Streamer + DSP + DAC recommendations?

[Raghavtib]

Hi, 

After going down the rabbit hole for a few weeks, I’ve decided that I want to implement DSP in my system. I’m currently in the midst of an upgrade cycle, and I wanted to buy an Eversolo A10 + Rotel Rb1582 Mk3, but then I started reading about DSP and now I’m confused. 

 

The Eversolo A8 + A10 DSPs will down-sample hi-res audio from Apple Music to 24bit/48khz in order to apply any REW filters I create. The best DSP that I could find will sample it down to 24bit/96khz.

Am I missing something here? Are there DSPs out there that would apply EQ settings to the audio track without down sampling?

 

I discovered Lyngdorf Audio and their all-digital amplification products. It looks like the Lyngdorf TDAi 1120 + TDAi 3400 would keep the digital signal at full hi-res (24bit/192khz) while applying RoomPerfect filters? (RoomPerfect is their room correction software like Dirac.)

 

Now I have what may be a stupid question, but it’s what is holding me back from buying a lyngdorf - If I connect the digital inputs on the TDAi 1120 to a streamer (DMP-A6), and I use the analog outputs to connect the TDAi 1120 to an integrated amp, will RoomPerfect still be able to integrate the subwoofers and fix the bass response? 

 

My setup is -

Speakers - B&W PM1 (Frequency Response: 48hz-22khz; Sensitivity: 84dB)

Subwoofer 1 - B&W ASW10CM

Subwoofer 2 - SVS Sb2000

 

I’m upgrading the electronics. I want the Eversolo A6 for hi-res Apple Music, but I don’t want to use its DAC or upgrade to the A8 or A10 because of their DSP (down sampling to 48khz). 

 

I’m deciding between - 

1. Eversolo A6 + Lyngdorf TDAi 1120 + Rotel MICHI X5 S2

2. Eversolo A6 Gen 2 + Lyngdorf TDAi 3400 (without optional modules)

 

I want the Lyngdorfs for their DSP + RoomPerfect, but I’m weary of getting the 3400 as the amp because the internet says that they lack musicality and there’s no way for me to demo the amp where I live. So will using the Rotel ‘bring back’ that musicality?

I obviously cannot afford both the 3400 and the MICHI, so it’s either/or.

Edited February 7 by Raghavtib

[Satanica]

Forget hi-res as it is jut a container for high frequencies that are typically not recorded and if they were you couldn't hear; 48kHz is probably more than you need. Unless I'm mistaken, neither of those Lyngdorf units have subwoofer outputs; they appear to only have Left and Right channel outputs. I run Dirac Live and Dirace Live Bass Control from a PC which can operate up tp 24bit/192kHz, but so what.

[Satanica]

Also I don't notice subwoofer outputs on the Eversolo A6 and A8 and the A10 appears to have Left and Right stereo subwoofer outputs, not mono subwoofer outputs. I presume as you are wanting to run two subwoofers that are two different make and models, that you want to run them as mono subwoofers, not stereo subwoofers.

[Snoopy8]

You have the big challenge of buying something without being able to audition.  And you have to educate your self, and your ears on your musical preferences.  For example, "lacking musically" for someone is perfectly ok for another.  It can be due the amp, DAC or more likely a combination of everything in the music chain. 

 

Maybe it is time to start with something cheaper like a Wiim streamer with a used amp or even the Wiim Amp.  It will sound better than the AVR you had.  Use your iPhone for Apple Music.  Can you hear the difference in high res ? (I can't!). Learn how to do simple DSP, how to integrate subs.  Is it worth the effort? 

 

After you have gained more experience, then consider whether you want to upgrade to an Eversolo, Lyngdorf etc.. ? 

[Raghavtib]

5 hours ago, Satanica said:

Forget hi-res as it is jut a container for high frequencies that are typically not recorded and if they were you couldn't hear; 48kHz is probably more than you need. Unless I'm mistaken, neither of those Lyngdorf units have subwoofer outputs; they appear to only have Left and Right channel outputs. I run Dirac Live and Dirace Live Bass Control from a PC which can operate up tp 24bit/192kHz, but so what.

The TDAi 1120 has two analog outputs which can be configured to act as mono sub outputs. But it has no digital outputs, so the only way to connect it to an amp is to use those two outputs. Hence, I would not be able to connect the subwoofers directly to the TDAi 1120 - they would have to be connected to the amp. Do you think RoomPerfect and the Lyngdorf software would be able to control the subs with an integrated amp down the chain? 

Dirac Live and Dirac Live Bass Control also sample down to 48kHz. And I understand that it doesn’t make an audible difference and that the room correction has a greater impact than the bitrate, but if the Lyngdorf DSP will apply filters at full resolution then perhaps I don’t have to make that trade off. 

The reason why I’m taking so much care to get full resolution throughput with DSP is because I’m buying a new apartment, which gives me the opportunity to design a study room. I’m going to treat the walls and the ceilings, but it’s not a studio and so it will be minimal treatment (no corner bass traps, exposed foam panels etc). 

[Satanica]

50 minutes ago, Raghavtib said:

The TDAi 1120 has two analog outputs which can be configured to act as mono sub outputs. But it has no digital outputs, so the only way to connect it to an amp is to use those two outputs. Hence, I would not be able to connect the subwoofers directly to the TDAi 1120 - they would have to be connected to the amp. Do you think RoomPerfect and the Lyngdorf software would be able to control the subs with an integrated amp down the chain? 

 

No, if I understand correctly this doesn't sound like it would work. But, it seems like this device would work if you connect your speakers to the speaker outputs and the subwoofers to the Left and Right RCA outputs (configured a subwoofer outputs). 

 

50 minutes ago, Raghavtib said:

Dirac Live and Dirac Live Bass Control also sample down to 48kHz. And I understand that it doesn’t make an audible difference and that the room correction has a greater impact than the bitrate, but if the Lyngdorf DSP will apply filters at full resolution then perhaps I don’t have to make that trade off. 

Dirac Live and Bass Control can work up to 192kHz, but most devices won't support it at those higher rates. I presume it's because they don't have the computing power. 

Edited February 8 by Satanica

[Raghavtib]

14 minutes ago, Satanica said:

Dirac Live and Bass Control can work up to 192kHz, but most devices won't support it at those higher rates. I presume it's because they don't have the computing power. 

 

That’s interesting, I’ll read about how to make Dirac Live work up to 192kHz. If computing power is the bottleneck, I’m guessing that a conventional desktop/laptop would be the only choice? 

 

15 minutes ago, Satanica said:

 

No, if I understand correctly this doesn't sound like it would work. But, it seems like this device would work if you connect your speakers to the speaker outputs and the subwoofers to the Left and Right RCA outputs (configured a subwoofer outputs). 

 

 

Thanks! I thought so too, but I wasn’t sure and I needed the confirmation. 

So the only way for me to use a Lyngdorf DSP would be to buy the TDAi 3400 so that both speakers and both subs are plugged directly into the device. 

Frankly, at the price of the 3400, there are so many better options, and I’m probably going to rethink the whole system again. This is fun…

[Raghavtib]

5 hours ago, Snoopy8 said:

You have the big challenge of buying something without being able to audition.  And you have to educate your self, and your ears on your musical preferences.  For example, "lacking musically" for someone is perfectly ok for another.  It can be due the amp, DAC or more likely a combination of everything in the music chain. 

 

Maybe it is time to start with something cheaper like a Wiim streamer with a used amp or even the Wiim Amp.  It will sound better than the AVR you had.  Use your iPhone for Apple Music.  Can you hear the difference in high res ? (I can't!). Learn how to do simple DSP, how to integrate subs.  Is it worth the effort? 

 

After you have gained more experience, then consider whether you want to upgrade to an Eversolo, Lyngdorf etc.. ? 

 

Yeah, that seems reasonable but I don’t think I have the patience to wait a couple of years for the next upgrade cycle. I’m anxious that if I save the money now, I’ll end up spending it on the house or on a car, and have nothing left for the system. 

[Keith_W]

Dude, your system is in your bedroom. Your bookshelf speakers are sitting on two "wings" of an entertainment cabinet that is pushed up against a wall. You have much bigger problems to address before you should even begin to worry about some digital component downsampling from 24-bit. For a start, I would look at finding a better room to place your speakers. Then I would think about getting speaker stands and setting them up properly. If you can't do any of that, I would stop right there and stop wasting money on a bedroom system. It is likely to be as good as it can be, given your limitations. I am sorry to be so harsh, but someone has to say it. 

[Raghavtib]

3 minutes ago, Keith_W said:

Dude, your system is in your bedroom. Your bookshelf speakers are sitting on two "wings" of an entertainment cabinet that is pushed up against a wall. You have much bigger problems to address before you should even begin to worry about some digital component downsampling from 24-bit. For a start, I would look at finding a better room to place your speakers. Then I would think about getting speaker stands and setting them up properly. If you can't do any of that, I would stop right there and stop wasting money on a bedroom system. It is likely to be as good as it can be, given your limitations. I am sorry to be so harsh, but someone has to say it. 

you don’t have to apologize, these are facts. The reason that I’m putting in so much effort to upgrade the system now is because I’m purchasing the apartment below the one I live in now. 
 

I’ll be building a study there, which I can treat for better sonic properties. At that time, I’ll also buy better speakers (floorstanding or with stands). 
 

so I don’t want to get electronics now and want to upgrade them again next year once the construction is finished.

[Keith_W]

Well if money is burning a hole in your pocket, you should buy a UMIK-2, a mic tripod, and download REW. Learn to take sweeps and understand what your mic is telling you. You will need a mic for DSP anyway, so you may as well get it now. Spend the time between now and next year learning everything you can about acoustics. If you are interested in DSP, learn what you can about DSP. 

 

Do not jump in and purchase without knowing what you are buying. ALL DSP purchases can potentially be very bad mistakes if the product is matched to the wrong buyer. Some DSP systems are so dumbed down that you can barely tune it. Others are so complex that you need a Ph.D to tune it. If you are a "no stone unturned" kind of guy,  you won't be happy with an entry level DSP system. But if you are a "I value convenience" guy, then something which requires a lot of manual tuning won't be for you. IOW, DSP can run from consumer grade to engineer grade. If you want an idea of what "engineer grade" is, take a look at the documentation for Denis Sbragion's DRC-FIR and see how many of those terms you understand. 

 

The DSP market is the opposite of what you would expect. The most powerful tools are the least expensive (e.g. Sbragion's DRC-FIR is free), and the most dumbed down tools cost the most. This is because most of the effort in DSP software development goes into making complex corrections automated and easy to use. 

 

Anyway, my advice is to not spend any money and spend your time learning. You will find out very quickly whether you enjoy learning about acoustics or not. If you don't enjoy acoustics, then you have answered your own question - get an entry level DSP setup. But if you love acoustics, then maybe you should consider something more advanced.