5.2.4 or 7.2.2 in very compromised space

[Round42]

I have built a new house with a semi-dedicated media room. I say semi-dedicated because that's all it will really be used for, however it's not fully blacked out during the day (even with blockout and sheer blinds), the ceiling is white, left and right walls are glass and the rear wall is a mixture of cupboards and a corridor each side.

 

I was extrememly limited with where I could put non-front speakers, like rears, surrounds, heights, etc given ceiling construction with trusses and aluminium battens that the plasterboard is mounted to.

 

I went with SIX in-ceiling speakers, evenly spaced and put them where I could in relation to the MLP. As I said, LOTS of compromise.

 

The in-ceiling speakers are a mix of down-firing and angled/directional (Paradigm Elite E80-R v2 and E80-A v2).

 

 

I have an accoustically transparent screen and large fronts/centre speakers with no limits on placement.

 

However I do not have space for stand-mounted speakers at ear level given where cupboards are and where people need to walk through the space.

 

Wall mount is also out as it's all glass either side with blinds, and the room is not symetrical given a void for a stair case.

 

Speaker layout is below - and these are already installed in the ceiling however the directional ones can be rotated as necesssary. I did the rears firing forward as if it was going to be a 7.2.2 setup (as left and right rears).

 

All measurements are in millimetres. and the couch is just what the architect put on his drawing so take with a small grain of salt.

 

 

The photos look squashed - the width between the windows and the low wall is actually just over 5 metres (about 17 feet) wide.

 

The the depth from the front wall to the rear cupboards is just over 6 metres (about 20 feet).

 

 

 

 

Unfortunately, it is what it is, and direction is the only thing I have control over - not height or distance placement.

 

Based on my severe constraints, a wife I have to share the space with, and I have what I have (so please be gentle wth no suggestions of "it would be better if you did speakers at ear level" or "you should have placed the ceiling speakers somewhere else".. we all have compromises even in purpose-built home theatres!) any suggestions on what layout should I juse? 5.2.4 or 7.2.2?

 

Getting down to it - my question is am I better off having the rears and heights as the .4 in a 5.2.4 setup, or just the (blue) heights as atmos and leaving the orange ones as the rears and surrounds in a 7.2.2 setup?

 

Or perhaps something else? I'll be running these off an Anthem AVM60 if that helps.

 

I've read a lot of mixed recommendations for non-perfect rooms, and the Dolby guides aren't that helpful in my instance.

 

I mean if Dolby can recommend upfiring speakers bouncing of the ceiling, then I don't get why in-ceiling directional speakers are all that bad - and better than no speakers!

 

[Guest]

Suggest 5.2.4 rather than 7.2.2 because Atmos movies comes across better. 

 

As you have said, it is what it is. Use the 2 nearest to the back as the rears and the other 4 as the Atmos speakers.  And point the  speakers towards the sofa.  The end result should be ok for movies (and compromised for multi channel music, but not sure if this is important?).

 

 

[RCADees]

I don't think your space is as bad. Yes it has a number of compromises but overall it could be much worse.

12 minutes ago, Snoopy8 said:

Suggest 5.2.4 rather than 7.2.2

I also suggest that you have a 5.2.4 configuration.

Although you have all of the surround and Atmos speakers in ceiling, the rears will not have sufficient separation from the horizontal field and therefore, it may give you a better result using the rears as Atmos. In addition to the fact that the rear surrounds are not as prominent in some movies (depending on the mixing of course).

 

On the other hand, you have the ability to simply change configurations once you have the set up installed and see what works best in your environment. It would simply be a matter of swapping cables in the back of the amp and then turning around those in ceilings to angle them differently. Just make sure that you keep those R-L surrounds as directed as possible to the seating position, just like the center Atmos too.

 

Good idea to also have good thick curtains (if wife allows) covering all of those windows.

 

[Round42]

1 hour ago, Snoopy8 said:

And point the  speakers towards the sofa.  The end result should be ok for movies (and compromised for multi channel music, but not sure if this is important?).

 

 

Thanks! Yeah, I never do multichannel music. I’m old-school stereo when it comes to music or just ambient outside from the eaves.

 

For the rear speakers, I current have them firing directly towards the front, not angled towards

the seating area. Should I angle them in or leave as is? 

[Round42]

1 hour ago, RCADees said:

It would simply be a matter of swapping cables in the back of the amp and then turning around those in ceilings to angle them differently.

 

Good idea to also have good thick curtains (if wife allows) covering all of those windows.

 

The windows are double glazed, however not sure if that changes reflection or absorption compared to single glazed. I have motorised sheers that are actually some kind of thick woven/perforated plastic and then another set of blockout blinds which are a fairly thick material. 
 

I’ll be installing a full length batten wall behind the front speakers and screen, which has an acoustic felt backing that I’m hoping will help to absorb some of the reflected sound and the carpet is very thick and soft wool.

 

When testing between the two setups, should I change the way the rears are directed in either case? They’re perpendicularly straight towards the front as per other recommendations I saw from Dolby however I cannot remember if that was Atmos specific or simply generic surrounds.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Round42 said:

For the rear speakers, I current have them firing directly towards the front, not angled towards the seating area. Should I angle them in or leave as is? 

Angle them towards the sitting area.  These days, every speaker is a discrete channel and you want to hear the effects from the rear.

[RCADees]

22 hours ago, Round42 said:

set of blockout blinds which are a fairly thick material. 

It looks like you are well prepared to handle high/mid frequencies so acoustically should be more than acceptable.

And the woven/perforated plastic may even work as a diffuser too.

 

I also have double glazed windows but I don't think that makes much of a difference here as you are trying to manage reflections from the glass back into the room and the curtains will do this pretty well. Double glaze works well to suppress noise coming from inside/outside in and out of the room.

I have a partly divided kitchen sitting next to the Home Theatre area and this does present some reflections, which I only notice when doing the calibration. However, they are very lightly perceived because the rest of the room has curtains and a thick rug covering the entire listening area.

I think Audyssey manages this pretty well somehow as it does not detract whatsoever from watching a movie even at very loud volumes. We watched Terminator 2 yesterday afternoon and now that I think about it just sounded absolutely right.

 

Oh and I also have white  walls, yes it is not a perfect room, but I don't think this is a big deal or has a noticeable detrimental effect to the image. My screen is set about 20cm from the front wall so there is less glare on the sides.

I had my projector professionally calibrated and the white walls don't really affect the outcome on the image you see. It has more to do with the white glare you notice around the screen. But once again, this is a small compromise I feel in a shared lounge situation.

 

23 hours ago, Round42 said:

should I change the way the rears are directed in either case?

 

Yes I also agree with Snoopy8 above, angle them directly towards the sitting area.

If using as rear surrounds perhaps try to open them up slightly around the main position (meaning when you are sitting with a couple of people on each side of you) of the sitting area and try.

Then direct them laser straight towards the main position (when you are sitting on your own). Either way, both recommendations stand for use as rear surrounds or Atmos, direct them towards position 1.

 

To get the angle correctly or to be able to see which direction the cone is directed towards, I use one of these, remove the grill and hold it to the speaker while doing the adjustment, then you can turn the speaker and see where the red dot lands. Handy little things.

 

 

Something like this:

 

Sorry about my poor drawing. You get the idea.

 

 

[Round42]

Thanks for the words of encouragement and suggestions. Certainly all very helpful. People in the avsforum threads get pretty nasty about shared spaces with compromise, so responses to my situation here have been a breath of fresh air compared to others I’ve read through!

[Guest]

42 minutes ago, Round42 said:

... get pretty nasty about shared spaces ...

It was no different here years ago. I have always had a shared space and was given grief by the purists with dedicated rooms.  Things have changed thankfully...

 

Note that having Anthem Genesis will help compensate for your not ideal ceiling speakers and shared space.  

[betty boop]

On 28/12/2024 at 9:25 AM, Round42 said:

Getting down to it - my question is am I better off having the rears and heights as the .4 in a 5.2.4 setup, or just the (blue) heights as atmos and leaving the orange ones as the rears and surrounds in a 7.2.2 setup?

hi i am late to this thread.. trust me when I say i am all about doing best with every day spaces...nd a lot can be achieved in them even if not a dedicated space.. 

 

however 

 

 i am really troubled by the above quote..

 

are all these speakers in the ceiling .. ie the blue and orange speakers are all in the ceiling ? 

 

the reason i am trouble is ... for heights to work they need some differential in height from the surrounds ? ie whether going 5.2.4 or 7.2.2 the side and rears need to have a couple of foot differential atleast from height speakers ... if all these are all on the same plane ? ie in the ceiling you wont actually have any height speakers as such ? as all surrounds and heights are all in the ceiling ?

 

my suggestion... and i honestly think you can achieve a pretty good result in this space ...

 

I would actually go 7.2.2 and i think you can do it easily and to pretty good result in your room...

 

i would buy some paradigm millennia ones.. if you are using paradigms all around ...

 

these come with stands to mount these speakers to things and rotate the speakers around ...

 

you can mount one set on the back wall ... these will be rears...

 

one set either side of couch one on the window frame i see a suitable solid section there .. other directly opposite on on that half wall thing that runs along side of the room.

 

then put your 4 heights in the ceiling and straddling your couch ie two one step forward.. two one step behind .. ie between couch and back wall

 

this will work and will work to great end result !

 

you have the room to do this and its possible.  this will put your surrounds at ear height or there about... and heights in ceiling so can work as height speakers and with enough height differential from your surrounds and rest of your bed speakers... 

 

see the adjusted drawing attached.. orange are your surrounds mounted around ear height or thereabouts... the blue are your in ceiling heights... 

 

couch moved forward as should be to give your speakers some room to breathe   and it will accomodate 7.2.2 

 

adjusted.pdf

Edited December 29, 2024 by betty boop

[Round42]

13 hours ago, RCADees said:

It looks like you are well prepared to handle high/mid frequencies so acoustically should be more than acceptable.

And the woven/perforated plastic may even work as a diffuser too.

 

I also have double glazed windows but I don't think that makes much of a difference here as you are trying to manage reflections from the glass back into the room and the curtains will do this pretty well. Double glaze works well to suppress noise coming from inside/outside in and out of the room.

I have a partly divided kitchen sitting next to the Home Theatre area and this does present some reflections, which I only notice when doing the calibration. However, they are very lightly perceived because the rest of the room has curtains and a thick rug covering the entire listening area.

I think Audyssey manages this pretty well somehow as it does not detract whatsoever from watching a movie even at very loud volumes. We watched Terminator 2 yesterday afternoon and now that I think about it just sounded absolutely right.

 

Oh and I also have white  walls, yes it is not a perfect room, but I don't think this is a big deal or has a noticeable detrimental effect to the image. My screen is set about 20cm from the front wall so there is less glare on the sides.

I had my projector professionally calibrated and the white walls don't really affect the outcome on the image you see. It has more to do with the white glare you notice around the screen. But once again, this is a small compromise I feel in a shared lounge situation.

 

 

Yes I also agree with Snoopy8 above, angle them directly towards the sitting area.

If using as rear surrounds perhaps try to open them up slightly around the main position (meaning when you are sitting with a couple of people on each side of you) of the sitting area and try.

Then direct them laser straight towards the main position (when you are sitting on your own). Either way, both recommendations stand for use as rear surrounds or Atmos, direct them towards position 1.

 

To get the angle correctly or to be able to see which direction the cone is directed towards, I use one of these, remove the grill and hold it to the speaker while doing the adjustment, then you can turn the speaker and see where the red dot lands. Handy little things.

 

 

Something like this:

 

Sorry about my poor drawing. You get the idea.

 

 

 

13 minutes ago, betty boop said:

hi i am late to this thread.. trust me when I say i am all about doing best with every day spaces...nd a lot can be achieved in them even if not a dedicated space.. 

 

however 

 

 i am really troubled by the above quote..

 

are all these speakers in the ceiling .. ie the blue and orange speakers are all in the ceiling ? 

 

the reason i am trouble is ... for heights to work they need some differential in height from the surrounds ? ie whether going 5.2.4 or 7.2.2 the side and rears need to have a couple of foot differential atleast from height speakers ... if all these are all on the same plane ? ie in the ceiling you wont actually have any height speakers as such ? as all surrounds and heights are all in the ceiling ?

 

my suggestion... and i honestly think you can achieve a pretty good result in this space ...

 

I would actually go 7.2.2 and i think you can do it easily and to pretty good result in your room...

 

i would buy some paradigm millennia ones.. if you are using paradigms all around ...

 

these come with stands to mount these speakers to things and rotate the speakers around ...

 

you can mount one set on the back wall ... these will be rears...

 

one set either side of couch one on the window frame i see a suitable solid section there .. other directly opposite on on that half wall thing that runs along side of the room.

 

then put your 4 heights in the ceiling and straddling your couch ie two one step forward.. two one step behind .. ie between couch and back wall

 

this will work and will work to great end result !

 

you have the room to do this and its possible.  this will put your surrounds at ear height or there about... and heights in ceiling so can work as height speakers and with enough height differential from your surrounds and rest of your bed speakers... 

 

adjusted.pdf 654.59 kB · 3 downloads

I don’t have the room to have stand mount speakers. By the time I have five very narrow modular couch chairs across the space (for the full family) or four with one removed, there is little space to walk either side of the couch to get to the main bedroom, bathroom etc that sits beyond the cupboards at the rear of the room.

 

I can’t mount to the cupboards. They are doors. Higher up above those doors in the centre is where the projector is (motorised lift panel) and aircon ducts either side. Even if I could mount above the cupboard doors it would be essentially almost at ceiling height anyway.

 

Room asthetics prevent mounting anything on the sides, and impossible to get speaker cable to those locations. And one set of windows is way further away above a void and staircase.
 

Please refer back to the photos, not just the drawings to get an idea of the space. I’m seriously limited to in-ceiling for all non-front speakers.

 

the left and right surrounds are made to be directionally angled down to the listening position. They are aiming at your ears from the sides.

 

Samw with the rears. It’s only the height speakers that radiate directly towards the floor, perpendicular to the ceiling.

 

the ceiling speakers I have carefully chosen along with the AV store (largest one in australia) are made specifically for this purpose.

 

Including main front L/R, centre, two subs and six ceiling speakers I have a total of 11 speakers. Hence the choice of either 5.2.4 or 7.2.2. 
 

liken said, it is what it is. I honestly don’t have room for stand mount speakers at ear level without them being in the way for the 95% of the time the space isn’t being used as a theatre and for the 5% of the time it is either.

 

This is all exactly why I provided photos of the space and why I went to the trouble of saying in the OP:

 

Based on my severe constraints, a wife I have to share the space with, and I have what I have (so please be gentle with no suggestions of "it would be better if you did speakers at ear level".

[betty boop]

6 hours ago, Round42 said:

I don’t have the room to have stand mount speakers. By the time I have five very narrow modular couch chairs across the space (for the full family) or four with one removed, there is little space to walk either side of the couch to get to the main bedroom, bathroom etc that sits beyond the cupboards at the rear of the room.

hi round 42, i didnt specifically suggest stand mount speakers for this reason... what i suggested is the paradigm one millennia...

 

I dont know if looked at them but below is what they look like.... i know folks have used these and for specific reason you can literally mount them to anything and they swivel to angle... i looked specifically at your drawing and if click on the pdf adjusted pdf i posted, will see i worked with the 4 seats you showed and positioned not floor standards but the millennia positioned at around ear height. as a note surrounds can be mounted a tad higher than ear height upto about 2 foot higher if need be... they wont impinge on your space .. i am speaking from my own experience here in this case...

 

6 hours ago, Round42 said:

I can’t mount to the cupboards. They are doors. Higher up above those doors in the centre is where the projector is (motorised lift panel) and aircon ducts either side. Even if I could mount above the cupboard doors it would be essentially almost at ceiling height anyway.

dont restrict your thinking that you cant mount to the doors.. why not ? the millennia in nature as a speaker  will attach to literally anything ..  you can even mount them to the side of the cupboard if want. the white sections (yes i have looked at the pictures... yes you can mount them to the sides of the cupboards and still walk past them if you dont want to mount to doors ... 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

6 hours ago, Round42 said:

Room asthetics prevent mounting anything on the sides, and impossible to get speaker cable to those locations. And one set of windows is way further away above a void and staircase.

 

you have to start to think out side the square and not limit yourself with thinking... have a look at the adjusted rear view of  photo you posted.... 

 

adjusted rear view.pdf

 

its possible... believe me ..where there is a will there is a way... and as far as cabling .. its absolutely possible. i have done it.. you use simple conduit.. you get very aesthetically pleasing types these days.. you wouldn't even notice its there...

 

I am not suggesting you mount anything on the far side away from the void and staircase.. instead use the small wall along side the void and staircase....

 

6 hours ago, Round42 said:

Please refer back to the photos, not just the drawings to get an idea of the space. I’m seriously limited to in-ceiling for all non-front speakers.

actually .. you are not totally limited to inciting speakers for non fronts.. you actually have options ...very realistic options can utilise... go have a look at the paradigm millennia.. many folks have used these because of how flexible, compact and very good and versatile speakers they are and can work in your scenario...get them in white and will blend into your scenario very well. 

 

6 hours ago, Round42 said:

Samw with the rears. It’s only the height speakers that radiate directly towards the floor, perpendicular to the ceiling.

 

the ceiling speakers I have carefully chosen along with the AV store (largest one in australia) are made specifically for this purpose.

 

ok this is where the problem is and i dont think you get it .. for height speakers to work as heights ... vs your bed of speakers including your surrounds ... they need a height differential .. eg mounted some 2 foot or so above your surrounds ... otherwise they are not heights ? because everything is on the same plane.. i hope you understand this ? 

 

the speakers you have chosen are ones that are angled .. and reason they are is if you mount them at quite a distance they still point at you .. but they dont give you a height differential you need for heights vs surrounds for your heights to work as heights

 

6 hours ago, Round42 said:

Including main front L/R, centre, two subs and six ceiling speakers I have a total of 11 speakers. Hence the choice of either 5.2.4 or 7.2.2. 

you cna absolutely get a 5.2.4 or 7.2.2 system in your setup... however the heights need a height differential to work as heights .. or else its better to put the surrounds in as a 5.2 or 7.2 system... forget about heights... to get heights you actually need heights .. and the differential .. or just dont do it.. heaps and heaps of folks end up with very decent systems with surrounds in ceiling ..but then you forget about heights and just go with a conventions surround setup with side and rears in ceiling. as you have done just not working as heights...

 

6 hours ago, Round42 said:

iken said, it is what it is. I honestly don’t have room for stand mount speakers at ear level without them being in the way for the 95% of the time the space isn’t being used as a theatre and for the 5% of the time it is either.

you actually have the absolute opposite scenario where you are putting your surrounds into ceiling and your heights into ceiling ...when you cant put all those at the same height ? i hope can appreciate this .. the system wont be able to create a sound field and differntiate from your surrounds and heights because there is no differential of height ?

 

I see you have already mounted the speakers in the ceiling .. is this what is limiting your thinking ? its never too late.. even if you have mounted your surrounds in the ceiling you can relocate these.. holes in plaster are easily fixed.. to point you wouldn't even know they were ever made...

 

if its aesthetics .. that worries you .. there are quite a few very ascetically please speakers eg the millennia which i have seen many folk use just in your scenario and are compact and blend in very well. cable runs leave that to sparkies and these guys do this day in day out... if you want unobtrusive cabling it can be done..i have seen it done.. have done it myself ....

 

6 hours ago, Round42 said:

This is all exactly why I provided photos of the space and why I went to the trouble of saying in the OP:

 

Based on my severe constraints, a wife I have to share the space with, and I have what I have (so please be gentle with no suggestions of "it would be better if you did speakers at ear level".

this is the thing.. i think you are missing the point that for height speakers and for height speakers to work you need a height differential.. as i have said the surrounds dont even hav to be exactly at speaker height as long as there is some 3 foot of height between surrounds and heights (in my experience and even in my very own setup) you will find heights will work.

 

its not a case of it will be better. its whats necessary for heights to work as heights.. not case of being gentle a case of being realistic..

 

if you cant or dont want to do heights dont do heights.. plenty of people have very decent systems without heights..in this case id suggest move your surrounds to where should be.. so can have heights where they are .. or skip heights all together ... as surrounds as a bed are more important... 

 

and yep i have looked at all your info and carefully, not just the pictures but the drawing as well. 

 

 

 

 

 

[betty boop]

incase struggling to open the adjusted pdfs i posted below are they as screen shots.. the orange highlights is where id suggest you pop your surrounds...

 

 

the blue highlights are where i would have your heights which just straddle your couch seating as shown below, 

 

[Round42]

 

52 minutes ago, betty boop said:

incase struggling to open the adjusted pdfs i posted below are they as screen shots.. the orange highlights is where id suggest you pop your surrounds...

 

 

the blue highlights are where i would have your heights which just straddle your couch seating as shown below, 

 

Thanks for your advice, concerns and all the effort to get me to understand.

 

ill provide a whole lot more information and background before summarising, since you have gone to so much trouble explaining (which I was trying to avoid anyone “redesigning” feom

the outset).

 

1. The entire house is architectural. It’s not like anything else around here.’there is an underlying concept of everything being hidden and simplified. Examples include outside,

all down pipes are concealed in the brick cavities, with box gutters. On the roofs, from the elevated road, it’s impossible to see skylights, solar panels, and even the TV antenna. We have four metre door openings with fly screens concealed in the door jams. The fridge and freezer doors are behind tall kitchen cupboards with no handles - you gently press against the doors and the drives open with servo drives. You knock on the dishwasher to open it. The ovens have buttons to open the handleless doors. Every room as aircon but the thermostat controls are in the wardrobes to prevent wall acne. Everything is controlled with control4 keypads and touchscreens so that aren’t other controls on the walls for skylights, slab heating, towel rails etc. The projector screen is built into the ceiling and the projector behind a motorised door. The rack of gear is actually in that back theatre cabinetry with rear access through a batten door in the toilet (see images). Everything that can be tucked away out of sight.

the list goes on.

 

So. Aesthetically, I CAN’T mount speakers as you have suggested, or I would have already done it. I’ve been doing 5.1 or 5.2 home theatre since I got my first laserdisc player in 1990, and I totally understand 5.x design. But I’m new to height, as building this house has given me a space for a theatre that isn’t a converted bedroom or a shared loungeroom space where I have a little more control.

 

You could say it’s dedicated to being a theatre space, but it’s also what you have to walk through to get to the other two thirds of the cantilevered box upstairs (main bedroom, ensuite and walk in robe). And it’s got the stair case and void taking up a lot of realestate. The same room at the other end upstairs doesn’t have those limitations (just shorter back from to back) and would have been 1000 times a better space, where I could have even painted the walls and ceilings black and done thick curtains and all the other things I have had to compromise on. BUT it’s our bedroom, and we can’t have an open walkthrough bedroom!

 

For aesthetics, as well as taking house design into account (simple is NOT easy), I also need to take my wife into account and what she’s comfortable with.

 

And as I already explained, once we have five narrow couch chairs side-by-side across the room, you would be sitting on a speaker or it would be pressed against your ear hole. And no way to walk around the couches.

 

the ceiling speakers I’ve managed to fit are there because that’s where they fit. Trusses and battens can’t be moved, and I’ve already cut into some of the metal plasterboard support battens to get the speakers to physically fit, and I’m not sure if you’re aware just how high the magnet sticks out on an angled in-ceiling speaker…. But while you may get it between to trusses you may not be able to rotate it without the magnet fouling on the truss timber.

 

That’s why I said from the very first post, IT IS WHAT IT IS.

 

its ALL compromise.

 

Now for my summation.

 

i have six ceiling speakers. They are wired up, tested, amped and usable. 
 

I’ve definitely read plenty of what I’d call “purists” over on avsforum talking about height differential and layers and ear level and all the rest for x.x.2 and x.x.4 setups, but the entire point of this post is: Is there a middle ground based on what I have, that I cannot change for a myriad of reasons.

 

Are you being a purist saying to just not use the two height speakers in the centre? Or are you warning me that it will sound way worse if I do?

 

The way I figure it, if I do 5.2 or 7.2, which we all know will work with these directional speakers, why would adding heights directly above the listening position not provide a little more directional overhead information on those dedicated channels?

 

Are my options absolutely absolute, being only 5.2 or 7.2? And compromiselt adding heights above the listening position is absolutely not an option?
 

And this question goes out to everyone, not just you. It’s my OP question. .It’s my burning question.

 

 

. 

[RCADees]

1 hour ago, Round42 said:

The entire house is architectural. It’s not like anything else around here.’there is an underlying concept of everything being hidden and simplified.

 

I do understand what Betty Boop is suggesting in order to achieve best practice.

A 5.2 or a 7.2 configuration relies on the horizonal plane. For a 5.2.4 or 7.2.2 the Atmos speakers rely on being high enough to separate from the horizontal plane. But this is what is ideal on paper.

 

I also perfectly understand what you are going through. You have a beautiful home with a tremendous investment of time and more, cost, wife, architect involved etc and have all to live with each other in harmony.

Those are some beautiful finishes too. Having speakers poking their faces around does not look pretty.

 

We architecturally renovated our home as well and I was lucky to be able to set up a 5.1 and now I have  a 5.1.2 in the shared main lounge room.

But the home theatre was never going to be part of the brief to the architect. I always had in mind that I had to work with the main plans we had. It was even a battle to set up a 3x2.5m room for Stereo only somewhere in the house.

 

I was able to install L-R surrounds in wall speakers and I was lucky my partner went with it, and that I had the space to do it. But otherwise I would have probably gone for a 3.1.2 configuration.

 

To improve the Home Theatre configuration in the lounge room I have gone over and over plans to install the rear surrounds for a 7.1.2. To do this I would have to somehow have the rears on stands, standing in front of the glass windows behind the couch. But the dinning table is also there, it will look very ugly indeed, a mess to walk around and most likely someone will walk past and knock down one of those speakers.

Sure, if I was still living in a share house with all the mess that comes with it in a rental property, probably would be the best solution, but it is simply not going to happen. Let alone adding more speakers to the ceiling.

 

I think that you will be fine living with the compromise you have so far.

Not to dismiss what Betty Boop advice was, but follow the advice we gave you earlier to work with what you have. Don't get stressed. I have the feeling that you will be more than happy with the results.

The amp will do some heavy lifting too.

 

Once you invite your family over to admire your beautiful house and the screen drops and all of you are enjoying a movie they will all celebrate how good your set up is.

 

Happy wife, happy life.

 

Let us know how you go.

[Round42]

31 minutes ago, RCADees said:

I do understand what Betty Boop is suggesting in order to achieve best practice.

A 5.2 or a 7.2 configuration relies on the horizonal plane. For a 5.2.4 or 7.2.2 the Atmos speakers rely on being high enough to separate from the horizontal plane. But this is what is ideal on paper.

Exactly this! I did use the words “very compromised space” in the post title.

I understand what’s best practice —well I TRY to as even though the Dolby guides (https://www.dolby.com/about/support/guide/speaker-setup-guides) show 33(!!!!) different Atmos configurations — they show down firing speakers in a 3D image but not in the more detailed 2D one with explanatory wording As seen in these example images:

 

And for the above, they don’t explain the difference even though they both still mention Atmos in the smaller print but only in one heading.

 

Here’s what I mean:

 

 

in that image I count 8 speakers including the sub. But 5+1+4 adds up to 10. And in the explanatory wording below the image it only talks about 8 speakers as well. No mention of heights.

 

Plus, WTF is this and how would this sound better than my proposed install given that every pen of the .4 speakers are firing at the ceiling and reflecting back??

 

 

Given people don Atmos with wall and ceiling bouncing, sound bars (!!) etc I was trying to ascertain if it’s all or nothing. Absolutely no middle ground like Betty Boop and all the purists on AVS say. 

 

eg Would compromising by including heights muddy the sound, create confusion, or sound just plain awful?

 

Here’s hoping it will be all good. The biggest takeaway I have from this discussion is to have the rears directed at MLP rather than firing forward (which was Dolby’s recommendation). 
 

And I feel your pain with what you’ve been through too. Having to compromise is part of life. I guess is my compromise to just not connect my x.x.2 speakers at all?

[betty boop]

not a purist... a realist here

 

just go 7.2

 

you dont have a height differential to make your height speakers heights....so dont try to do that ...as they cant be wont be. 

 

theres nothing wrong with 7.2 and can be done to superb results  you will still get fly overs ... things moving around at height as your surrounds are there. your rear stage will be raised because thats where your surrounds are .. but that is what it is ... 

 

yes life is full of compromises ... plenty in my room.. been working with them for couple of decades in my room to do best i can in it. as prior renting and such ....i havent visited one room in many i have visited that didnt have some sort of compromise or other.

20 minutes ago, Round42 said:

Given people don Atmos with wall and ceiling bouncing, sound bars (!!) etc I was trying to ascertain if it’s all or nothing. Absolutely no middle ground like Betty Boop and all the purists on AVS say. 

 

eg Would compromising by including heights muddy the sound, create confusion, or sound just plain awful?

 

Here’s hoping it will be all good. The biggest takeaway I have from this discussion is to have the rears directed at MLP rather than firing forward (which was Dolby’s recommendation). 
 

And I feel your pain with what you’ve been through too. Having to compromise is part of life. I guess is my compromise to just not connect my x.x.2 speakers at all?

 

what that is .. is top firing modules, or speakers with top firing speakers ... yes they exist for folks that cant ceiling mount.. but can do floor standing speakers...

 

the bouncing sound around place is pretty hit and miss ... it requires ceiling and sound bouncing off angles to end up in your ears somehow .. in my experience of exploring as much 3D audio as i could .. thats what i worked out it doesnt really work,

 

things like sounds bars trying to fire sound around room dont actually work either .. not when you have heard what 3D audio is trying to achieve with height speakers....

 

 

[RCADees]

1 hour ago, Round42 said:

Exactly this! I did use the words “very compromised space” in the post title.

I understand what’s best practice —well I TRY to as even though the Dolby guides (https://www.dolby.com/about/support/guide/speaker-setup-guides) show 33(!!!!) different Atmos configurations — they show down firing speakers in a 3D image but not in the more detailed 2D one with explanatory wording As seen in these example images:

 

And for the above, they don’t explain the difference even though they both still mention Atmos in the smaller print but only in one heading.

 

Here’s what I mean:

 

 

in that image I count 8 speakers including the sub. But 5+1+4 adds up to 10. And in the explanatory wording below the image it only talks about 8 speakers as well. No mention of heights.

 

Plus, WTF is this and how would this sound better than my proposed install given that every pen of the .4 speakers are firing at the ceiling and reflecting back??

 

 

Given people don Atmos with wall and ceiling bouncing, sound bars (!!) etc I was trying to ascertain if it’s all or nothing. Absolutely no middle ground like Betty Boop and all the purists on AVS say. 

 

eg Would compromising by including heights muddy the sound, create confusion, or sound just plain awful?

 

Here’s hoping it will be all good. The biggest takeaway I have from this discussion is to have the rears directed at MLP rather than firing forward (which was Dolby’s recommendation). 
 

And I feel your pain with what you’ve been through too. Having to compromise is part of life. I guess is my compromise to just not connect my x.x.2 speakers at all?

 

 

You already have the 6 Atmos speakers as they are part of your set up as it is. Not in the exact position as the diagram above, but close. Don't over complicate it.

 

The issue is that in your situation two of those in ceiling speakers you have are going to be used for L-R Surrounds which are part of the horizontal plane for a 5 or a 7 configuration. In the diagram are on stands, in your case they will be angled directed towards the MLP as you explained.

 

Continue with the plan to use the in ceiling R-L Surrounds and from there have a play with the rest (possibly leaving as Atmos).

The compromise is about using a good enough combination of what you already have in the ceiling to create a good effect.

In my case as I mentioned (5.1.2), I don't have rear surrounds, but I get a "bubble" of sound above the MLP and sides, which simply joins nicely with the three front speakers.

I don't miss the rear surrounds. Remember that you are getting the front L-C-R correct and this is the most important. The rest of speakers envelops in one way or another, it all depends on the movie mix as well. 

Sure, getting the horizontal plane correct if possible must be achieved, but don't sweat over it I think it will work nicely.

 

Humans are in fact very bad at localising above our heads sounds (Atmos). We need visual clues to try to work out where the sounds is coming from, we are really bad at it. This is why you should test and try to work out what sounds better with what you have.

This is also why when we are out and about, we are so bad at working out the location of where a plane is flying over our heads, and we keep turning our heads looking for it!

 

[Guest]

@Round42, as you have said, your ceiling speakers are fixed and it is what it is. You should now put aside "best practice" theory and try things in your room.

 

As @RCADees mentioned earlier, you can experiment with various configs by changing the cabling to either 5.2.4, 3.2.6, 7.2.2 etc and rerun ARC Genesis.  You will quickly discover what works best in your room.

[Round42]

52 minutes ago, Snoopy8 said:

As @RCADees mentioned earlier, you can experiment with various configs by changing the cabling to either 5.2.4, 3.2.6, 7.2.2 etc and rerun ARC Genesis.  You will quickly discover what works best in your room.

Hmm. My processor has surround L/R, back L/R and two sets of height L/R. So I guess the options I have are 5.2, 5.2.4, 3.2.4 and 7.2.2. Easy enough to swap cables around and do some listening. With the projector screen about to go up I’ll shortly be doing a LOT of watching anyway! No complaints from me about that!!

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Round42 said:

Hmm. My processor has surround L/R, back L/R and two sets of height L/R. So I guess the options I have are 5.2, 5.2.4, 3.2.4 and 7.2.2. Easy enough to swap cables around and do some listening. With the projector screen about to go up I’ll shortly be doing a LOT of watching anyway! No complaints from me about that!!

I believe the AVM60 can do 7.2.4, but it has been a long time since I last played with it.  It could be a combination of setup settings and ARC Genesis?

[Round42]

1 hour ago, Snoopy8 said:

I believe the AVM60 can do 7.2.4, but it has been a long time since I last played with it.  It could be a combination of setup settings and ARC Genesis?

Yep, can do 7.2.4 but not anything .6. Keen to move to an AVM70 later on but have completely broken the bank on my project after losing a lot of money to The Lifestyle Store collapse earlier this year.

[Guest]

6 hours ago, Round42 said:

Yep, can do 7.2.4 but not anything .6. Keen to move to an AVM70 later on but have completely broken the bank on my project after losing a lot of money to The Lifestyle Store collapse earlier this year.

Yes, the AVM 70 can do .6 but not sure whether .6 will improve things?  And sorry to hear that you got caught in the Lifestyle Store collapse.

[Round42]

2 hours ago, Snoopy8 said:

And sorry to hear that you got caught in the Lifestyle Store collapse.

Thanks. It was so crap. I lost a lot as an unsecured creditor, as they made me pay in full for a custom in-ceiling screen innovations screen in February 2023, with an expected three month lead time. I was ready to install in November 2023 and it still hadn’t turned up, which turned into monthly and then weekly chasing until they finally confirmed it was in country a the day after their forced closure was in the news — I wanted to know if it had been loaded into a truck with all the other gear that was whisked away.  Also paid 90% for a Sony VPL-XW5000, just sitting on the last $500 so it could be released as soon as I was ready for it so as not to have warranty wasting away. All gone. Almost $30K!

[RCADees]

2 hours ago, Round42 said:

Thanks. It was so crap. I lost a lot as an unsecured creditor, as they made me pay in full for a custom in-ceiling screen innovations screen in February 2023, with an expected three month lead time. I was ready to install in November 2023 and it still hadn’t turned up, which turned into monthly and then weekly chasing until they finally confirmed it was in country a the day after their forced closure was in the news — I wanted to know if it had been loaded into a truck with all the other gear that was whisked away.  Also paid 90% for a Sony VPL-XW5000, just sitting on the last $500 so it could be released as soon as I was ready for it so as not to have warranty wasting away. All gone. Almost $30K!

 

Horrible to say the least. I am sorry as well that you have been caught in that mess. That certainly is a lot on money!

But it is time now to start playing with your system and have fun!

 

Let us know at some point how you go with the different configurations and what you find that works best. I am curious to know what you end up with and what your thoughts are.

 

One thing I thought of last night was that this hobby is an evolving one. 

So if you get the itch and do want to play with the horizontal level, one not very obtrusive thing you may want to consider in the future is some sort of very small (1.2m high max?) narrow shelfs with sliding doors, placed on each side of the couch, if they fit, in order to accommodate some L-R surround speakers if need be. Then the speakers would be concealed.

 

You could even get a pair of basic any name speakers and placed them at that location on temporary stands etc just to try out and see if you are missing much, or find that it may not be worth it anyway.