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Isolating amplifiers


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As you often say to me Zaph, utter nonsense. 

 

I've attempted to unpack ZBs comment of  "unless it is badly designed" ...   I don't see how this logic is utter nonsense .... unless you are subjecting the amplifier to significantly more vibration than the designer expected.

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Well heres a thought. I have a rack that has good isolation & decoupling, I also use separate isolation under every component. I have heard an improvement with the said same under amps worth $2k & amps worth 10-20 times that much. My guess is the utter nonsense response is from someone that has heard differently, for the record, I have heard the benefits, then again, maybe Gryphon, MOON, ARC, SRA etc etc don't know jack.

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I would say that the most common placement for equipment, regardless of being valve or ss, is right between the speakers. Every single component inside the chassis, and including the chassis, is susceptible to vibration. I've experienced an improvement using resonance control devices under a $21k solid state dac which I would argue is well designed. 

 

I would however agree that valve based gear is more sensitive to vibration than solid state. 

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Hi, just wondering why you would use an isolation platform for an amp? What benefits are being gained?

Thanks.

 

As you can see, Langleyz, there are opposing views about this ... so you probably have to do the experiment, to make your mind up.  ;)

 

All I can say is ... at one stage I had my active Maggies spiked to the (concrete) slab, with the 25kg case which contains the 3 ss amp modules driving the Maggies, plus the active XO (and 4 PSes), resting on the slab - right behind each Maggie panel.

 

I then decided to put squash balls under each corner of both amp cases, to isolate them from the slab.  I was surprised to find the resulting sound was much cleaner - as did other people who knew my system and who subsequently came over to listen.

 

The only thing I can think of that would explain this difference is ... there were vibrations coming up from the slab and entering the amp/XO case - which were degrading the sound.  Putting air suspension between the amp case and the slab meant that these vibrations were no longer able to enter the amp/XO case.

 

So I'm convinced about the benefits of using an isolation platform under an amp - and source components as well.

 

 

Regards,

 

Andy

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As you can see, Langleyz, there are opposing views about this ... so you probably have to do the experiment, to make your mind up. ;)

All I can say is ... at one stage I had my active Maggies spiked to the (concrete) slab, with the 25kg case which contains the 3 ss amp modules driving the Maggies, plus the active XO (and 4 PSes), resting on the slab - right behind each Maggie panel.

I then decided to put squash balls under each corner of both amp cases, to isolate them from the slab. I was surprised to find the resulting sound was much cleaner - as did other people who knew my system and who subsequently came over to listen.

The only thing I can think of that would explain this difference is ... there were vibrations coming up from the slab and entering the amp/XO case - which were degrading the sound. Putting air suspension between the amp case and the slab meant that these vibrations were no longer able to enter the amp/XO case.

So I'm convinced about the benefits of using an isolation platform under an amp - and source components as well.

Regards,

Andy

This seems to be an example where some isolation is needed although I would have just moved the amplifiers further away.

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None, unless the amplifier is badly designed, or is a valve amp. Some valve amps may exhibit some microphonic effects, which may benefit from isolation from the speakers. SS amps should require no such assistance.

 

I think your statement is a bit of an over-generalization Zaph. Taking the example of my Vitus SIA-025 which is a $30k integrated amp, notwithstanding the potted, floating transformer and anti-resonant chassis, stuffing so much gear into a modest sized chassis does create some resonance. Placing the amp on a solid rack with Stillpoints Ultra 5's and an Ultra LPI on top made a big difference which created a blacker background, improved bass & brought the sound stage into clearer focus.

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Hi, just wondering why you would use an isolation platform for an amp? What benefits are being gained?

Thanks.

 

 

Hi Langleyz, the only things in audio that need Isolating in Audio are the mechanical devices.

 

Such as turntables, cd transports anything that has a continuous moving part in it that aids in producing the sound.

 

Also tube amps and preamps as well need to be isolated, because they all are microphonic to some degree.

All you need to do to hear that is to flick a tube with your finger nail while all is on, and at normal volume level, and you will hear a bonk coming out of the speakers. and in bad microphonic cases, much more than a bonk.

 

I used the word Isolate not couple, the last thing you want to do is to couple the above items to a wooden floor, (cement is ok but wooden is a big no)

For wooden floors your better off isolating by floating the above items, I use a simple scooter inner tube half inflated underneath the piece that needs it.

 

Remember nothing can stop air born vibration (save for putting your equipment in another room) and as Zaph says solid state equipment (poweramps, dacs, preamps etc) should not need anything unless it has been poorly made like some diy stuff I've seen, and that's more a safety issue than anything else.

 

 

Cheers George

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But many people have experienced positive results isolating solid state equipment which have not been poorly made, so it looks like you're going to need to try it for yourself to answer your question! 

 

To quote your quote of Zaph's quote.  "utter nonsense" 

 

I have tried it, We had a someone beat gently the tops S/S dac and a S/S poweramps (which were in another room on a hi-rez system) with their fist, while a group of us listened. Not one of us could detect when he was beating them or when he was not.

 

Yes on tube equipment as I have outlined above yes you will detect it, and CD transports will error correct or jump, TT's naturally they will just jump. For these mechanical devices, they need to be floating/decoupled if on a wooden floor in the same room, not coupled to the stand.

But if on a cement floor then yes couple to the stand if you wish.  To repete, nothing will stop airborn (bass) vibrations getting to these.

 

To the OP: Scooter inner tubes are better than squash balls to isolate with as they are thinner, more complient and can be slighty inflated.

 

Cheers George   

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I'm no expect, but I understand that micro-vibrations which are small and perpetual would act in a very different way the thud of pounding on SS gear. I can tap on the plinth of my turntable and hear no audible noises through my speakers (or whilst music is playing), but I'm sure you'll agree that isolation of a turntable is effective. 

 

Again I'm not in a position of expert technical knowledge to debate this topic in depth, but like many topics that won't ever be resolved on this forum or otherwise, I've experienced what I've experienced and whether I can explain it or not, I believe it's significant. It, being the result from treating even solid state gear (that is well built) with isolation techniques/devices. 

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I'm no expect, but I understand that micro-vibrations which are small and perpetual would act in a very different way the thud of pounding on SS gear.

 

Again I'm not in a position of expert technical knowledge to debate this topic in depth,

 

Uh!, have you ever felt the "micro vibrations" that a power transformer makes inside the S/S preamp and/or poweramps??

Cheers George

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*raises eyebrows*

 

If vibration control helps an amplifier which costs $40,000 ...  but it is not included in the box ...   then aren't you being ripped off ?!

 Maybe, but I'd lay odds that if I got to spruke 40k on each of my amps, I'd be hearing a shitload more than on yours, isolated or not, but which I will add will still be isolated ;)

 

  Seriously though, wouldn't the question be does it effect both prices, that being that the need for isolation is not price specific. It's energy!

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I'd lay odds that if I got to spruke 40k on each of my amps, I'd be hearing a shitload more than on yours

 

I honestly don't think that's necessarily true.

 

This is like saying that a $200,000 car has better performance than a $50,000 one.     You would though, make the assumption that the 50k one wasn't going to be as shiny   ;)

 

 

 

wouldn't the question be does it effect both prices, that being that the need for isolation is not price specific. It's energy!

 

 

Of course.  It is possible for vibration to be an issue in an amplifier of any price ....  vibrations aren't fixed by price .... they are fixed by engineering.

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I honestly don't think that's necessarily true.

 

This is like saying that a $200,000 car has better performance than a $50,000 one.     You would though, make the assumption that the 50k one wasn't going to be as shiny   ;)

 

 

 

 

 

Of course.  It is possible for vibration to be an issue in an amplifier of any price ....  vibrations aren't fixed by price .... they are fixed by engineering.

 

 

 

  No that is you taking things out of context of the price of..., your amps...., 40k...., what I'd do with it & the outcome. Sound-systems in cars suck arrrrse(pirate accent here please) I'm pretty sure this discussion is because of engineers, not what they have fixed. But I digress, you have yours, I have mine,(opinion) we all use it & most are happy with how theirs performs, thats the happy button.I'm happy with what I have & how it is isolated from mechanical, electrical & acoustical energy. Plain & simple I think isolation is worth looking into.

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The statement that it takes "engineering to fix problems caused by vibration" is not an "opinion".

 

 

Plain & simple I think isolation is worth looking into.

 

Well of course.   If vibration control helps an amplifier, then it is a desirable thing.     I don't think that's in dispute by anyone.

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*raises eyebrows*

 

If vibration control helps an amplifier which costs $40,000 ...  but it is not included in the box ...   then aren't you being ripped off ?!

you know dave, they need to design the isolation platform for extra, so next model up for $60k will include isolation... then wait, if you pay another $9,999 u will get NASA approved footings with quantum physics levelling device with achromatic structured formed chassis emitter :P

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