A subwoofer (or two) for Harbeth M30.1

[Chazz]

So I've been the proud owner of the Harbeth M30.1 for the last few months.  Best speaker I've ever heard of for vocals and acoustics.  However, they are a bit shy in the bass department and I was thinking of adding a 'musical' sub-woofer which would help.  Has anyone had success in integrating a sub with their Harbeth?  Room size is 5 x 6m with ceilings of 3.3m.  Use will be 80% music and 20% HT.

 

I'm currently considering:

- Rythmic F12SE (~$1,390)

- SVS SB-2000 (~$1000)

- SVS-SB13 Ultra (~$2,300) 

- Rel R-218 (~$1,700)

 

Prior to the Harbeth's I had the Odyssey Audio Loreleis and had issues with the bass being boomy in my room.  I know that integration will be tricky but it will be easier to move the sub around and EQ them than the Loreleis I think.  I've been recommended to use splitters in the power amp to connect my tube pre (when listening to music) and yamaha receiver (when listening to HT).  Will the use of splitters degrade the music (I hear that they halve the signal and hence add more noise).

 

It's been also suggested that 2 x 12 inch subs maybe too much for my room.  What do you think?

 

My System is:

 

Squeezebox

NAD M51 DAC

Eastern Electric Tube Preamp

Odyssey Audio Extreme Mono Blocks

Harbeth M30.1

Yamaha V1400 (very old)

 

Would be interested in your thoughts

 

Many Thanks

Charles

 

 

[Juicester]

i don't think two subs would be too much (in fact, two subs is likely to sound less 'overloaded' then one poorly implemented sub by itself). I would consider some of the older models in these series as well, and velodyne/ jl audio should be on your radar too. I own a Rel B2 which I bought for close to 2kish and I've been very impressed with it.

[kunalraiker]

I managed to integrate a REL with the P3ESR's, i should say its not hard but you need a bit of tweaking especially with Bass tones, etc

REL is usually nice to integrate with Stereo. But the ones you're looking at are very dear, try finding a used one that way you can sell it if you don't like it

[Satanica]

Room size is 5 x 6m with ceilings of 3.3m.

 

And does this room lead onto any other room(s) cause that will have an impact.

 

It's been also suggested that 2 x 12 inch subs maybe too much for my room.  What do you think?

 

Think that's complete BS, it's called a subwoofer volume control.

[Malcolm]

No such thing as a sub off music or HT . It's about intergration with the mains and room .

Look at your Harbeth speaker specs work out how low end of the M30.1 and how high the sub needs to go . The best thing you could do is get someone to measure the response of your M30.1 in your room then go from there . Because any sub or subs that need to xover to high out of there range is going to sound like shite .

There's no fix rule on size or number of subs ,so there is one what the better half will let you have .

Cheers

[betty boop]

i don't think two subs would be too much (in fact, two subs is likely to sound less 'overloaded' then one poorly implemented sub by itself). I would consider some of the older models in these series as well, and velodyne/ jl audio should be on your radar too. I own a Rel B2 which I bought for close to 2kish and I've been very impressed with it.

 

yes the Rel would certainly help with integration

 

also again rather than temptation of jumping to two subs I would consider one really good sub and integrate really well. have a peep for something like the velodyne sms-1 at $350 second they they go for, the ideal thing for integration into room and system.

 

also what are these "splitter" you speak off ? RCA splitters ? not a great idea...additionally it doesn't sound like you really have an integrated 2ch and ht system. this in itself will present problems in use I would suggest. easier would be to swap out the pre for one with ht bypass

[Chazz]

The room does lead into other rooms through two doors, but it is faily self contained.

 

You're right that my system is not an integrated 2ch and ht system.  It's a 2 channel system with HT tacked on  .  Currently, I have the pre-outs of the Yamaha going to one of the the tube-preamp inputs when I'm using HT (as I don't have a HT pass-through).  Yes - it's pre on a pre, but for HT I'm not so much concerned about sound, and when I'm not using HT, I have pure dedicated 2 channel front end. 

 

The splitters are these:  http://www.svsound.com/subwoofers/subwoofer-accessories/Gold-RCA-Y-adapter.  The idea is to connect them to the inputs of my power amps and have the Yamaha pre-outs connected directly to them instead of through the tube pre-amp.  The only downside is that when I am playing music they will be 'in the chain'. 

 

I have been looking at some of the second hand Rel's, but for the price of a second hand Rel (~$1000 for a Strata 5) I can get a new SVS SB-2000.

 

Ideally, I would like to have two subs that have both a LFE in and a 2 channel connection (either RCA or high connection like the Rel).  This has made me lean towards the Rhytmic or the RELs.  The SVS' seem to be great value but don't seems to allow for separate connection for HT and Music. 

 

I have read that Rel is overpriced and measures badly, but at the same time many people have raved about it.  Rythmic also seems very popular in the US, but there's no way to audition it in Australia.

 

Maybe I should just sell the Harbeth's and get the new Super HL Plus to get the extra bass!!

[Peter Allen]

err no,

Two smaller ones are better than one bigger 'un.

 

Floyd Toole goes into it in excruciating detail -- take-home message: more even distribution in the room.

Placed half-way along adjacent walls.

[Juicester]

err no,

Two smaller ones are better than one bigger 'un.

 

 

you can't make blanket statements like that. two crappy subs will never sound better than one good one....      i agree with the 'THEORY' of your premise; but there are a lot of factors at play....

[Guest atilsley]

If may suggest something a little different.

You've said 80% is music listening....why then focus on a sub that is typically aligned to HT...?

I've just finished 2 bass boxes using 18 inch EV pro drivers...,why? To have fast and tight bass that specifically doesn't sound like HT...!

Check the quality of drivers such as Faital Pro 18's on Parts Express....$500 or so....add in dual 300 or 500 watt d-class dedicated plate amps..,a ply box of about 150 liters each...,and you will have KILLER bass.

If in Sydney, you're most welcome to visit to hear mine.

Check SNA, DIY thread for more info.

I'm running mindsp, and using 25-100hz range.

Andrew

[henry218]

If may suggest something a little different.

You've said 80% is music listening....why then focus on a sub that is typically aligned to HT...?

I've just finished 2 bass boxes using 18 inch EV pro drivers...,why? To have fast and tight bass that specifically doesn't sound like HT...!

Check the quality of drivers such as Faital Pro 18's on Parts Express....$500 or so....add in dual 300 or 500 watt d-class dedicated plate amps..,a ply box of about 150 liters each...,and you will have KILLER bass.

If in Sydney, you're most welcome to visit to hear mine.

Check SNA, DIY thread for more info.

I'm running mindsp, and using 25-100hz range.

Andrew

because most people dont want to have 160L bass bin in their living room

[betty boop]

because most people dont want to have 160L bass bin in their living room

 

I suppose could go "IB" and stick them out side the room…under the floor…or up in the ceiling

[Guest atilsley]

I recall listening to Avant Garde Duo's...and thinking, love the sound of the mids and highs...but the bass was like being in a home theatre...not tight and musical.

 

Gotta decide what you want.

[Gullintanni]

Not entering into the how many or where debate - but +1 for two REL's, that's what I have and LOVE them.

[henry218]

I recall listening to Avant Garde Duo's...and thinking, love the sound of the mids and highs...but the bass was like being in a home theatre...not tight and musical.

Gotta decide what you want.

i think AG realised this already and came up with different woofer/bass for their Zero

[bluedog]

I'm not sure what price the Velodyne DD10 is there but wow what a great leap forward my system has made since introducing the DD series subwoofer into my system. I started with a DD10 then moved up to the DD12 I use it in a dedicated 2channel system and for my HT, the thing that I Love about the DD series is not there huge power but there room correction software. I have Vaf signature i93,s and as most will know they have huge base capacity and can reach right down to 18hz the same as the dd12. So when I put the sub in it measured the room and my 40hz was doubling and it sounded bad. I was board one day and took the leads from the pre to the dd12 then from the dd12 to the power amp. I then ran the room eq and to honest it was the best I have EVER herd in my room absolutey stunning it didn't only fix the bass but aloud all the other frequency's to shine.

One of my biggest concerns was that the HT would suffer but omg no way that is as simple as the pre-sets on the sub. I run the DD12 at 5 out of 100 for music 10 for rock (if I want a bit more bass in older albums) and 15 for movies 20 for Action/ adventure and if im being silly custom is set at 30 lol. 

The bass is the tightest I have heard highly recommended and before the purest go on about you should correct the room first well this is a lot cheaper and  to my ears I cant fault what it did for me, I have since had a few audiophile friends over who have heard my system and they are stunned at the transformation.

[davewantsmoore]

err no,

Two smaller ones are better than one bigger 'un.

 

Only if they are being operated at a level where their distortion is not significant..... and multiple subwoofers are only helpful if they can be placed in the right placed (of course).

[Sub Sonic]

Hmm... I'm currently running two big ones, have a third in the room but not yet hooked up, and working on a fourth!  The trick will be to sneak the last one into the lounge without my wife noticing :blink:

 

SS

 

Edit: If only I didn't like pipe organ music...

Edited July 8, 2014 by Sub Sonic

[Paul Spencer]

Chazz/Charles,

 

The strategy for good sound overall doesn't work for bass. With speakers and audio equipment it's usually about an audition and if that's not possible, then recommendations and a punt, with a little common sense thrown in. With bass you have to throw all that out the window. (Not so much the common sense part!) Sub auditions are almost useless. You are hearing the sub and integration more than the room.

 

Rythmik and SVS are safe choices - I've measured and heard both and they are solid performers. Value champs. JL Fathom brought the price down of high performance, amongst more traditional brands like Velodyne that tended to make you pay a much higher price for the good stuff.

 

You mentioned a problem with bass boom in the past with different speakers. It's most likely that they simply had enough extension in the bass that you notice the problem. Hence, bringing a sub into the system will make you aware of that problem again. A sub will tend to reveal all the bass problems that many speakers won't reveal due to less bass. The good news is that a sub tends to give you more options to also fix those problems and manage them better. In one recent job I showed a client how they could go from +/- 20 dB in the bass range to +/- 1.5 dB with just one sub in the right place and some EQ.

 

Are 2 x 12" subs right for your room? It really depends on how much bass you like for a start. In my experience, most people vary by as much as 20 dB in the bass balance they prefer. Every 6 dB increase requires you to DOUBLE the amount of subs, hence I really can't answer that question. Except to say that "too much" is not a real problem, just like cars that can drive faster than 100kph aren't a problem. For some, a pair of 12" subs is not nearly enough but for many it would be just right for a room that size. Others would consider it an indulgence.

 

 

err no,

Two smaller ones are better than one bigger 'un.

 

Floyd Toole goes into it in excruciating detail -- take-home message: more even distribution in the room.

Placed half-way along adjacent walls.

 

That Harman paper provides insight and presents a good case for multiple subs. I used that configuration at the hifi show when I had four subs and not enough time to measure all the options. What it shows is that this configuration provides the least variation from seat to seat when you need to optimise an area and you have a rectangular room.

 

However, what I find in my consulting work (room analysis) is that most enthusiasts focus on one particular seat or just a couple that they want to sound good, not so much a couple of rows with many seats. In that situation and in many typical rooms, often one or two subs will exhaust the potential for improvement. Most people listen in rooms that have limited spots for a sub and often after testing all the best positions, no real benefit is gained from adding more. This happens more often than people would expect after reading a paper like that.

 

Once you consider the specific room, the practical constraints regarding where subs can go as well as the listening position/s and the measurements of the different options, things often appear very different.

 

A key transition point is often where one goes beyond a single seating row. Then you tend to get a big variation from row to row due to the relationship between the front and back walls. Multi subs become more important at that point.

[Chazz]

Thanks Paul

 

While I was scouting around for a sub, I saw a secondhad Rythmik 12SE on ebay and jumped on it.  It is now sitting in a corner of my music room, and hooked up to my preamp via long RCA cables and also the HT Receiver separately via LFE. 

 

I haven't yet 'dialled it' in yet, but plan to do so when I get more time.  I've read your blogs on managing bass, but I must say I was lost when it started talking about time domains and had all those graphs!!   I might touch base with you in the future to get a remote service since I am based in Sydney.  

 

Now one question I have though is before I do any EQ and measurement, should I:

(i) install some bass traps?  I am looking at installing some Vicoustics Super Bass Extremes - are they any good?

(ii) I am also hoping to install a new projector, new hifi rack and move some furniture around (though not the listening seat), so presume I will need to do that before I do any EQ.

[Paul Spencer]

Hi Chazz,

 

It's generally better to have a room analysis before choosing bass traps, especially one like that with a particular tuning. Moving other furniture around the room isn't likely to have a significant impact on EQ that would be applied to a subwoofer. Later in the year, around the time of the Bathurst race, I'm planning to go to the Bathurst GTG and line up some NSW consulting work.

 

http://www.stereo.net.au/forums/index.php?/topic/66705-bathurst-2014-gtg/

[peacewise]

I've noticed that my sub sounds better if I am standing up in the room, doesn't really matter where, as long as I'm standing.  Sit down in the "hot spot" and the sub's output diminishes audibly.

 

oh well.