Do high-end streamers make an audible difference?

[Almaz]

My question is purely about a streaming transport, not the dac. I am thinking of upgrading my Cambridge CXN which I use  as a streaming transport only in to a high end dac. Will spending more $$ on a higher end Streamer give me a noticeable audible difference? If so, may I please have some recommendations.

Thank you.

[Snoopy8]

Are you prepared to go DIY with a Pi5 and SnakeOil 1.4?  You do not have to spend a lot of dollars to get an excellent streaming transport, which beats some expensive commercial streamers!  

 

If you prefer not to go DIY,  then what is your budget?

[MattyW]

Yes, in my system th pose I’ve tried made a very significant improvement vs a Raspberry Pi 4B over USB, even using any number of highly regarded DDC’s  + OCXO clocks, or even the Gieseler Rheinigen which I regard the best of them.

 

Both the Soundaware D300REF and Silent Angel Munich MU were a significant improvement. Particularly when paired wired a quality OCXO master clock.

[Mendes]

Yes, it makes a difference in my experience.

 

I would recommend a Lumin U2 with the LPS but sure there may be others equally as good that I have not heard. 

 

Must confess I was stunned with the change it made as had previously used all in one streamer Dac combo's (Sonos, Pioneer and Gustard, all good at their price point).

 

The U2 is transport only so you can choose the flavor profile of your DAC.

 

Best of luck as sure many differing opinions coming 

 

 

[Snoopy8]

1 hour ago, MattyW said:

vs a Raspberry Pi 4B over USB, even using any number of highly regarded DDC’s  + OCXO clocks, or even the Gieseler Rheinigen which I regard the best of them.

Curious what OS were you using?  That is probably the biggest limitation that cannot be fixed by DDC, OCXO clock and even the Reinigen (which I regard highly).

[MattyW]

4 minutes ago, Snoopy8 said:

Curious what OS were you using?  That is probably the biggest limitation that cannot be fixed by DDC, OCXO clock and even the Reinigen (which I regard highly).

I tried a fair few though the best one I tried was the free one from Silent Angel 

[thimmy118]

I used to own a USB only Project streamer transport that costs less than $1,000. I was not able to detect any difference when compared to a Lumin U1 Mini with LHY updated power supply. I now own a Volumio Rivo and after upgrading the external power supply to an Ifi Elite, the sound was much better than the Project streamer transport. So yes I do think spending a bit more will give you a better sounding streamer transport especially those with better internal clocks, power supplies and filtering. 

[a.dent]

Before you make a decision about a new streamer have a read of this. http://archimago.blogspot.com/2023/12/do-bit-perfect-digital-sources-affect.html

 

It seems to clear up some myths.

[POV]

The truth, that’s often uncomfortable for communities like this is that no, they don’t make a substantial difference and in most cases the differences will either be inaudible, or so insignificant as to be not worth worrying about.  Assuming you are using a high quality, well designed asynchronous DAC, you should not invest time or energy worrying about the digital transport.

 

 

[pete_mac]

8 minutes ago, POV said:

 Assuming you are using a high quality, well designed asynchronous DAC, you should not invest time or energy worrying about the digital transport.

 

 

That doesn’t accord with my experience at all.
 

My DAC fits the bill as being a well designed asynchronous USB DAC.

 

Very happy with the improvement garnered through adding a Gieseler Reinigen to my Squeezebox Touch, and likewise my recent upgrade to a RPi 5 running SnakeOil 1.4 OS and Ubuntu with the real-time kernel. 

[Almaz]

Thank you to all who have taken the time to offer your suggestions and collective knowledge.

A friend is offering to bring his Aurender ACS100 up on the weekend for me to try. The Aurender has been on my mind for a couple of reasons. One the USB only connection which should suit my Dac. The other is its CD storage ability which is an added bonus. 
Certainly haven’t made my mind up yet as the Aurender is more than I have budgeted for, however very much looking forward to hearing the results.

Again thank you all for your input thus far.

[LogicprObe]

 

The more high end you go, the more they buffer.

You can't play the bits if you haven't got 'em.

 

Maybe this thread should be about download speeds?

[Kirby66]

15 hours ago, Almaz said:

My question is purely about a streaming transport, not the dac. I am thinking of upgrading my Cambridge CXN which I use  as a streaming transport only in to a high end dac. Will spending more $$ on a higher end Streamer give me a noticeable audible difference? If so, may I please have some recommendations.

Thank you.

Hi Alma, if only the answer was a simple Yes or No ... unfortunately the answer is maybe.

 

Your CXN is a very capable streamer with loads of functionality and connectivity options plus the StreamMagic control app seems well regarded by reviewers and users (the UI of my digital source is actually very important to me). However your question is whether you can get 'a noticeable audible difference' ... the streamer is a very important piece of the chain but still only one piece ... what you hear when listening to your system is exactly that, your system. If the rest of your system is capable of delivering the improvement a high/er end streamer may deliver then yes, you will (should) hear a difference.

 

Recommendation ... some idea of budget would be helpful to suggest options that are viable but using 'more than a CXN100 but less than a new car' as a guide I'd suggest you look at the Innuos Pulse range (I am an Innuos user and really like their gear). Trying most any new component in your own system is really the only way to know for certain and many shops will allow this usually based on you paying the full price then returning for a refund if you choose to do so.

 

Good luck with the research and potential upgrade 

 

PS: It would also be an idea to describe your whole system and an idea of what you are looking to improve ... you may be able to get a more significant improvement by changing something else at a lower cost which helps maximise what's delivered by the other components you already have including the CXN - synergy is almost the most important thing and sometimes relatively small, low cost changes can deliver big results.

 

 

[Kirby66]

7 hours ago, Almaz said:

Thank you to all who have taken the time to offer your suggestions and collective knowledge.

A friend is offering to bring his Aurender ACS100 up on the weekend for me to try. The Aurender has been on my mind for a couple of reasons. One the USB only connection which should suit my Dac. The other is its CD storage ability which is an added bonus. 
Certainly haven’t made my mind up yet as the Aurender is more than I have budgeted for, however very much looking forward to hearing the results.

Again thank you all for your input thus far.

I was just having a look at the ACS100 and found info that Aurender themselves say that the ACS100 is designed as a CD ripping and library management add on to their streamer products. It has a cheaper switch mode power supply rather than an LPS and the USB output is not filtered or isolated as they are in their streamers. It will be interesting to hear your impressions of the unit feeding your DAC. The USB output concern may be able to be managed with a stand alone USB reclocker ... a Gieseler USB Reinigen is a brilliant device for this purpose but does add another box and cost. I am a USB guy as that's Innuos' choice in the Zenith I have and it's great but as with anything else it has to be done right.

[POV]

11 hours ago, pete_mac said:

 

Very happy with the improvement garnered through adding a Gieseler Reinigen

 

3 hours ago, Kirby66 said:

The USB output concern may be able to be managed with a stand alone USB reclocker ... a Gieseler USB Reinigen is a brilliant device

 

USB reclockers are the hifi con that won't go away.  These are particularly interesting in that there is undoubtably, verifiably no possible way they can achieve anything, if they are being utilised with an asynchronous DAC.  By rights it should be a device that isn't subject to subjective debate, but yet still they persist and still people become convinced that they are doing something...a fascinating phenomenon.

 

The reason that reclockers cannot do anything with asynchronous USB DACs is that the DAC is asynchronous!  It means that the DAC takes no clocking signal from the USB source, and rather the data stream is buffered on the input side and then the DAC utilises it's own clocking signal from it's own clock.

 

Unfortunately, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary, people remain conviced that jitter, which is a solved issue in well designed asynchronous DACs is a problem they need to try to solve and then they get sold on these objectively pointless devices.  And for sure it's understandable if people spend circa $2k on a new toy to add to their digitaal chain they will hear a difference, report it on forums like this and the cycle of people burning their money continues.

 

In the very unlikely  circumstance, where there is a verifiable audible difference, there is only one possibility, and that is that there is a fundamental problem with the design of the associated DAC.

 

Companies that manufacture USB reclockers are either very confused by how asynchronous USB data transmission works, or they are aware and they are knowingly selling these devices regardless.  Each is pretty concerning.  

 

 

 

 

Edited January 24 by POV

[thimmy118]

I agree with @POV. My DAC has an external clock input and the manufacturer does not recommend the use of an external clock for its USB input as there is zero impact and would therefore be a waste of money. The clock will however assist with the AES and S/PDIF inputs to reduce timing issues. The manufacturer also states that its DAC does not have an internal clock but relies solely on the source to address the timing.

[Snoopy8]

Oh dear, this is starting to become yet another "digital is digital" fight (and they never give up!).    

[POV]

1 minute ago, Snoopy8 said:

Oh dear, this is starting to become yet another "digital is digital" fight (and they never give up!).    

No it isn’t that at all, no one is saying digital is digital. It’s providing balanced and informed advice to the OP which is what they came here seeking.

[POV]

I’ve never understood the desire of some to turn the forum into an echo chamber.  People come seeking advice, they get some and they can choose what they do with that, what they take onboard and what they ignore.

 

The constant meta discussion (irony noted) is tiresome in my view.

[sir sanders zingmore]

The OP asked 

23 hours ago, Almaz said:

Will spending more $$ on a higher end Streamer give me a noticeable audible difference?

 

So I really don't understand why anyone is upset if someone answers that their opinion is "no".

As far as I can see everyone has been polite and respectful. It needs to stay that way

 

[pete_mac]

4 hours ago, POV said:

 

 

USB reclockers are the hifi con that won't go away.  These are particularly interesting in that there is undoubtably, verifiably no possible way they can achieve anything, if they are being utilised with an asynchronous DAC.  By rights it should be a device that isn't subject to subjective debate, but yet still they persist and still people become convinced that they are doing something...a fascinating phenomenon.

 

The reason that reclockers cannot do anything with asynchronous USB DACs is that the DAC is asynchronous!  It means that the DAC takes no clocking signal from the USB source, and rather the data stream is buffered on the input side and then the DAC utilises it's own clocking signal from it's own clock.

 

Unfortunately, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary, people remain conviced that jitter, which is a solved issue in well designed asynchronous DACs is a problem they need to try to solve and then they get sold on these objectively pointless devices.  And for sure it's understandable if people spend circa $2k on a new toy to add to their digitaal chain they will hear a difference, report it on forums like this and the cycle of people burning their money continues.

 

In the very unlikely  circumstance, where there is a verifiable audible difference, there is only one possibility, and that is that there is a fundamental problem with the design of the associated DAC.

 

Companies that manufacture USB reclockers are either very confused by how asynchronous USB data transmission works, or they are aware and they are knowingly selling these devices regardless.  Each is pretty concerning.  

 

 

 

 

Rest assured there is no design issue with the Gieseler DACs which utilise the top-notch Amanero Combo 384 USB and clean internal power supplies. 
 

I’m the biggest audio tight-arse that I know. The reckocker was loaned to me, at no obligation. Any claims of new purchase bias are way off the mark.

 

I’ve been around the traps long enough to disregard claims of ‘it can’t’. Theory is a wonderful thing. Have a listen and decide for yourself if ‘it didn’t’, not that ‘it can’t.’
 

 

Edited January 25 by pete_mac

[muon*]

Yes, sometimes It's theory vs reality.

[rantan]

Just generally, why does anybody think that truth matters to an audiophile?

[POV]

Just now, rantan said:

Just generally, why does anybody think that truth matters to an audiophile?

 

I'm an eternal optimist.  I live in hope.

[POV]

1 hour ago, pete_mac said:

I’ve been around the traps long enough to disregard claims of ‘it can’t’. Theory is a wonderful thing.

 

Asynchronous data transmission isn't theory, it's fact and it's widely used in a whole range of different data transmission applications.  

 

If it interests you there is an easily digestible explanation here: 

 

https://www.ibm.com/docs/en/aix/7.3?topic=synchronization-asynchronous-transmission

 

1 hour ago, muon* said:

Yes, sometimes It's theory vs reality.

 

Well in this case it would be more accurately described as subjective experience vs fact.  

Edited January 25 by POV