Possible distortion ?

[Leinster Lad]

Hi all,

Received Carole King Tapestry, ( Mobile Fidelity 180gr ) last week.

Spun it up and I think that I noticed some kind of distortion or harshness on some of the vocals.

This seemed to be on loud, high frequency vocals.

 

I have not heard this before on my system.

 

Unfortunately I did not have a lot of time to really check it out, but I did check my VTA and tracking force, which were all good.

 

Tried another couple of albums and they sounded normal.

 

Will not be able to have a really ggod listen until next weekend though.

 

Any advice on what to look out for ??

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

First off:

 

Don't play any more LPs until you are certain there are no problems. The distortion you hear is causing irreversible damage to your LPs.

 

Possible faults:

 

* Poor alignment (though you tell us it is not). Inadequate tracking pressure is usually the fault here.

* Chipped stylus.

* Faulty arm bearings.

* Inadequate tracking performance from the arm/cartridge system.

 

Tricky to advise one what to do. Play the LP on a known good system. Examine the stylus under a microscope.

 

I presume the LP was NOS?
 

[eman]

He said his other records sound OK.

 

Her vocals always sound harsh on the high sustains to me.

[Leinster Lad]

LP was brand new.

Tracking force is 1.75 grams ( set with digital gauge )

Arm tube is parallel to LP

Ortofon 2M Blue, probably less than 50 hrs on it.  ( see sig for current setup ) and aligned to Baerwald standard as best as I am able.

 

Other LPs sound fine.

 

What I am really wondering is could it be a "faulty" pressing, or is it more likely to be just how her voice is recorded ?

( i do not have Tapestry on CD to compare )

[ophool]

It is far from impossible that this is on the recording, however I note the following :

Ortofon recommend 1.8 gm VTF from a range of 1.6 -> 2.0 gm, many will use the highest VTF when a cartridge is relatively new and lower it after perhaps 100 hrs.

The higher VTF should not cause any detriment to your records, your ears will tell you if it causes detriment to the reproduction of the sound.

[eman]

Try finding a digital copy online to sample.

They sound essentially the same to me.

Can't comment on what you're hearing exactly of course.

[LogicprObe]

I seem to remember a bit of mic preamp overload on that album, although I haven't played the vinyl for years.

I'll have a listen to the CD later.

 

For a blatant instant of what I'm talking about, he really overloads the vocal mic on this track at 2.02 and 3.32.

 

[Leinster Lad]

It is far from impossible that this is on the recording, however I note the following :

Ortofon recommend 1.8 gm VTF from a range of 1.6 -> 2.0 gm, many will use the highest VTF when a cartridge is relatively new and lower it after perhaps 100 hrs.

The higher VTF should not cause any detriment to your records, your ears will tell you if it causes detriment to the reproduction of the sound.

 

I was not aware of that.

I will set the VTF to 2 grams ( when I get home ) , send the kids outside to play with the dog, and try and have a decent listen to try and figure out what the harshness is.

I am almost certain that I did not hear it on all tracks, which could be pointing to the original recording.

 

IIRC, Janis Joplin gets a bit harsh on the high sustains as well. Might be just the vocal style captured on eary 70's recording gear ?

[LogicprObe]

I was not aware of that.

I will set the VTF to 2 grams ( when I get home ) , send the kids outside to play with the dog, and try and have a decent listen to try and figure out what the harshness is.

I am almost certain that I did not hear it on all tracks, which could be pointing to the original recording.

 

IIRC, Janis Joplin gets a bit harsh on the high sustains as well. Might be just the vocal style captured on eary 70's recording gear ?

 

If it was a great take and the preamp or compressor/limiter didn't overload too much............that was it!

Studio time and tape was expensive!

[ophool]

I'm no studio guru but I can think of a good few albums recorded much later than the 70's where I hear what I take to be mic overload.

Spent a lot of time wondering if it is my gear and tweaking to try and get rid of it, some has been reduced on occasion, but a lot of it is on the same tracks no matter what I play them on.

Case in point, Last train to Clarkesville on Cassandra Wilsons New Moon Daughter, only had the CD for reference for years and that one track has some sort of high metallic edge to me.  I just obtained this on vinyl and same thing on the same track, but again on none of the others, rules out my DACs and CD players.

[eman]

While we're on the subject I just heard the Pentangle Basket of Light for the first time and I'm hearing the same sort of distortion of sustained high female vocals on that.  Digital and on record.  Haven't run it on the second system to compare yet.

anyone got comments on that one specifically ?

[LogicprObe]

Haven't got it, so I can't say.

[David.M]

Just wondering if you have/are able to verify the accuracy of your scales?  At one stage I was using a set of digital scales (similar to these  http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/like/310761089388?limghlpsr=true&hlpv=2&ops=true&viphx=1&hlpht=true&lpid=107  ) & was having some distortion issues before I discovered my scales were reading .2g overweight (so a reading 1.75g was actually 1.55g & of course different carts have different sensitivity to VTF variations).  I'm far from a vinyl expert so that's about all I can contribute on the technical side.

There are also some on the Hoffman Forum who say there is distortion (think they say microphone overload or the like) in Kings vocals on the Tapestry album but I don't hear it on either the stereo SACD or Org 45rpm (very recently picked up the MFSL LP but haven't really listened to it yet).  Can you better describe what you're hearing on Tapestry?

[Leinster Lad]

Just wondering if you have/are able to verify the accuracy of your scales?  At one stage I was using a set of digital scales (similar to these  http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/like/310761089388?limghlpsr=true&hlpv=2&ops=true&viphx=1&hlpht=true&lpid=107  ) & was having some distortion issues before I discovered my scales were reading .2g overweight (so a reading 1.75g was actually 1.55g & of course different carts have different sensitivity to VTF variations).  I'm far from a vinyl expert so that's about all I can contribute on the technical side.

There are also some on the Hoffman Forum who say there is distortion (think they say microphone overload or the like) in Kings vocals on the Tapestry album but I don't hear it on either the stereo SACD or Org 45rpm (very recently picked up the MFSL LP but haven't really listened to it yet).  Can you better describe what you're hearing on Tapestry?

 

 

Thanks David M,

I did calibrate the scales with the included calibration weight, so AFAIK, they should be pretty spot on. ( Scales purchased from Decibel HiFi ) so not your cheap chinese knock off ones.

I do have another set of digital scales, so can cross reference with those as well.

 

Mike overload is what it sounds like to me, not full blown, but just at the point of starting to overload.

 

I am up at work ATM so will not be able to have a decent listen till the weekend.

 

First things that I'll do will be to;

 

Calibrate the scales ( again ) and adjust the VTF to 2.0 grams

Recheck the VTA ( again )

Recheck the cart is setup as per Baerwald standard ( again )

 

Play some old favorites and see how the rig is sounding. ( i'm sure it will sound sweet  )

 

Put Carole King on and have a good listen ( maybe get my daughter to listen as well, i think her ears are better than mine )

Take notes of what tracks and what position on those tracks sound harsh ( if that is still apparent )

 

Report back.

[eman]

I'm pretty confident you'll find it's on the original master tape.  It's spoils that album for me.

 

Like you , I have my rig set up to sound sweet with known good recordings so I'm fairly confident of distortion being built in when I hear it.  Of cousre, it's hard to know if it's just that individual record pressing.  That's where I look for a digital version to compare.

 

David.M says there is comment about Mic overload on Hoffman and there's a lot of 'particular' people over there with a lot of useful comments.

 

Played my Pentangle LP on the second rig and that seals it for that one too.  I hate that distortion. 

 

I guess they figured most pop/rock listeners at the time weren't listening as closely as we do to those albums now.  Current recordings commonly have different problems of course.

[Newman]

The CD is so cheap you could grab one and check the relevant vocal sections.

[David.M]

For what it's worth, just had a listen to my MFSL LP & I agree LL that there are occasional hints of harshness with the loud higher register vocals.  I don't hear any break-up or what I would define as distortion, more like an unpleasant edge we sometimes associate with digital.  I compared several tracks on the MFSL (Way Over Yonder, You've Got a Friend, Where You Lead, Will You Love Me Tomorrow) with the Bernie Grundman mastered Org 45rpm & imo the Org is nicer listen, more body to the vocals and the harshness of the MFSL is absent.  With the Org you can still sense there is almost overload but there isn't the ear discomfort that comes from the MFSL.  In general I also prefer the Org's better clarity, eg the Taylor/Mitchell backing vocals on Love Me Tomorrow are clear & easy to follow whereas they just seem lost in the background on the MFSL.

Hope this is of some help.

[Leinster Lad]

Thanks heaps David.M for taking the time to have a critical listen to the MFSL version of Tapestry.

Your analysis describes my thoughts of what I perceive to be hearing perfectly.

As I said before, it probably is "just how it is"...

I will look at getting the Bernie Grundman mastered Org 45rpm as I really like the album and Caroles voice.

Just a shame the MFSL version appears to be a little harsh at times.

 

This new vinyl hobbie sure is fun, challenging, expensive, frustrating and pure pleasure, all rolled into one 

 

Anyway, thanks again for everyones input, i am learning heaps

 

regards

David

[LogicprObe]

I've been looking for my CD of Tapestry as it's not ripped to my computer for some reason!

(I suspect the Missus has taken it off my desk before I had a chance to rip it)