwise.

 

All this pole stuff is confusing but I did read that Dolby Atmos was saying that all speakers need to be timbre matched and direct firing I think which I think is monopole. My head hurts im going now

 

don't be bamboozled by the "poles"

 

mono pole is just a direct radiating speaker…i.e. of the conventional types… as are your current book shelf speakers your using as rear surrounds. these speakers are most directional.

 

Bi-poles are simply speakers that fire in a couple of directions…e.g. the ADPs. it the tweeters we are talking of here, and in side speaker orientation the tweeters fire up and down the sides of the room. the sound is sufficiently diffused to not be in your face, creating a surround ambience and yet adequately directional still for surround steering and placement of effects.

 

Di-poles are a variation of bi-poles, but here instead one end of the dipole are out of phase with the other end. they tend to have to be placed so they work with an opposite phase end of a speaker to create a null zone. sufficiently diffusing the sound with the draw back these speakers are least directional. their history goes back to dolby prologic days. but some still use them if they want the surround ambience but without an in your face surround effects that can at times be too distracting or draw too much attention to them selves. 

 

sure you could use these monitor 1 surrounds in a rear location and they will be less directional than the mono poles you have. however given you have some pretty appropriate and adequate rear speakers already, I would simply leave them where they are, just hook them up to the rear speaker terminals they should be hooked upto. and then add the monitor 1 surrounds into your setup as side surrounds if possible as I indicated earlier. speakers such as these are literally built for this kind of setup and will add very well to fill in the side surround info you are craving. in mounting I would go either side of your main listening position and sitting them about 600 mm above ear height if possible. and should work an absolute treat

[Tony ray]

Thanks Al for the replys, I do have good spots either side of the main listening position for the surrounds so I can turn our system into 7.1

Birthday is close so throwing out hints to Mrs Ray for the monitor 1 surrounds.

 

So re reading my original confusing question I will keep the rear bookshelfs where they are as rears and add dedicated surrounds

to the side and redirect the surround sound from the rears to the sides in a 7.1 setup and the rears will keep the rear sound.

Edited July 21, 2014 by Tony ray

[Paul Spencer]

The only problem you might have is they may not be designed for near wall or on wall placement. Speakers designed to be placed out from boundaries will have extra boundary gain. Surround speakers are designed to allow for this.

[Silent Screamer]

The only problem you might have is they may not be designed for near wall or on wall placement. Speakers designed to be placed out from boundaries will have extra boundary gain. Surround speakers are designed to allow for this.

 

I was just about to say that in response to al's post...

 

mono pole is just a direct radiating speaker…i.e. of the conventional types… as are your current book shelf speakers your using as rear surrounds. these speakers are most directional.

 

OP said that they are rear ported and up against the wall, so they may not be working strictly as a monopole in this sense.

 

[Newman]

Forget the bidirectionals IMHO, they are a carry-over from the days of matrixed surround, before we had fully discrete surround channels. Put the back speakers at about 120-135 degrees. Definitely not at 90.

[betty boop]

Thanks Al for the replys, I do have good spots either side of the main listening position for the surrounds so I can turn our system into 7.1

Birthday is close so throwing out hints to Mrs Ray for the monitor 1 surrounds.

 

So re reading my original confusing question I will keep the rear bookshelfs where they are as rears and add dedicated surrounds

to the side and redirect the surround sound from the rears to the sides in a 7.1 setup and the rears will keep the rear sound.

 

great to hear you have a spot for the side surrounds, yes definitely go with 7.1 and the side surrounds suggested will work just a treat to give you side surround  sound info your craving, have visited many many home theatres with this arrangement and it works ! its pretty much how have my surrounds setup, sides and rears and come together to work an absolute treat

 

Untitled by alebonau, on Flickr

 

~

 

 

OP said that they are rear ported and up against the wall, so they may not be working strictly as a monopole in this sense.

 

I have used ported speakers close to walls before and in shelves. it impacts on their porting depending on how close you place them upto a wall, and just like any speaker you get boundary gain(less of an issue with ht speakers when you run them as small) but it doesnt turn a mono pole speaker into di-pole or bi-pole or anything. Tony's issue is he is sending his side surround info into what are rear speaker locations. no suprise then he is missing side surround info and instead he is getting surround sound coming from the back !  fortunately for him he is keen enough to buy some surrounds and able to also place them in ideal side surround location. which should give the side surround info he is wanting with the bonus of keeping his rear speakers in what would be ideal rear locations for a 7.1 speaker set. win win all around I say

[Silent Screamer]

What's the reasoning behind the high placement of all the rears al? is this to defuse the sound and make it less directional?

[Paul Spencer]

Surrounds placed lower down tend to localise too much - that is you don't get a good enveloping surround field but instead you hear sounds coming direct from the nearer speaker.

[Silent Screamer]

Surrounds placed lower down tend to localise too much - that is you don't get a good enveloping surround field but instead you hear sounds coming direct from the nearer speaker.

 

Ok thanks I thought it might have been something like that. Just out of curiosity if you cant place speakers directly behind (unlike in al's photo) can you place them behind and in the ceiling?

[Paul Spencer]

Talking about rear surrounds? If you have properly placed side surrounds and want to add rears but have no good place on the rear wall, yes you could still do that. It's not ideal but if your side surrounds are correctly placed you could gain some benefit. However, if talking about side surrounds in 5.1 I'd always aim for standard side surround placement. The ceiling sometimes is seen as an easy and cheap solution but I'd try to avoid it.

[betty boop]

What's the reasoning behind the high placement of all the rears al? is this to defuse the sound and make it less directional?

 

hi SS standard recommendation is minimum 600mm (or 2 ft) over head height.

 

Surrounds placed lower down tend to localise too much - that is you don't get a good enveloping surround field but instead you hear sounds coming direct from the nearer speaker.

 

thats right, can be quite distracting with surrounds for instance firing right in your ears if placed too low

 

Ok thanks I thought it might have been something like that. Just out of curiosity if you cant place speakers directly behind (unlike in al's photo) can you place them behind and in the ceiling?

 

they are used, if have no other choice, better than nothing ...however you get a very different sound where have them firing straight down, vs rear surrounds that fire forward. you can get some ceiling surrounds that allow you to align the tweeters so angled down but firing more forward ...which makes up a bit for the compromise. 

[Silent Screamer]

The reason I ask is because a friend of mine has a 5.1 system, and it would be nice to add some rear speakers to the mix. Only problem is his couch is placed up against kitchen serving counter making it impossible to put speakers in the traditional place. But it sounds like you are suggesting putting some on the kitchen roof and facing them forward towards the listening position.

 

Not sure if it would work in this case as the counter behind the couch is quiet high and wouldn't allow a very straight path to the ear, but then again you said you don't want them pointing directly at the ear anyway so it might just work.

[Guest Peter the Greek]

My experience is that direct radiators are better in larger rooms where you can get some good distance between the listening position and the the speaker - say 2m+

 

In smaller/narrower rooms, where you have compromise, I have found dipole surrounds to be better due to the localisation issues Paul mentioned. This is also what Dennis Erskine has spec'ed for my room (3.8m wide, ~1.5m from head to speaker as the crow flies) with the rear row, right up against the back wall (this is "overflow seating"), its really only a 2 seat room (the other 4 seats are just for guests etc)

 

 

Edited July 22, 2014 by Peter the Greek

[betty boop]

The reason I ask is because a friend of mine has a 5.1 system, and it would be nice to add some rear speakers to the mix. Only problem is his couch is placed up against kitchen serving counter making it impossible to put speakers in the traditional place. But it sounds like you are suggesting putting some on the kitchen roof and facing them forward towards the listening position.

 

Not sure if it would work in this case as the counter behind the couch is quiet high and wouldn't allow a very straight path to the ear, but then again you said you don't want them pointing directly at the ear anyway so it might just work.

 

yes but additionaly, while angled ceiling speakers are a good compromise eg the paradigms here with their 30 deg angle

 

http://www.paradigm.com/products-current/model=sig-15r-30-v3/page=overview

 

ceiling speakers arent the only solution. another option rather than in ceiling, is on ceiling. ie speakers that come with brackets and mount to the ceiling and can then be angled appropriately

[Silent Screamer]

ceiling speakers arent the only solution. another option rather than in ceiling, is on ceiling. ie speakers that come with brackets and mount to the ceiling and can then be angled appropriately

 

Yes that was what I meant... I was originally thinking in roof above the couch, but then was suggesting regular box type speakers mounted in the kitchen and facing forward.

 

If they are kept close to the roof they wont stand out too much.

[Tony ray]

So I have pulled the finger on a pair of paradigm monitor 1 surrounds and hopefully brag how good they sound once there setup properly.

[Silent Screamer]

So I have pulled the finger on a pair of paradigm monitor 1 surrounds and hopefully brag how good they sound once there setup properly.

 

Presume you are going to place them in LS and RS from al's diagram above?

 

Edit:

Hmmm maybe LB and RB... Forum experts?

 

Edited July 24, 2014 by Silent Screamer

[betty boop]

Presume you are going to place them in LS and RS from al's diagram above?

 

~

 

 

I do hope that is what is done with the new speakers,

Presume you are going to place them in LS and RS from al's diagram above?

 

Edit:

Hmmm maybe LB and RB... Forum experts?

 

 

nope his current rears would be better left in the rear location where they are, just hooked up to run as rears rather than as side surrounds as they currently are

[Tony ray]

Yes run to the side much the same as Als setup. I will attempt a picture for everyones approval.

[Tony ray]

I have installed the surrounds at 90 degree to listening position and recalibrated YPOO. I must say the improvement over 5.1 is big.

I have only watched 5 movies but the sound is every where, more than I expected. Very happy

[betty boop]

I have installed the surrounds at 90 degree to listening position and recalibrated YPOO. I must say the improvement over 5.1 is big.

I have only watched 5 movies but the sound is every where, more than I expected. Very happy

 

excellent tony, great to hear worked for you and happy with the end result !