Steff Posted January 10 Posted January 10 (edited) 9 hours ago, billstevenson said: SA-10 handles digital audio: PCM and DXD inputs are all upconverted to DSD at 11.2MHz using the proprietary MMM-Stream converter Just to clear up some confusion, the SA-10 (released around 2017) does not use that process - I don't think! - while the newer SACD 10 (2022) does. From what little I could find out it's done by a discrete onboard dac-like circuitry (no option to unselect). The manual doesn't speak to this, neither do the "white papers" related to MMM here and here. Edited January 10 by Steff
billstevenson Posted January 10 Author Posted January 10 Steff, The quote cited to you refers specifically to the SA-10 and came from the Marantz website. The proprietary circuitry is patented, but at the time of the introduction of the SA-10 that patent was still pending, so it was not emphasized in their literature. If you care to research the subject, however, you can find the circuit enthusiastically discussed by the late Ken Iahiwata, at the time of introduction. Ken was Mr. Marantz's spiritual successor, protoge and lead engineer at Marantz for decades. Moreover, if you can get a chance to play with one, preferably in your own system, it will end any doubt. While my vinyl playback equipment still generally sounds better on good recordings, the difference is small. Moreover, the vinyl setup costs multiples of even these very expensive disc spinners. Which is why in the system I am assembling for our second/summer (mostly) home, the primary input will come from the SA-10 feeding a PM-10. A VPI HW19 w/SME arm that I have had for years will provide the vinyl input. 1
Guest Moon 600i V2 Posted January 10 Posted January 10 23 hours ago, aussievintage said: But DSD is single bit. Check the sampling rate.
aussievintage Posted January 10 Posted January 10 10 minutes ago, Moon 600i V2 said: Check the sampling rate. Why? The claim I responded to was about word size, hence my comment, it is single bit. Turns out he was talking about vinyl anyway, so ...
billstevenson Posted January 10 Author Posted January 10 "Perhaps you should go hear a decent analog front end as you are totally wrong." This is a very salient observation. I have several turntables, a variety of SUTs, 3 external phono stages and I could go on. This is an artifact of years and years in the hobby. My favorite at the moment is a VPI HW40 Anniversary, SoundSmith Hyperion, Consolidated SUT, CJ ART Phono, ART 88. Without getting into speakers and amps and cables and isolation and electrical conditioning or anything related to the room etc. - in other words just the vinyl record reproduction equipment is over 5X the cost of my very expensive Luxman D-10X. And it is "a decent analog front end" and yes it generally sounds better than any digital source that I have compared it to. Generally, but not always and compared to the best Redbook, not by as much as you would expect. DSD/SACD can sound better than my analog system, but not always and not by much. I have not heard a high res stream that sounds as good as the better sounding discs or LPs played on my system. 2 1
Andythiing Posted January 10 Posted January 10 Because the secret of record manufacturing was handed to Moses at the same time as the stone tablets. And god said unto Moses “thou shall pass this knowledge on to the worthy analogue disciples- but be warned a fake prophet will arrive - he will preach salvation through digital - but he will be doing the devils work - only the true believers of analogue will inherit the sonic benefits of eternal uncompressed love” and Moses did dance and make merry for he was overcome with a sense of righteousness ps I have a huge vinyl collection 1
Godot Posted January 10 Posted January 10 On 9/1/2025 at 7:53 AM, aussievintage said: Because a big part of the good sound is the skill of the mastering engineers, and the transition to and from digital is quite innocuous, despite many peoples predjudices. There is also nothing wrong with records made from original digital recordings, again because the digital recording is good. Why didn’t this discussion stop with this? 3 1
Full Range Posted January 11 Posted January 11 On 9/1/2025 at 6:53 AM, aussievintage said: Because a big part of the good sound is the skill of the mastering engineers, and the transition to and from digital is quite innocuous, despite many peoples predjudices. I agree with this and have commented on this on many times in the past A keen ear from the mastering engineer and the speakers used on the mastering is the greatest influence for the end result irrespective of the source Having said that - no system sounds the same, so what one considers Nirvana may not be another’s Nirvana So whatever pleases the listener is OK with me as long as one enjoys the music 1
Volunteer El Tel Posted January 11 Volunteer Posted January 11 Let's calm it down. A few tit-for-tat responses have been hidden to help reduce the confrontation that had been escalating. Personal attacks and name calling can result in sanctions. Remember, we're here for fun and interesting discussion. 7 2
FR DRew Posted January 11 Posted January 11 There is clearly much to still be learned about good sound. A number of years ago I took part in a format shootout where we took a well known recording (Brubeck's time Out) and tried as many different formats as possible. DSD, SACD, Sony Legacy CD, vanilla CD, 180g high quality stereo (don't recall who re-released it for that version), vanilla stereo version, Columbia 6 eye stereo and Columbia 6 eye mono. With the exception of soundstaging, stereo image etc (derr), the 6 eye mono version utterly destroyed every other format by a country mile in dynamics, tone, realism, PRaT, sense of "being there"... Not up for argument. Every single listener was unequivocal and a number were very dedicated devotees of all things digital. Clearly there are things that engineers knew back in the 50's and 60's that have been lost along the way. 3
aussievintage Posted January 12 Posted January 12 14 minutes ago, FR DRew said: With the exception of soundstaging, stereo image etc (derr), the 6 eye mono version utterly destroyed every other format by a country mile in dynamics, tone, realism, PRaT, sense of "being there"... Not up for argument. Every single listener was unequivocal and a number were very dedicated devotees of all things digital. Clearly there are things that engineers knew back in the 50's and 60's that have been lost along the way. I presume you level matched it - as some old monos were recorded a bit hotter than the stereo versions. But anyway, I agree that there were some great sound guys back then.
billstevenson Posted January 12 Author Posted January 12 Over the course of several hours of listening today, the best sound by far, BY FAR!, came from Lester Young on Verve. All mono. 2
Bass13 Posted January 12 Posted January 12 (edited) Sorry deleted post, wrong album Edited January 12 by Bass13
POV Posted January 12 Posted January 12 On 09/01/2025 at 4:50 PM, Bass13 said: I'm a little confused with these mastering engineers, even with all their latest equipment & experience, how can they still get some/many recordings so degraded in 'Sound Quality" , regardless if its Vinyl, Cd or streaming, yes its better than it use to be, but ... SQ is a variable with many pressings/recordings imo. Most of us have moved on from the Pye 3 in 1 stereo systems "Yes my wife had one", so we can hear the difference from a great recording to a not so good one, regardless of format. Sound quality, in the way you are seeking does not really appeal to the masses that listen to their music via bluetooth earbuds, or in their cars primarily. As with all things, businesses will cater for the majority. 3
billstevenson Posted January 13 Author Posted January 13 It is always difficult to interpret another person's intent and the English language is so very inadequate at times. FWIW, my understanding of the intent of that post was that perhaps you had not heard a really good analog playback setup. Not many have. If you go to any of the shows these days, every booth has a turntable, but none are playing music, and frankly even if they were, who can make any sense out of the what it is possible to hear anyway? Strange everything, no context, totally meaningless at least for the purposes of selecting equipment. Then too, what constitutes a really good analog system is all over the map. Is it an entry level Rega, Technics or what have you with something like an Ortofon 2M Red, or does it need to be Mikey Fremer's setup or equal or something between those extremes? There is no doubt that digital is easier, more cost effective, hence more practical. 1
aussievintage Posted January 13 Posted January 13 2 minutes ago, billstevenson said: heard a really good analog playback setup. Not many have. I initially reacted to this, but as I thought about it, you may well be right. In my world, everyone has indeed heard analogue, and nearly all have heard a good system, even if they didn't own it. However, yes, the current generations, even with the vinyl resurgence, such as it is, still probably haven't heard a good system - judging by what stores sell the most of. 1
Volunteer El Tel Posted January 13 Volunteer Posted January 13 Just hidden two more posts. The next provocation, personal attack or inflammatory response that escalates unnecessarily will earn a holiday. Come on, we're better than this. 1 2
Volunteer El Tel Posted January 14 Volunteer Posted January 14 I ponder the whole premise of a "good analogue playback setup" and would offer the following thoughts for further cogitation and general scavenging: Firstly, the statements regarding mastering ring truest and loudest for me. Personally, this facet trumps pretty much everything else, providing we have a reasonably revealing amplifier and speaker setup in a modestly treated space (together with some DSP tweaks if necessary). Secondly, I enjoy the natural sound of vinyl as I feel the channel separation deficiencies (compared to digital) lead to a truer representation of what you may hear in a studio as the track is recorded; this still applies to vinyl cut from digital masters. The clinical nature of modern capture in the studio sometimes sounds too sterile to my ear when pushed straight to a digital medium/stream. Thirdly, and the real meat in this sandwich, is the TT and associated paraphernalia in itself. I hate to play on the elitist-angle and state categorically that there needs to be a minimum spend, or that only certain levels of engineering apply, but instead would rather focus on TT setup in order to get the best experience regardless of actual manufacturer/technology. Allow me to expand, consider a playback chain that remains the same from the RCA cable out of the TT (so cables, phono stage, amplification, speakers and room etc): a simple Rega P3 with a mid-level cartridge that is properly setup for tracking weight, alignment and with due consideration to the leveling of the TT itself will likely sound better than a $20k Carlos Fandango TT and cart combo that has not been properly setup. Digital is convenient, analogue requires commitment to squeeze the juice. I have heard a couple of setups that many would consider higher-end that were expected to just perform by a less-than-invested owner who paid scant attention to alignment, leveling and tracking considerations; they did not get the return they wanted. No surprises to me. For the record (pun intended), and to echo some earlier statements, my favourite sounding record in my collection is a 1967 UK mono pressing of Cream's Disraeli Gears and I am not even running a mono cart on my setup. It has a naturalness and raw warmth that presents, which for me is akin to listening live in the back room of a London pub. Pick apart, supplement or disagree to your collective hearts' content. 2
metal beat Posted January 14 Posted January 14 (edited) 3 hours ago, billstevenson said: It is always difficult to interpret another person's intent and the English language is so very inadequate at times. FWIW, my understanding of the intent of that post was that perhaps you had not heard a really good analog playback setup. Not many have. If you go to any of the shows these days, every booth has a turntable, but none are playing music, and frankly even if they were, who can make any sense out of the what it is possible to hear anyway? Strange everything, no context, totally meaningless at least for the purposes of selecting equipment. Then too, what constitutes a really good analog system is all over the map. Is it an entry level Rega, Technics or what have you with something like an Ortofon 2M Red, or does it need to be Mikey Fremer's setup or equal or something between those extremes? There is no doubt that digital is easier, more cost effective, hence more practical. Thank you. That is exactly what was meant. As a lot of us are aware, vinyl and great analog playback can sound amazingly superb with no aural limitations. Cheers Edited January 14 by metal beat
Volunteer El Tel Posted January 14 Volunteer Posted January 14 19 minutes ago, metal beat said: That is exactly what was meant. Fair. Notwithstanding the site's mantra of assuming positive intent, the fact is that brevity does not always lead to the intended inference.
metal beat Posted January 14 Posted January 14 (edited) 32 minutes ago, El Tel said: Fair. Notwithstanding the site's mantra of assuming positive intent, the fact is that brevity does not always lead to the intended inference. Unfortunately within SNA, it's becoming very hard to have a rational debate, especially when other members are inaccurate. You don't seem to be able to debate that. But, the original inaccurate comment stays? Such is life in this pc world as some people are determined to be offended Oh well. Edited January 14 by metal beat 1
Volunteer El Tel Posted January 14 Volunteer Posted January 14 9 minutes ago, metal beat said: Unfortunately within SNA, it's becoming very hard to have a debate, especially when other members are quoting absolute bs. You don't seem to be able to debate that fact. Such is life in this pc world as some people are determined to be offended In response to your succinct observation, I find myself in the position of offering what might be construed as an affirmative inclination, albeit one that must be qualified by a number of not insignificant caveats and considerations. While the absolute nature of your proposition invites a similarly concise rejoinder, the complexities of our current sociopolitical landscape demand a more nuanced and comprehensive elucidation. Therefore, without prejudice to any future deliberations or unforeseen circumstances that may arise, and with full acknowledgment of the potential for reinterpretation in light of emerging data, I am cautiously disposed to align myself with the general thrust of your proposition, insofar as it does not conflict with established protocols or jeopardise the delicate balance of our institutional framework. </SirHumphreyAppleby> 4
Hi-Fi Whipped Posted January 14 Posted January 14 33 minutes ago, El Tel said: In response to your succinct observation, I find myself in the position of offering what might be construed as an affirmative inclination, albeit one that must be qualified by a number of not insignificant caveats and considerations. While the absolute nature of your proposition invites a similarly concise rejoinder, the complexities of our current sociopolitical landscape demand a more nuanced and comprehensive elucidation. Therefore, without prejudice to any future deliberations or unforeseen circumstances that may arise, and with full acknowledgment of the potential for reinterpretation in light of emerging data, I am cautiously disposed to align myself with the general thrust of your proposition, insofar as it does not conflict with established protocols or jeopardise the delicate balance of our institutional framework. </SirHumphreyAppleby> 3
Wimbo Posted January 14 Posted January 14 On 09/01/2025 at 3:40 PM, Steff said: Because Ry Cooder's Bop Til you Drop is a cracking album and mastered by professionals who respect SQ. Ditto for many of Zappa's albums. These are equally good on CD. I've got a few Ry Cooder Albums and Bop Til you Drop is the worst sounding of the lot.
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