Advice on floorstanders vs. standmounts with sub?

[Topman_Chief]

Looking for some advice on new speakers please. I thought I had it all figured out until I read an article on Darko's site by Srajan Ebaen  http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2014/02/kih-6-loading-the-room/%C2'>

 

I've been saving up for some floorstanding speakers at around $3K, probably second hand. They will go in a surround system, but my real focus for sound quality is for two channel, not surround. I currently don't have a sub but am also looking to add one of those, probably about $1K, e.g. SVS SB2000. My room is about 7m x 5m x 2.7m (22x16x9 feet), with lots of hard surfaces and few opportunities for treatments. I have a young family, so moderate listening levels will be the reality 95% of the time. I listen to a wide range of music, but folk, rock, blues would be a good ball park. 

 

Using RRPs, one example might be Kef R500 ($3,700) vs. Kef R300 ($2,600) + SVS SB2000 ($1,000). 

 

So will I be more likely to get better sound from floorstanders or standmounts plus sub? Pros and cons of each set-up?

 

Thanks

Corey

 

 

[henry218]

get the R300 plus SUBS , as you dont gain much by the additional puny 5" midwoofer doing BASS, so better get real woofer for the BASS , get 2 if you can.

[davewantsmoore]

At bass frequencies there are some prime considerations.

 

Sensitivity.   You need large cones and/or many cones.  *cough*

Placement.   Bass sources need to be placed at locations which is almost never the same places as normal speaker for best response  (best being most even response over the room... so EQ effects the overall response more predictably)

 

 

This means subwoofers are good for everyone  (even people with floor standers).

The reality of home audio, can mean that listening levels and placement restrictions mean that subwoofers are difficult....  so it depends on your situation, and the specific speakers.

 

 

I don't think I helped.   I guess I am trying to say it's hard to compare small+sub to floorstander in a generalised way.

[henry218]

 

 

 

I don't think I helped.   I guess I am trying to say it's hard to compare small+sub to floorstander in a generalised way.

he did put a very specific example from KEF, which both are 3ways , hence.. THE SUB

[Topman_Chief]

Both helpful - thanks Dave and Henry. 

 

Although the KEF example is relevant, I was probably going to get a sub as well as floorstanders, so one motive was to step up in quality on the standmounts vs. floorstanders - just didn't want to cloud the question with that scenario. 

 

Does anyone know if John Darko runs a sub with his various standmounts? He always seems to prefer standmounts, despite his fancy for electronic music which most people chase bass quantity for, not just quality. 

[betty boop]

topman, the caveat in all this is ...do you just get a better stand mount or floorstander in the first place

 

... oh and you can still always add the sub later

 

reason I say is thats the step I took with bedroom setup. was very lucky to pick up some awesome standmounts on run out. lived and enjoyed that for a few years and then just happened an awesome sub turned up again heavily reduced. extremely happy with the path I took and end result

 

ps another reason I suggest go this in two steps is...given the amount being spent on standmounts/floor standers...I would spend more on the sub...

 

and dont fail to check out some local options on subs...eg osborne

 

http://www.osbornloudspeakers.com.au/

 

exceptional local product thats extraordinarily good value...spend around the $2k mark and just see what an awesome sub you get !

 

some other good subs eg the legend audio kurlo. clean tight and goes deep....but keep in mind given the room size you have ...quite likely will need a couple of subs rather than one in this sort of price bracket...hence more the reason to keep saving...buy well and buy once !

[Malcolm]

I would also get in contact with forum sponsor Paul of Red Spade Audio . He could help you out with floor stand or stand mount ,subs and room acoustics setup . Even do room acoustic measurements with what you have now . To find out what direction to go with first.

Cheers

[henry218]

Paul carries one of the best value vs performance drivers in Australia with Dayton. their 15" HF subwoofer drivers is really really good, its not just HT good, but its REALLLY good .

[Topman_Chief]

Thanks Al. I do worry that in a room this size standmounts will sound a little light on their own, but I could always start with one sub at the beginning and then another later I guess. Despite not necessarily wanting to "load" the room (per the article link in original post), I would like the right bass "weight".  

[betty boop]

topman if you are in melbourne...pay someone like osborne a visit. have a listen to his tiniest standmounts in his largest room...coupled with the massive subs he runs in that room was best sound on the night from his entire range.... 

 

I wouldnt underestimate the level of subs youd need to energise a room that size...but also dont underestimate the level of sound quality can achieve with a real nice pair of standmounts or floorstanders

 

ps some other excellent local options too, but probably good to just get a bit of a feel for yourself the kind of end result can get with a few options in a larger room as you would run in.

[houdinifangs]

Subs + moderate + family = perhaps you might end up with subs off for much of the time. I find that subs don't come into their own without a bit of volume.

BTW electronic and heavy metal does not need a truck load of deep bass to sound great. Deep bass adds a huge WOW factor but tight and detailed bass has it's own joys. Careful matching of speakers (even bookshelves) and amp can give very satisfying results at moderate sound levels...and then some...

[henry218]

at the contrary listening to lower level spl requires more LF to get the feel. under 80hz is just "feel", impact and slam is at higher freq, which means that leave to your main speakers

[Krispy Audio]

It is a great article. The ability to be able to adjust a sub independently of your speakers is a good argument for standmount/sub combo. At $3k used you've got a fair bit of choice as well. 

 

When you say lots of hard surfaces and little room for treatment, I'd be going sub/standmount for sure. 

[Jumbuck]

For me I think the problem with subs is setting them up correctly. I use a pair with my Magneplanars as they do benefit from them and they weren't too hard to blend in to the Maggies. However with my Elac floorstanders I haven't even bothered to use the subs as I don't think there would be much of an improvement as the speakers were designed to be full range anyway. In fact I would be concerned they would sound worse with subs as it would/might change the sound of the speakers.

Having tried a few standmount speakers over the years I can see the need/benefit in subs although some standmounts can also do a good job on the bass. But by the time you get a pair of subs, good stands and then the speakers why not just get a better pair of floorstanders in the first place? Much easier to setup and probably cheaper as well.

[henry218]

for the reason dave mention earlier, you can get better sub bass if positioned well.

but having a 3way with dedicated woofer helps the midrange alot, when in KEF case, it is both, stand mount and have dedicated midbass, and the comparison between having another small woofers than having a BIG woofers with its own amp, i just think that its a no brainer

[Krispy Audio]

Because you can choose placement, you can dial them in independent of the main speakers, a standmount cabinet is more likely to be more rigid (for less cabinet coloration), and having a smaller baffle is also usually desirable. Aesthetically a standmount/sub combo can also look less imposing when trying to please other family members! 

[pete_mac]

 

Does anyone know if John Darko runs a sub with his various standmounts?

Negative!

[sfdoddsy]

In my experience stand mounts and floor standers both need subs. There are very few truly full range speakers, and you pay a disproportionate amount for that last octave.

 

So it comes down to cost and aesthetics.

 

A floorstander is often easier to integrate with subs because it plays lower and thus adds less of it own roll-off to the crossover.

 

The much loved Kef LS50s, for example, roll-off quite high and have problems crossing to a sub at the usual 80Hz or lower.

 

I like satellites out into the room (whether floor or stand mount) and a pair of subs up against the front wall, with EQ.

[burningpanda]

Interesting article, i note  "the mains ideally should be solid to 55Hz and perhaps be -3dB down at 40Hz" in the comments section. There's plenty of good sized standmounters that would/should work if that's the case. I'm using Kef XQ30's which have a freq range closer to the R300 than the R500 in a room a little larger than yours. Have a couple of REL 328's in a system that plays 80% stereo, 20% surround music, crossover points set around 36db.

 

   I'd go for standmounts if family considerations are an issue (although there's the added expense of speaker stands) and spend the rest on a PAIR of GOOD musical subs. Not only are a pair easier to integrate but ... ahh there's plenty of stuff out there on the merits of multiple subs so you get my drift. My learned colleagues have covered the pros and cons but I'd want to be confident that the chosen speakers have enough bottom end to stand on their own merits. (ie: not toooo small)

[Darren69]

I am thinking of a sub to go with my floor standing Focal 1038 Be's, I don't think they are going right to the bottom. Maybe will stick with Focal or add a REL.

[davewantsmoore]

I am thinking of a sub to go with my floor standing Focal 1038 Be's, I don't think they are going right to the bottom.

 

They should.   (-6dB@30 Hz)    At Hz below 100, your room has a bigger effect than anything else.    It will create large holes in the sound which need to be fixed by placement of bass sources, bass traps, and EQ.

 

So the benefit of a subwoofer for you is mostly going to be placement freedom, and more max SPL.    You may not need to high-pass filter your mains, unless they are currently placed badly (for bass)

[betty boop]

Darren my divas start rolling off at 40 hz and in room still plenty there at 20hz. What the sub brings is sub 40hz ending up with a pretty smooth response 200-15hz

Go with a really decent sub though and while placement is no1 and king ( ie I would try get sub front centre of room) eq will be essential to give a decent response at main listening position plus will help greatly with smooth integration of sub into mains and room

[Topman_Chief]

Just realised that the link to the article I was referring to somehow didn't carry across with the post, so here it is:

 

http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2014/02/kih-6-loading-the-room/ 

Edited March 4, 2014 by Topman_Chief

[Malcolm]

You can buy a stand mount or a floor stand speaker but it still needs to be able to work in room ,better of putting some money away for room treatments . Because it doesn't matter what speaker you buy its going to end up in your room .

 

http://redspade-audio.blogspot.com.au/

http://www.redspade.com.au/audio/index.php

 

Cheers

[Malcolm]

Because you can choose placement, you can dial them in independent of the main speakers, a standmount cabinet is more likely to be more rigid (for less cabinet coloration), and having a smaller baffle is also usually desirable. Aesthetically a standmount/sub combo can also look less imposing when trying to please other family members! 

You can choose placement with a stand mount as well ,as far as rigidity they can both be as rigid as on another ,please explain box coloration .