Wondered what’s inside a £25K phono stage?

[Almaz]

It would be fair to say that I’m not very happy with the direction and tone this tread has taken towards the Tom Evans phono preamplifier. What ever happened to the Aussie way “ don’t knock it till you try it “  How many of you on this thread have actually heard this phono preamplifier in person??

That being the case how can there be so much  criticism on the build quality and complexity, and quality of components used to build such a phono preamplifier.

Sure I have no doubt that there are some very talented electrical engineers among the Stereonet clan, but this unfair ridicule of a component is totally unnecessary.

Have a Merry Christmas and a happy New year.

John.

[aussievintage]

56 minutes ago, Almaz said:

 How many of you on this thread have actually heard this phono preamplifier in person??

That being the case how can there be so much  criticism on the build quality and complexity, and quality of components used to build such a phono preamplifier.

 

Your mistake is correlating the two things.  Build quality, complexity, and general engineering can be seen in the video.    Perception of good sound is a whole other, often unscientific, ballgame.

[POV]

2 hours ago, Almaz said:

It would be fair to say that I’m not very happy with the direction and tone this tread has taken towards the Tom Evans phono preamplifier. What ever happened to the Aussie way “ don’t knock it till you try it “  How many of you on this thread have actually heard this phono preamplifier in person??

That being the case how can there be so much  criticism on the build quality and complexity, and quality of components used to build such a phono preamplifier.

Sure I have no doubt that there are some very talented electrical engineers among the Stereonet clan, but this unfair ridicule of a component is totally unnecessary.

Have a Merry Christmas and a happy New year.

John.

 

We all have different backgrounds and we all see things differently.  For me, the relative sound quality of this unit is irrelevant and I'll leave that to those who own it/want it to consider.   The obvious amateurish design and manufacturing is absolutely a problem, and when seeking to sell at the top of the market it would be entirely reasonable for customers to expect world class design and manufacturing.  The biggest issue in this whole story though for me, is the manufacturer being unable to fault find and repair their own component.  That is inexcusable and I'm not surprised they have acted to have the video taken down.  So I am going to disagree that the criticisms are unfair, and actually I think it's good to see some of these so called high end manufacturers being called out publicly.  People deserve to know what they are paying for.

 

Consider this photo:  It is a mechanical workshop that does engine rebuilds.  If I walked in there, I would walk straight out again.  I don't care about the outcomes they achieve, I wouldn't want my vehicle being worked on by a business prepared to operate in this way.   That's how I feel when I see the internal photos of this phono pre-amp unit. 

 

Others may say that they don't care about the state of the workshop, so long as their engine works well when they get it, that's their prerogative.  We all see things differently.

 

 

Edited December 8, 2024 by POV

[evil c]

3 hours ago, Almaz said:

It would be fair to say that I’m not very happy with the direction and tone this tread has taken towards the Tom Evans phono preamplifier. What ever happened to the Aussie way “ don’t knock it till you try it “  How many of you on this thread have actually heard this phono preamplifier in person??

That being the case how can there be so much  criticism on the build quality and complexity, and quality of components used to build such a phono preamplifier.

Sure I have no doubt that there are some very talented electrical engineers among the Stereonet clan, but this unfair ridicule of a component is totally unnecessary.

Have a Merry Christmas and a happy New year.

John.

Generally it is very easy to form opinions, and voice them.

Quite often those that can't afford a product, (or the cloth eared) in the upper tier, will question its quality for money or worth.

 

I've seen some simple components going for big $$, due to the R & D costs, high quality components,  plus limited,  or small quantities. 

People need to keep this in mind.

 

 

[aussievintage]

3 minutes ago, evil c said:

Quite often those that can't afford a product, (or the cloth eared) in the upper tier, will question its quality for money or worth.

 

Quite often those with the appropriate education and training can see right through the marketing BS 

[evil c]

Just now, aussievintage said:

 

Quite often those with the appropriate education and training can see right through the marketing BS 

If l want to waste my money on hifi products, just leave me be to learn the hard way!

[aussievintage]

Just now, evil c said:

If l want to waste my money on hifi products, just leave me be to learn the hard way!

 

You are not forced to read any posts here btw

[evil c]

Just now, aussievintage said:

 

You are not forced to read any posts here btw

My mistake, retreats to a less hostile forum!

[parrasaw]

9 hours ago, Almaz said:

It would be fair to say that I’m not very happy with the direction and tone this tread has taken towards the Tom Evans phono preamplifier. What ever happened to the Aussie way “ don’t knock it till you try it “  How many of you on this thread have actually heard this phono preamplifier in person??

That being the case how can there be so much  criticism on the build quality and complexity, and quality of components used to build such a phono preamplifier.

Sure I have no doubt that there are some very talented electrical engineers among the Stereonet clan, but this unfair ridicule of a component is totally unnecessary.

Have a Merry Christmas and a happy New year.

John.

I take  @Almaz  (John)'s point.

Without hearing Tom Evan's Highest price phono stage, none of us know what it might be able to add to a vinyl system. Some of Evan's earlier, much lower priced products were very well reviewed by Ken Redmond, Jason Kennedy etc

However ....

7 hours ago, POV said:

We all have different backgrounds and we all see things differently.  For me, the relative sound quality of this unit is irrelevant and I'll leave that to those who own it/want it to consider.   The obvious amateurish design and manufacturing is absolutely a problem, and when seeking to sell at the top of the market it would be entirely reasonable for customers to expect world class design and manufacturing.  The biggest issue in this whole story though for me, is the manufacturer being unable to fault find and repair their own component.  That is inexcusable and I'm not surprised they have acted to have the video taken down.  So I am going to disagree that the criticisms are unfair, and actually I think it's good to see some of these so called high end manufacturers being called out publicly.  People deserve to know what they are paying for.

 

I think that @POV   (Drew) hit's the nail on the head here.

In addition to a number of technical/design criticisms  which have been noted by several members who have appropriate technical knowledge (I am most definitely not one of those people), I think that it is an extraordinary "admission" for a manufacturer of a high-end product (audio, or any other type of product) to have to send a faulty product elsewhere because apparently/allegedly they don't want to/can't fix it themselves.

I was too late to the thread to watch "Mend it Mark"'s original video, but if Mr Evans sent a faulty product to Mark for repair, knowing that Mark is a widely followed YouTuber, surely there can be little surprise that the job ended up on YouTube (unless a prior agreement was reached, that this would not occur).

 

Kudos to Mark for being able to fix the problem. A highly entertaining YouTube channel.

 

Consumer rights in the UK are protected by the Consumer Rights Act 2015.

I think that in Australia our consumer protections are better than those found in the UK, but at least the UK has better consumer protection legislation than that which is found in many other countries, and when you purchase an audio product priced at GBP25,000, I think that a customer has every right to expect a long, trouble free "life" from that product, AND, if a problem does develop, a speedy resolution of the issues (at no cost) or a refund or a replacement etc.

 

Re the Supratek pre photo (earlier in the thread)  - highly regarded, reasonably priced products, which have a lifetime warranty (which is transferrable to other owners, which is much better than most of the big manufacturers ever offer).

Yes, I am aware that such an offer only means something while the company is in operation, but I believe that Supratek has been in operation for a  considerable time, and has many satisfied customers?

  

Edited December 9, 2024 by parrasaw

[SonicArt]

The video is still up, search for it, there are sites with the whole story. As for not being able to repair it, begs the question, did he design it in the first place or build off a plan, AI or otherwise, so many questions, probably not wise to bring them up in here

[Anodecap]

So what caused the tantalum capacitor to fail? the unit is full of them. This begs the question of whether the capacitor was faulty,  underrated or is there another issue. Will there be other tantalum capacitor failures in the future and who will fix it next time?

"Probably not Mend it Mark"

Here's an interesting link on the failure mechanisms of Tantalum capacitors for those technically inclined.

https://www.onelectrontech.com/tantalum-capacitor-failure-modes-and-causes-esr/

Edited December 9, 2024 by Anodecap

[parrasaw]

 

42 minutes ago, SonicArt said:

The video is still up, search for it, there are sites with the whole story. As for not being able to repair it, begs the question, did he design it in the first place or build off a plan, AI or otherwise, so many questions, probably not wise to bring them up in here

Good points.

If one has a look at Tom Evans website, statements are made about the MasterGroove SR Mk3, which led me to think that the designs and manufacture occur in house. The description of the unit ends with: 

"If the future of Audio is to be defined by one component, then we believe the Tom Evans Audio Design MasterGroove SR Mk3 will be that component, and given all that you already know about our World beating range of phono stages, do you truly believe that such an advancement would come from anyone else?

The new MasterGroove SR Mk3 is a quite literally beyond reality!"

 

Pretty lofty claims, and with a GBP25,000 price tag, if such claims are to be made, a purchaser has, I think, every right to expect that the various claims should  be supported in reality.

 

 

[Anodecap]

All hifi gear will develop faults for various reasons. These can be caused by poor design. Defects in manufacture such as a poorly placed surface mount component for example. Counterfeit components due to supply chain issues which is a very big problem for all manufacturers currently. Software and firmware issues due to errors in programming. Environmental issues caused by heat and humidity, this is particularly problematic in tropical areas

Age related issues such as dry joints and electrolytic capacitors drying out is a classic. These are a few of many possibilities, one could write a book on the subject.

I have seen some massive product issues from some of the biggest reputable hifi manufacturers in my time. Big or small every manufacturer will have product failures due to a plethora of reasons.

Big companies have the resources and ability to perform accelerated failure testing by subjecting their products to adverse conditions. They also have the ability to absorb the impact of a bad product which could be the death knell of a small manufacturer.

For a very expensive niche product that is sold in limited quantities I would expect personalised service and communication with the company involved for a prompt repair. I would expect free shipping for that repair. It is in the best interest for high end manufacturers to repair and investigate all faults in their products. Great products are created by good design, quality control, a traceable supply chain, comprehensive product testing and sound warranty service. Constant manufacturer review, analysis of failures and product improvements are what make good products.  Good niche high end audio manufacturers stay engaged with their clients.

If I were in the market for niche high end hifi, I would be looking at the big picture. Ask yourself will the company still be around in 10 years and will parts still be available.  Ask about warranty service and long term product support before parting with your cash. Unfortunately our throw away society also applies to high end gear. The goal is to not end up with a very expensive dud product after a few years that cannot be repaired.

Here is some information about the bathtub curve for equipment failures and reliability over the life of a product. This is often an area that smaller manufacturers neglect or don't have the time or budget to implement correctly.

The bathtub curve is a graph that models the reliability of a product over its lifetime, and is used in reliability engineering and deterioration modeling. The curve is shaped like a bathtub, with both ends curving up. 

The bathtub curve has three regions: 

Infant mortality period: The first region, where the failure rate decreases as early failures are worked out. This can be caused by manufacturing issues, transport or storage conditions, installation, or start up.

Normal life: The middle region, where the failure rate is constant and failures occur randomly.

Wear-out failures: The final region, where the failure rate increases as the product ages.

Reliability charts can be used as an early warning system to indicate a change in the failure rate. This could be a sign of a material problem, or that maintenance or operations are having quality issues. 

 

 

Note no mention of manufacturers or products.

 

[ENIGMA]

12 hours ago, POV said:

 

 

 

I must have worked on that engine at some point.

 

(so that's where my 10mm socket went!)

[Guest Moon 600i V2]

3 hours ago, Anodecap said:

All hifi gear will develop faults for various reasons. These can be caused by poor design. Defects in manufacture such as a poorly placed surface mount component for example. Counterfeit components due to supply chain issues which is a very big problem for all manufacturers currently. Software and firmware issues due to errors in programming. Environmental issues caused by heat and humidity, this is particularly problematic in tropical areas

Age related issues such as dry joints and electrolytic capacitors drying out is a classic. These are a few of many possibilities, one could write a book on the subject.

I have seen some massive product issues from some of the biggest reputable hifi manufacturers in my time. Big or small every manufacturer will have product failures due to a plethora of reasons.

Big companies have the resources and ability to perform accelerated failure testing by subjecting their products to adverse conditions. They also have the ability to absorb the impact of a bad product which could be the death knell of a small manufacturer.

For a very expensive niche product that is sold in limited quantities I would expect personalised service and communication with the company involved for a prompt repair. I would expect free shipping for that repair. It is in the best interest for high end manufacturers to repair and investigate all faults in their products. Great products are created by good design, quality control, a traceable supply chain, comprehensive product testing and sound warranty service. Constant manufacturer review, analysis of failures and product improvements are what make good products.  Good niche high end audio manufacturers stay engaged with their clients.

If I were in the market for niche high end hifi, I would be looking at the big picture. Ask yourself will the company still be around in 10 years and will parts still be available.  Ask about warranty service and long term product support before parting with your cash. Unfortunately our throw away society also applies to high end gear. The goal is to not end up with a very expensive dud product after a few years that cannot be repaired.

Here is some information about the bathtub curve for equipment failures and reliability over the life of a product. This is often an area that smaller manufacturers neglect or don't have the time or budget to implement correctly.

The bathtub curve is a graph that models the reliability of a product over its lifetime, and is used in reliability engineering and deterioration modeling. The curve is shaped like a bathtub, with both ends curving up. 

The bathtub curve has three regions: 

Infant mortality period: The first region, where the failure rate decreases as early failures are worked out. This can be caused by manufacturing issues, transport or storage conditions, installation, or start up.

Normal life: The middle region, where the failure rate is constant and failures occur randomly.

Wear-out failures: The final region, where the failure rate increases as the product ages.

Reliability charts can be used as an early warning system to indicate a change in the failure rate. This could be a sign of a material problem, or that maintenance or operations are having quality issues. 

 

 

Note no mention of manufacturers or products.

 

I have had to learn to let things ago. The last two years, I have put $560.00 into a Marantz SA 8001 (2007) which had the DAC chip replaced and cold solder joints and open traces repaired. Last week it started outputting DC on the analog outs. I'm done. As much as I like the sound of the unit, I cannot chase age related faults and have sonus interruptus going forward. So I left the unit at the tech's shop as he was willing to chase the faults for personal use. My Marantz SA KI Pearl is still motoring along so I will just replace it if and when it dies. Looking at the big picture, neither owes me anything. I just balk at throwing out a machine whose bones are still good. It is the electronic cancers that spoil the experience. I don't fault Marantz as their products gave me good service for over fifteen years. This experience may have something to do with my preference for the simplicity of a turntable which I can maintain myself. And IMHO it sounds better.

[aussievintage]

Seems to be some conflation of bad design and reliability.   One can exist without affecting the other.   A design can be bad, but still reliable.  In the case in point,  yes there was a failure of a tantalum cap,  but during the repair video,  bad design choices were revealed that should convince one that the product is not worth anywhere near the asking price, and this is not because of unreliability necessarily.

Edited December 9, 2024 by aussievintage

[zog]

16 hours ago, SonicArt said:

The video is still up, search for it, there are sites with the whole story. As for not being able to repair it, begs the question, did he design it in the first place or build off a plan, AI or otherwise, so many questions, probably not wise to bring them up in here

 

here: https://odysee.com/The-£25,000-Pre-Amp-that-went-Wrong---Tom-Evans-Mastergroove-SR-mkIII:c

 

[Mrkropotkin]

26 minutes ago, zog said:

 

here: https://odysee.com/The-£25,000-Pre-Amp-that-went-Wrong---Tom-Evans-Mastergroove-SR-mkIII:c

 

 

At the 10.30 minute mark, Mark shows the reverse engineered schematic he produced w Tom Evans designs and logo etc on the cover and throughout ....This maybe why it was taken down?

[bob_m_54]

17 hours ago, SonicArt said:

The video is still up, search for it, there are sites with the whole story. As for not being able to repair it, begs the question, did he design it in the first place or build off a plan, AI or otherwise, so many questions, probably not wise to bring them up in here

Yeah, I'm not sure the claim was made that the manufacturer couldn't repair it. They'd just replace boards anyway, not cost effective for them to do anything else apart from selling the owner a new one.

 

From what I got from the video, I think the claim was made, by the manufacturer, that Mark wouldn't be able to repair it. Probably said with a smug smile, thinking about all the components with the part numbers ground off.

[Bass13]

1 hour ago, zog said:

 

here: https://odysee.com/The-£25,000-Pre-Amp-that-went-Wrong---Tom-Evans-Mastergroove-SR-mkIII:c

 

 

Thanks for the link, watched it again, on a positive note at least Mark fixed it, still a bit in shock over the price thou.

[bob_m_54]

I think I prefer a bunch of tantalum caps in a big airy box, than a bunch of SMD electrolytics in a confined, heat inducing box LOL. Although the failure mode of Tantalums can be more destructive to the rest of the components.

 

 

 

.... No, I said "airy"

Edited December 9, 2024 by bob_m_54

[parrasaw]

42 minutes ago, bob_m_54 said:

Yeah, I'm not sure the claim was made that the manufacturer couldn't repair it. They'd just replace boards anyway, not cost effective for them to do anything else apart from selling the owner a new one.

 

From what I got from the video, I think the claim was made, by the manufacturer, that Mark wouldn't be able to repair it. Probably said with a smug smile, thinking about all the components with the part numbers ground off.

Now that I have seen the video (from the link above), I agree @bob_m_54 - it isn't clear how the faulty pre ended up in Mark's hands.

All we know for sure is that Mark says "It's very expensive. I've been told I won't be able to fix it" and that it was "Trashed in transit to US" and "Left channel buzzing" (paperwork on top of cabinet).

Perhaps even more intriguing in some ways:

1. If the pre originally went back to the manufacturer for repair or replacement (as you correctly suggested would/should have occurred), how did the (still) faulty component end up getting to Mark? Surely not from the manufacturer?

2. If the pre ended up in Mark's hands because of difficulties getting the maker to repair it (and this would be pure supposition/speculation), that wasn't an intelligent decision on behalf of the maker to "allow" this to happen.

etc, etc.

 

I take @Almaz's earlier point - I am also uncomfortable at some level in seeing a boutique maker being "put to the sword". However, because Tom Evans has made and sold a very expensive component about which he has made some pretty extraordinary claims, if that component doesn't match the claims made for it, it is hardly surprising that his design choices, part selections and pricing are questioned, especially if things go wrong.

Especially in the age of online posting/YouTube channels etc. 

  

[audiofeline]

8 hours ago, Mrkropotkin said:

At the 10.30 minute mark, Mark shows the reverse engineered schematic he produced w Tom Evans designs and logo etc on the cover and throughout ....This maybe why it was taken down?

Yes, but the implication I got was that Mark drew the reverse-engineered service manual for his personal use.  I think that is quite different from doing something like publishing his service manual, which would have greater copyright concerns.

 

Probably not smart for Mark to have put Evan's logo all over the personal service manual, which might get legal accusations (if he published it, like distributing it on the web) because having the logo would imply that it was produced by Evans, which it wasn't. 

 

But I'm writing with a basic familiarity of Australian copyright law.  Copyright law is very complex, and specific to each country.  Maybe there is a legitimate claim under UK law.

 

 

Edited December 10, 2024 by audiofeline

[sir sanders zingmore]

6 hours ago, parrasaw said:

I am also uncomfortable at some level in seeing a boutique maker being "put to the sword".

Do you really think that’s what Mark did in his video?

Lots of people have subsequently piled on, but from what I saw, Mark himself was actually not particularly critical. 

[parrasaw]

Hello @sir sanders zingmore. I agree with you.

No I don't think that Mark put the product or manufacturer to the sword. I thought that Mark was terrific and actually very fair in his comments. I liked his approach and manner so much that I watched several of his other videos yesterday, well before I watched the original Mastergroove video earlier today

I thought that Mark's reverse engineered service manual was brilliant.

 

I should/could have been clearer in what I wrote - I was thinking more about the hammering which Tom Evans received on Louis Rossmann's channel (2.16M subscribers) and elsewhere.

 

I stand behind my other thoughts - if a maker produces an audio component for sale at around GBP25,000, and makes the sort of claims for the product which were made by Tom Evans, then that firm can't be surprised if others comment on either the design and materials which are used or the "value" of the product.  

Edited December 10, 2024 by parrasaw