Vinyl rips - as good as the real thing??

[burningpanda]

I've been listening to a FLAC 24bit vinyl rip of the 1987 INXS LP 'Kick' and was surprised at how much better it sounded than the god-awful travesty that is the 2011 CD remaster of this album. Admittedly the source turntable was 3k+ but I suspect the rip sounds better than the original 1987 CD too.

    My RP3 is getting a bit long in the tooth so my own comparison of LP to CD is moot.

    Anyone have any experience with making digital copies of vinyl and how do they compare to the real thing - does a digital copy retain the qualities of the original LP played on a well setup turntable? (assumes preamp etc is similar quality). Is what I'm hearing comparable to having the same analogue rig in front of me or is the very act of turning all that analogue goodness into 1's and 0's destroying something?

[sir sanders zingmore]

It's probably better than the original.

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

Once music has been digitised, nothing can help it sound better.

[CryptiK]

I've got a Flac rip if both a cd and vinyl of the same album. The vinyl has a softer sound with a rolled off top end however this is probably a function of the ripping software and hardware used. The crackles from Vinyl really bug me I can't handle it.

[betty boop]

The vinyl rip will only be a mere "sample" of the original vinyl version. It can never be "better"

[burningpanda]

I note some online discussion re different downloadable versions of Beck's Morning Phase. The "[EQ The Vinyl Exp]" mp3 that's available as a download when you buy the vinyl has greater dynamic range and apparently sounds than mp3 downloads of the same album from iTunes and Amazon.

  "...overall this version is a much more enjoyable listen. This version of the album features some surface noise similar to that heard during vinyl playback". It's unknown if this is an analog to digital conversion from vinyl to MP3 or if this surface noise was added as part of the "EQ The Vinyl Exp".

[hired goon]

I've ripped some of me LPs to 24/96 files and can't hear much of a difference between the original and the copy, on my crappy system.

--Geoff

[davewantsmoore]

Making a digital capture of a LP is not always easy to do well..... but on a purely technical level we certainly have ADCs of high enough quality to capture the output without loss.

 

Of course, at playback you are imposing the 'sound of your digital playback system' over the top.

 

 

I have listened to some digital captures of vinyl where the source LP was from a significantly different mastering of the work .... and the differences certainly come through, just like it was being heard on a reasonable turntable.

 

 

The vinyl rip will only be a mere "sample" of the original vinyl version. It can never be "better"

 

Indeed.... but it can be "the same"  (it can be sampled 'perfectly')  ....   Of course, you have sampled the entire vinyl system you used, not just the record .....   and what happens at subsequent playback on your digital system, adds more distortion  (of a potentially worse type).

Edited March 6, 2014 by davewantsmoore

[gamve]

......... 

Edited March 5, 2014 by gamve

[sir sanders zingmore]

The reason I say it can sound better is that I have found, in my imperfect system where my tt is not isolated to the billionth degree, that you can do the rip with the volume at zero. But when you play a record, there are vibrations that feed back into the system and degrade the sound.

You don't get these when playing the rip

[Newman]

Well said Sir Z. Although maybe you should listen to LP with headphones....  

 

To the OP: There are many ways to screw up the rip, so maybe browse one or two online tutorials to make sure you do it well. 16/48 is more than enough to capture the goodies. Properly done, there should be no 'missing magic'.

[emesbee]

I have ripped a few of my vinyl LPs (Rega Planar 3 -> CA 640p phono stage -> Xitel Inport deluxe -> PC).

 

Generally I have been quite happy with the results, although the sound will always be coloured to some degree by the playback equipment. I do run the rips though a pop/scratch removal tool (I hate surface noise), but not too aggressively. My aim is just to reduce the audible impact of the worst of it.

 

To my ears, on playback the ripped version sounds comparable to the vinyl version. In a few cases, though, the ripped copy sounds superior to the official CD release of the same music.

 

One glaring example is John Kongos "He's Gonna Step On You Again". I've had the 45rpm single of this since my school days, but recently picked it up on a 'best of' CD compilation. The 45rpm has good dynamics and sounds great, but unfortunately the CD release sounds flat as a tack. Yes, the dreaded loudness wars again. The CD remaster has been over compressed to hell, and all the life has been squashed out of it. So, I ripped it from the single, and that sounds pretty good, noticeably superior to the CD compilation.

Edited March 6, 2014 by emesbee

[Satanica]

Once music has been digitised, nothing can help it sound better.

 

You'd better throw away all of your vinyl that's come from a digital mastered source then hey?

[audiomuze (R.I.P)]

First off, any comparison of this nature is inherently flawed because 1) the mastering of the LP and the CD are almost certain to be different, so you're comparing two different things and 2) you're going through ADC and then DAC for creation and playback of the needledrop.

Having said that, needledrops can and do sound very good if made using suitable equipment, and if a CD has been compressed to hell I will generally seek a needledrop because vinyl cannot sustain the same level of compression.

The cherry on top for me though was the outcome of a vinyl vs digital shootout at my place utilizing a LP12 and PS Audio Digilink III. A self-proclaimed vinyl junkie (and decrier of anything digital) with Naim kit, a Linn LP12 TT with all the modcons and only audiophile pressings in his collection (incl the 45rpm of Rumours) sat in the listening chair at my place tapping away furiously (you know the Linn jig, right) convinced he was listening to the vinyl whilst he was in fact listening to a 24/96 needledrop of the 45rpm (every time we played something both the digital and TT systems were playing and we switched sources on the preamp). Needles (sic) to say, there's been little appetite for a repeat of the exercise amongst the vinyl fraternity.

Edited March 6, 2014 by audiomuze

[davewantsmoore]

First off, any comparison of this nature is inherently flawed because 1) the mastering of the LP and the CD are almost certain to be different, so you're comparing two different things and 2) you're going through ADC and then DAC for creation and playback of the needledrop.

 

IME with vinyl captures I haven't found that these things are always audible  (meaning I can't tell the difference between the CD and the vinyl capture)

 

... although as I don't make them myself, I don't have the original vinyl system .... and I don't a vinyl player in my own system full-time either.

[hired goon]

^^^ I have often thought about doing such an experiment: show the LP spinning, but play back the needle drop instead, and wonder if anyone would notice. Well done :-)

--Geoff

[evil c]

Have had copied a few vinyl albums and while probably better than CD, it doesn't equal my original T/T quality.

I have been very impressed by some vinyl rips however, seemingly conveying more of an analog sound than comparable (if that's possible) retail CD's.

[ophool]

Properly done, there should be no 'missing magic'.

 

Good to have it confirmed that I must be screwing something up, because that is exactly the problem I have had.

[David.M]

^^^ I have often thought about doing such an experiment: show the LP spinning, but play back the needle drop instead, and wonder if anyone would notice. Well done :-)

--Geoff

Unless they were intimately familiar with your system, that recording (& specific mastering) being played on your system, I would say quite probably not.  All of us rational people concede that digital done right can sound outstanding.  Because a 'vinyl junkie' was (unknowingly) enjoying a needle drop doesn't mean that the need drop was equal to, better or worse than what would have been heard if the source LP had been played back.   

[audiomuze (R.I.P)]

I have been very impressed by some vinyl rips however, seemingly conveying more of an analog sound than comparable (if that's possible) retail CD's.

I expect it's entirely plausible given the needledrop perfectly recreates the vinyl playback's top-end rolloff to which you're no doubt accustomed.

[audiomuze (R.I.P)]

Unless they were intimately familiar with your system, that recording (& specific mastering) being played on your system, I would say quite probably not.  All of us rational people concede that digital done right can sound outstanding.  Because a 'vinyl junkie' was (unknowingly) enjoying a needle drop doesn't mean that the need drop was equal to, better or worse than what would have been heard if the source LP had been played back.   

On the contrary, both were played back and during playback he mistakenly locked onto the needledrop as being the real thing.  It was hilarious to see the Linn jig come to an abrupt halt when he heard the source switch and believed we'd switched to the needledrop, whilst we'd in fact switched from the needledrop to the LP.  He doesn't talk to many of us these days   

[davewantsmoore]

^^^ I have often thought about doing such an experiment: show the LP spinning, but play back the needle drop instead, and wonder if anyone would notice. Well done :-)

 

I can queue them both up (vinyl capture and CD) and instant switch with a button between them (level matched).

 

Mostly you can tell (or think you can) that there is some type of difference, but not always which is which.    Of course the noise floor can sometimes give it away....  on some albums, the vast differences in the mastering give it away quickly.

[audiomuze (R.I.P)]

I can queue them both up (vinyl capture and CD) and instant switch with a button between them (level matched).

That's basically what we did. I'd love to be able to do this with a vinyl pressing and CD made from the same master and played back via a neutral phonostage and DAC.  I suspect the only difference will be the occasional pop and click.

Edited March 6, 2014 by audiomuze

[Keith Anderson]

If done correctly and with good equipment the vinyl rips are extremely good, I prefer them to CD as they do definitely have a different sound. Probably the compression issue and as said the toped rolloff. They do sound very very good. 

 

I use a TC Electronic Impact Twin to record my LP's to my MacBook.  I use the Impact Twin for music recording, my bass and guitars so easy to use for LP recording. But at over $600 wouldn't expect to many to go out and buy one.

 

Heres a good article of recording using one

 

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/503-guide-converting-analog-vinyl-digital-files-using-macintosh/

 

Oh and you definitely can here a difference on sample rate so 16/44 is useless, I record at the full hi-res

[Lloyd]

I may be wrong, but I read somewhere that each generation loses something like 6dB of something, signal to noise?  An engineering thing.  It may be a myth.

 

Sorry, maybe off topic.

Edited March 7, 2014 by Lloyd