Circa-1970 Kriesler Jumbo - where to get serviced in Adelaide?

[Sir_Lunchalot]

G’day everyone!

 

This is my first proper post on this forum by the way (apart from my introduction post of course).

 

I will be acquiring from my grandfather in a few months’ time a Kriesler ‘Jumbo’ record player from around 1970 or so. It was actually bought new by my great-grandfather, and I believe it was a fairly decent piece of equipment at the time. Considering its age, it is in very good condition, since it has been sitting under a drop-sheet in a well-maintained garage for the past 30 years.

 

It is quite a nice thing really. It is situated in a solid, oiled teak case, with two floor-standing Magnavox speakers (I believe anyway. They’re badged as Kriesler though), also in teak. The amplifier has a rather nifty surface noise reduction switch, which vastly improves the experience when listening to noisier 78s.

 

The turntable itself is a BSR changer, possibly an MA65 (according to Radiomuseum anyway. Certainly looks the same). I have read that some BSRs are not the best, but this one seems quite good really.

 

Although it plays well, the turntable seems to bind slightly on something each revolution, as evidenced by a regular metallic scraping sound.

 

I could probably fix the problem myself, but I suppose I would like to get it fully serviced, since it probably hasn’t been looked at since new. As a result, I thought I would ask: where would be a good place to take it to if I wanted to get it professionally serviced?

 

I don’t live in Adelaide (I live on the Eyre Peninsula - about an eight-hour drive to the city), but I assume that I would be hard-pressed to find someone any place closer. I make at least a couple of trips to Adelaide each year anyway.

 

I hope that you may be able to point me in the right direction!

 

Thanks,

William

[audiofeline]

Welcome to SNA William.

 

The Kriesler is certainly from the early 70's, it isn't much different from the first stereo I bought (with money saved from part-time after school jobs).  These type of systems were the default stereo systems of the day, sold in the record chains and electrical stores. 

 

Your "Jumbo" will probably require a lot of work.  

 

It is likely that the turntable lubricants have hardened, which will need to be cleaned and replaced (not impossible, but a bit of labour).  And don't think about playing a record until you have bought a new stylus (they are available online), most old turntables have original and worn styli that will damage any record played (it only takes one play with a worn stylus to damage it).  Even with a good styli, it has a high tracking weight and I would be wary of playing good records on it (nothing wrong with enjoying op-shop disks on it!). 

 

It is also likely that the electronics will need capacitors changes (they have a limited lifespan), again this will take a bit of labour. 

 

The speakers probably have paper surrounds on the cones, which is likely to be damaged with time.  Cones can be repaired, however, given that these speakers would have been cheap when they were manufactured you will get a much improved sound by replacing them with modern cones and a modern crossover network (the speakers probably only have a capacitor as a crossover).  And I'm not suggesting expensive speakers, entry-level components will provide the upgrade and be compatible with what will drive them. 

The speaker cabinets would also benefit from some enhancement, I put bracing inside to reduce the panels from vibrating (eg. some strips of wood side-side and front-back glued in). 

 

Sorry, I'm not in SA so can't suggest repairers.  Electronics-wise, this isn't a complicated system, so any electronics technician could service the electrics.  Finding someone with the knowledge, patience and ability and to strip the turntable may be harder (many people who say they can do it don't really know turntables).  You will be probably able to find youtube videos of people restoring BSR turntables (Garrard auto-changes from the same era are very similar). 

 

All of this will cost a bit of money, probably more than the system's worth.  I know it has some sentimental value, and nowdays (for some reason) these record players do have fashionable "retro appeal".  But, even with servicing and upgrading the speakers, it's not going to have a hifi quality sound. 

 

Please don't take this as me being a hifi snob, you could probably buy a vintage amp and turntable for what you would spend on restoring the Kriesler, and with some bookshelf speakers have a much better sound than this could ever provide. 

 

Here's a pic, take from the interweb...

 

Edited March 12 by audiofeline

[aussievintage]

I love old consoles.  This one looks like a "modern" example.

 

Looking at the BSR table, is that a counterbalanced tonearm (it looks like it),  and does it have magnetic cartridge in it?  If so, then it can be restored to the point where it can safely play good records.

 

The speakers might use old Magnavox full-range drivers - which may still be good, and have quite a nice sound.

[Sir_Lunchalot]

1 hour ago, audiofeline said:

Welcome to SNA William.

 

The Kriesler is certainly from the early 70's, it isn't much different from the first stereo I bought (with money saved from part-time after school jobs).  These type of systems were the default stereo systems of the day, sold in the record chains and electrical stores. 

 

Your "Jumbo" will probably require a lot of work.  

 

It is likely that the turntable lubricants have hardened, which will need to be cleaned and replaced (not impossible, but a bit of labour).  And don't think about playing a record until you have bought a new stylus (they are available online), most old turntables have original and worn styli that will damage any record played (it only takes one play with a worn stylus to damage it).  Even with a good styli, it has a high tracking weight and I would be wary of playing good records on it (nothing wrong with enjoying op-shop disks on it!). 

 

It is also likely that the electronics will need capacitors changes (they have a limited lifespan), again this will take a bit of labour. 

 

The speakers probably have paper surrounds on the cones, which is likely to be damaged with time.  Cones can be repaired, however, given that these speakers would have been cheap when they were manufactured you will get a much improved sound by replacing them with modern cones and a modern crossover network (the speakers probably only have a capacitor as a crossover).  And I'm not suggesting expensive speakers, entry-level components will provide the upgrade and be compatible with what will drive them. 

The speaker cabinets would also benefit from some enhancement, I put bracing inside to reduce the panels from vibrating (eg. some strips of wood side-side and front-back glued in). 

 

Sorry, I'm not in SA so can't suggest repairers.  Electronics-wise, this isn't a complicated system, so any electronics technician could service the electrics.  Finding someone with the knowledge, patience and ability and to strip the turntable may be harder (many people who say they can do it don't really know turntables).  You will be probably able to find youtube videos of people restoring BSR turntables (Garrard auto-changes from the same era are very similar). 

 

All of this will cost a bit of money, probably more than the system's worth.  I know it has some sentimental value, and nowdays (for some reason) these record players do have fashionable "retro appeal".  But, even with servicing and upgrading the speakers, it's not going to have a hifi quality sound. 

 

Please don't take this as me being a hifi snob, you could probably buy a vintage amp and turntable for what you would spend on restoring the Kriesler, and with some bookshelf speakers have a much better sound than this could ever provide. 

 

Here's a pic, take from the interweb...

 

Thanks for the information. I certainly understand that the Kriesler is neither hi-fi nor perhaps as gentle on records as a newer or higher-end system, but for me it’s not so much a question of fidelity (though it sounds pretty good to me!). As well as the sentimental value that you mentioned, it also has a ‘charm’ that I appreciate. I think it probably stems from the fact that I am a bit of a collector of older things (two gramophones and a number of field telephones just as far as audio equipment is concerned), and as a result I like to appreciate things (records in this case) as the common person would have at the time. I suppose I have a bit of a soft spot for the early 70s style too.

 

As far as getting it serviced goes, money is no object for me, simply because of the sentimental value once again. I’d just like to have it run like new (it doesn’t work too bad as it is) so that I can belt out some of my old records. None of my vinyl records are particularly expensive or irreplaceable, though of course I don’t intend to ruin them! I just think that if it hasn’t worn out a record yet (it was the only player my family had for around 20 years, and they still have the exact same records), then I won’t do mine too much harm with the amount I play them.

 

Anyway, hopefully someone knows a place that I can take it to get it properly serviced. I hope that there’s still someone around that knows BSRs!

 

Thanks,

William

[audiofeline]

Are you a member of VinylEngine - they have instruction (and sometimes service) manuals for turntables.  BSR released many variants of this type of auto-changer, with little difference, so the excat instruction/service manual is less critical.  Shout out here if you don't have these and aren't signed up for VE. 

 

The companion site HifiEngine has schematics for the Kriesler 11-104, 11-109, 11-114, 11-151, 11-98A electronics, have a look at your gear to get the precise model numbers (you might need to look at the bottom or underneath for this).

 

Edited March 12 by audiofeline

[Sir_Lunchalot]

2 minutes ago, aussievintage said:

I love old consoles.  This one looks like a "modern" example.

 

Looking at the BSR table, is that a counterbalanced tonearm (it looks like it),  and does it have magnetic cartridge in it?  If so, then it can be restored to the point where it can safely play good records.

 

The speakers might use old Magnavox full-range drivers - which may still be good, and have quite a nice sound.

Yes, I am quite fond of the older consoles as well! That’s why I decided to take up my Pop’s offer.

 

My example is almost identical. I am thinking that the tonearm is counterbalanced (can’t check - it’s 2,500km away right now), since the tracking force is adjustable. It also has adjustable anti-skate, so it’s pretty good for a BSR changer! I believe that mine has a ceramic cartridge (Tetrad C2), as it has a flip over stylus.

 

As I said in my reply to audiofeline above (was just about to post it when you commented), it sounds quite good, with a nice ‘full’ sound. The speakers are certainly not tiny!

 

I have attached the only two pictures of it that I have, so that you can see the exact unit that I am talking about.

[Sir_Lunchalot]

3 minutes ago, audiofeline said:

Are you a member of VinylEngine - they have instruction (and sometimes service) manuals for turntables.  BSR released many variants of this type of auto-changer, with little difference, so the excat instruction/service manual is less critical.  Shout out here if you don't have these and aren't signed up for VE. 

I am actually not a member, although I have visited their site a number of times in the past. I seem to recall trying to register, but getting some sort of message stating that registrations had been suspended for a time(?).

 

(By the way, according to Radiomuseum the turntable is a BSR MA65. I think this is correct, as I looked that up and it is identical to the one on my unit.)

[audiofeline]

I'm not sure that this tonearm is counterbalanced (by the above photo).  The BSR I had adjusted the tracking weight with a spring, it could be that they made it to look counterbalanced. 

Post some better photos when you get the unit.  Also, you might not have noticed edits I made in my above post regarding the electronics (I wasn't expecting you to reply so quickly). 
I recall speakers for these systems being quite large, but also being quite light.  In many cases (and at the entry level) the weight of the speakers can give an indication of quality. 

[Sir_Lunchalot]

1 minute ago, audiofeline said:

I'm not sure that this tonearm is counterbalanced (by the above photo).  The BSR I had adjusted the tracking weight with a spring, it could be that they made it to look counterbalanced. 

Post some better photos when you get the unit.  Also, you might not have noticed edits I made in my above post regarding the electronics (I wasn't expecting you to reply so quickly). 
I recall speakers for these systems being quite large, but also being quite light.  In many cases (and at the entry level) the weight of the speakers can give an indication of quality. 

Yes, I only replied as quickly as I did because I was already here responding to aussievintage, and I thought it’d be rude if I left without acknowledging your reply!

 

I did wonder if it was a spring that controlled the tracking weight, as I knew that most changers of the period used that system.

 

I’ll certainly post some better pictures when I can, though I don’t know if I’ll be getting the unit before July. I just thought I’d start looking for a place to get it serviced in advance. Hopefully someone can point me to a suitable place!

[Darryl]

@skies2clear is generally the recommended repairer in Adelaide.

 

Might be worth contacting him.

[aussievintage]

3 hours ago, Sir_Lunchalot said:

 

I did wonder if it was a spring that controlled the tracking weight, as I knew that most changers of the period used that system.

 

Garrard changed from springs to counterbalanced weight in the best of their auto changers.  BSR might have done the same.  A good picture could clear it up.  I found some manuals on Vinyl Engine that talk about counterbalance weights with settings low enought to support the use of magnetic carts.  However, if yours has a ceramic, the electronics won't have the necessary phono preamp for magnetic.

[aussievintage]

4 hours ago, Sir_Lunchalot said:

(By the way, according to Radiomuseum the turntable is a BSR MA65. I think this is correct, as I looked that up and it is identical to the one on my unit.)

 

The MA65 manual looks as though it uses a tension spring for stylus force adjustment

[Sir_Lunchalot]

1 hour ago, Darryl said:

@skies2clear is generally the recommended repairer in Adelaide.

 

Might be worth contacting him.

Thanks, I’ll get in touch with him!

[audiofeline]

11 hours ago, aussievintage said:

Garrard changed from springs to counterbalanced weight in the best of their auto changers.  BSR might have done the same.  A good picture could clear it up.  I found some manuals on Vinyl Engine that talk about counterbalance weights with settings low enought to support the use of magnetic carts.  However, if yours has a ceramic, the electronics won't have the necessary phono preamp for magnetic.

I would expect the BSR has a ceramic cart.  Converting to a moving magnet cart is possible, but would be difficult.  The headshell probably isn't designed to change cart's, it would need modification.  Using a MM cart that tracks at a higher weight (eg. AT3600 or AT3600L, I can't recall which tracks heavier) would still require mod's to the arm to get the counterbalancing weight correct.  As I understand, ceramic cart's input in an amp is very similar to standard line-inputs, so an external phono stage would need to be added.  Although this would provide an upgrade in the sound quality, I'm not sure that it would be worth the effort (and would also risk highlighting the rumble from the cheap rim-drive BSR).  I would tend to keep the ceramic cart, and make sure that the styli is changed at regular intervals (as they tend to wear quickly with the high tracking weight), fortunately they are very available online. 

[Vinylear]

From your photo a stylus such as this should work

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/154291776960?srsltid=AfmBOopYVueAEeSC4R4_Y1-HpgmmjH0rN6s1SU0q6QlA7OmhPamfXUIY

 

There are other sellers too if you search for the cartridge plus number. 

 

[Sir_Lunchalot]

2 hours ago, audiofeline said:

I would expect the BSR has a ceramic cart.  Converting to a moving magnet cart is possible, but would be difficult.  The headshell probably isn't designed to change cart's, it would need modification.  Using a MM cart that tracks at a higher weight (eg. AT3600 or AT3600L, I can't recall which tracks heavier) would still require mod's to the arm to get the counterbalancing weight correct.  As I understand, ceramic cart's input in an amp is very similar to standard line-inputs, so an external phono stage would need to be added.  Although this would provide an upgrade in the sound quality, I'm not sure that it would be worth the effort (and would also risk highlighting the rumble from the cheap rim-drive BSR).  I would tend to keep the ceramic cart, and make sure that the styli is changed at regular intervals (as they tend to wear quickly with the high tracking weight), fortunately they are very available online. 

Yes, that’s what I’ve been thinking as well. My reasoning for leaving it in original condition is that if I ever want a more ‘hi-fi’ setup with moving magnet cart, etc. I can just get a new setup. As a bit of a collector I’m a bit of a stickler for my things being left in, or restored to original condition!

[aussievintage]

8 minutes ago, Sir_Lunchalot said:

Yes, that’s what I’ve been thinking as well. My reasoning for leaving it in original condition is that if I ever want a more ‘hi-fi’ setup with moving magnet cart, etc. I can just get a new setup. As a bit of a collector I’m a bit of a stickler for my things being left in, or restored to original condition!

 

I agree.  I was mainly trying to establish what was in there currently.  As I said, moving to a magnetic cart would involve electronics that the unit does not have.   That said,  some places you will see 7 grams as the tracking force for ceramic/crystal carts.  Often, in a good table, they will work well at 4 grams or less, and it is a lot kinder on your records.

[Sir_Lunchalot]

1 hour ago, Vinylear said:

From your photo a stylus such as this should work

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/154291776960?srsltid=AfmBOopYVueAEeSC4R4_Y1-HpgmmjH0rN6s1SU0q6QlA7OmhPamfXUIY

 

There are other sellers too if you search for the cartridge plus number. 

 

Thanks for the link. I did actually have a bit of a look on the internet a few weeks back, scouring websites such as Wagner and Soundring, and I have discovered that even though there are lots of compatible styli around, almost all of them have 2 LP styli, one on each side. Of course, with my collection of 78s I need a stylus with a 78 side and an LP side.

 

Just about the only ones that are expressly marked as having a 78 side are here: https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/234945376834?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=705-154756-20017-0&ssspo=pdRD6sY-Rka&sssrc=4429486&ssuid=bjzudtuqq52&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

 

I’m thinking I might pick up a couple, so that I can enjoy the unit for the next 50 years!

[Sir_Lunchalot]

1 minute ago, aussievintage said:

 

I agree.  I was mainly trying to establish what was in there currently.  As I said, moving to a magnetic cart would involve electronics that the unit does not have.   That said,  some places you will see 7 grams as the tracking force for ceramic/crystal carts.  Often, in a good table, they will work well at 4 grams or less, and it is a lot kinder on your records.

By the way, I have not been able to find a definite answer on the internet, but is there a difference between ceramic and crystal cartridges?

 

My sound engineer friend told me that they are the same thing, and I have no reason to doubt him, but then I read that crystal carts use rochelle salt crystals, while ceramic carts use some sort of ceramic element instead. I have no idea if that’s right or not, but I’m sure that either way it’s not quite as simple as a yes/no answer.

[aussievintage]

1 minute ago, Sir_Lunchalot said:

By the way, I have not been able to find a definite answer on the internet, but is there a difference between ceramic and crystal cartridges?

 

My sound engineer friend told me that they are the same thing, and I have no reason to doubt him, but then I read that crystal carts use rochelle salt crystals, while ceramic carts use some sort of ceramic element instead. I have no idea if that’s right or not, but I’m sure that either way it’s not quite as simple as a yes/no answer.

 

I believe for most purposes, treat them as the same thing. Yes, early crystal carts (Rochelle salts crystal) deteriorated due to moisture getting at the crystal.  Later carts used ceramics and had lower output.   Nearly everything you run across now will be ceramic I expect.

[Sir_Lunchalot]

23 minutes ago, aussievintage said:

 

I believe for most purposes, treat them as the same thing. Yes, early crystal carts (Rochelle salts crystal) deteriorated due to moisture getting at the crystal.  Later carts used ceramics and had lower output.   Nearly everything you run across now will be ceramic I expect.

Ok, thanks. Am I correct in thinking that they also have lower compliance than magnetic carts? And is that part of the reason that they are slightly harsher on records?

 

Hope you don’t mind all of the questions, I just thought I might as well ask while we’re on the topic of cartridges.

[Sir_Lunchalot]

44 minutes ago, Sir_Lunchalot said:

Thanks for the link. I did actually have a bit of a look on the internet a few weeks back, scouring websites such as Wagner and Soundring, and I have discovered that even though there are lots of compatible styli around, almost all of them have 2 LP styli, one on each side. Of course, with my collection of 78s I need a stylus with a 78 side and an LP side.

 

Just about the only ones that are expressly marked as having a 78 side are here: https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/234945376834?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=705-154756-20017-0&ssspo=pdRD6sY-Rka&sssrc=4429486&ssuid=bjzudtuqq52&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

 

I’m thinking I might pick up a couple, so that I can enjoy the unit for the next 50 years!

Just found this: https://goldringstylus.com.au/shop/styli-record-needles/goldring-replacement/goldring-d464srstd-stylus/

 

Might be a better bet than the eBay ones I found, since these look like new production (not that new old stock is bad). It doesn’t say whether they’re diamond or sapphire for the LP side though.

[aussievintage]

2 hours ago, Sir_Lunchalot said:

Ok, thanks. Am I correct in thinking that they also have lower compliance than magnetic carts? And is that part of the reason that they are slightly harsher on records?

 

Hope you don’t mind all of the questions, I just thought I might as well ask while we’re on the topic of cartridges.

 

NP. Yes, mostly they are very low compliance.  A couple of the best ones - such as some Sonotones and some Philips were really quite good, but most were not.  The stiffness, and the required tracking force because of it, all are hard on vinyl.

[aussievintage]

2 hours ago, Sir_Lunchalot said:

Just found this: https://goldringstylus.com.au/shop/styli-record-needles/goldring-replacement/goldring-d464srstd-stylus/

 

Might be a better bet than the eBay ones I found, since these look like new production (not that new old stock is bad). It doesn’t say whether they’re diamond or sapphire for the LP side though.

 

 

Also

 

https://www.soundring.com.au/soundring-d464sr-2-stereo-2-ceramic-stylus/

[audiofeline]

3 hours ago, Sir_Lunchalot said:

Just found this: https://goldringstylus.com.au/shop/styli-record-needles/goldring-replacement/goldring-d464srstd-stylus/

 

Might be a better bet than the eBay ones I found, since these look like new production (not that new old stock is bad). It doesn’t say whether they’re diamond or sapphire for the LP side though.

This is a good thing to be aware of.  Many of the replacement styli for the cheap red+black ceramic carts that are in Crossly turntables are sapphire (ie, the Chou Denshi CZ-800 clones).  

 

What 78's do you have?  If you want to listen to them properly use a cart with 78 styli, and use a phono preamp with various eq curves for 78's.  There are many direct drive turntables (non-quartz, eg. Technics SL-D1/2/3) which can be easily modified to play 78's (requires a resistor and a switch), you can have a headshell/cart for microgroove and another for 78's (or have a cart which can swap microgroove/78 styli). 

 

Edited March 13 by audiofeline