Best DAC?

[garyjac]

This is a typical piece of string. So, let's refine things a bit.  Assuming we plot  performance .vs. price curve and the extremes are "poor/cheap" to "divine" (at a divine price), where is the peak of the curve?  Literally the maximum bang for the buck.

[Snoopy8]

Let's start with "what is your budget?" and people can then make suggestions. 

 

As a start, Gieseler DACs have a good reputation here....

[David A]

I gather your'e asking what are the best 'bang for buck' dacs out there? I'll throw 3 dacs into the discussion...

 

- https://soundgallery.com.au/product/weiss-dac204-multi-format-dac-and-format-converter/

- https://soundgallery.com.au/product/soulnote-d-1n-dac/

- https://www.lineartubeaudio.com/products/aero-dac-digital-analog-converter

[TerryO]

Like Snoopy asked, what is your budget and or if it’s just a case of asking out of interest what are the best DACs then at what price points? 

for example as below

 

0 - $5k

$5k - $10k

$10k - $20k

$20k - $40k … etc?

 

… or maybe a whole different set of price points?

 

This could end up being an interesting discussion.

Edited November 13 by TerryO

[garyjac]

Not buying.  Hypothetical. Price from as low as you like to as high as you like.

[TerryO]

1 minute ago, garyjac said:

Not buying.  Hypothetical. Price from as low as you like to as high as you like.

as you said  … how long is a piece of string.

[garyjac]

Have a go...free hand...no criticisms.  You can set a price band and then list a product or products.  We can see if there is any interesting focal points out there.

Edited November 13 by garyjac

[Snoopy8]

28 minutes ago, garyjac said:

Not buying.  Hypothetical. Price from as low as you like to as high as you like.

How would getting every option and every opinion out there help anyone ?????  

[sir sanders zingmore]

Ok I'll play.....For me, the Topping d10 is the best DAC.

It's the one that got me off the DOTM merry-go-round

[garyjac]

It would never reach those huge extents, but it would be as unbiased to a degree.  We tend to bias ourselves to price, imo.  Just throw in a low, middle, high, if you like.

[garyjac]

2 minutes ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

Ok I'll play.....For me, the Topping d10 is the best DAC.

It's the one that got me off the DOTM merry-go-round

Thanks, what was it that led you to this dac, without considering price?  Lucky first time?  

[sir sanders zingmore]

Just now, garyjac said:

Thanks, what was it that led you to this dac, without considering price?  Lucky first time?  

 

*unpopular/controversial opinion alert*

What led me there was a gradual changing of my opinion about how much difference DACs make to overall sound quality. For me, the difference between DACs that I heard in my system was small enough that I decided I'd be just as happy selling (relatively) expensive incumbent and pocketing the change

[garyjac]

That sounds like a well reasoned conclusion.  I am inclined to agree that the fidelity issue is decided and we are left to consider flavours, characters, filters and general  means of implementation. Not many of us are brave enough to stop whoring after the flavour of the month. How many "incumbents" did it take?

[muon*]

1 hour ago, garyjac said:

It would never reach those huge extents, but it would be as unbiased to a degree.  We tend to bias ourselves to price, imo.  Just throw in a low, middle, high, if you like.

Who is "We", I do not consider price at all when looking at what sounds best to me.

 

And are we taking about best measuring, or what sounds best to the individual.

Edited November 13 by muon*
typo

[MrBurns84]

Ok I'll bite..

Under $1k - assorted dacs from Topping, ifi, Schiit, SMSL etc. and for most it will fit the bill with little to complaint about.

$1 - 1.5k - Musical Paradise dac-  https://www.musicalparadise.ca/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=61&product_id=109 (strictly for those with OCD like me)

$2 - 4k - Dacs a plenty, Gustard R26, Denafrips Pontus, Venus, LAiV, Schiit ... but my take on a dac in this price range is the Gieseler Kompakt II dacs and if you want something a bit more eccentric - Abbas Audio dacs

Over $5k - playing in the exotic range here:  Lampizators, Audio Notes, PS Audios.

[a.dent]

Okay I’ll bite. And at the risk of offending anyone, my comments are based on my listening experiences and my research.

 

A DAC’s job by definition is to convert a digital signal to an analog signal with minimal distortion. There will be no sound difference between any well measuring DACs. Any DACs that sound different are introducing distortion somewhere (such as tube based or poorly designed DACs).

 

Price is definitely  not an indication of what’s best. 

 

@sir sanders zingmore’s Topping D10 may not be the best DAC but it will be aurally indistinguishable from any other acceptably measuring DAC. 

[garyjac]

1 hour ago, muon* said:

Who is "We", I do not consider price at all when looking at what sounds best to me.

 

And are we taking about best measuring, or what sounds best to the individual.

Oh, I don't know about "no bias" when it comes to price, unless your name is Elon. (I've told you not to annoy me here Elon). "We" the audio gents in the world.  I don't know who else would trouble themselves with such a question, do you?

[garyjac]

24 minutes ago, MrBurns84 said:

Ok I'll bite..

Under $1k - assorted dacs from Topping, ifi, Schiit, SMSL etc. and for most it will fit the bill with little to complaint about.

$1 - 1.5k - Musical Paradise dac-  https://www.musicalparadise.ca/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=61&product_id=109 (strictly for those with OCD like me)

$2 - 4k - Dacs a plenty, Gustard R26, Denafrips Pontus, Venus, LAiV, Schiit ... but my take on a dac in this price range is the Gieseler Kompakt II dacs and if you want something a bit more eccentric - Abbas Audio dacs

Over $5k - playing in the exotic range here:  Lampizators, Audio Notes, PS Audios.

There is overlap, of course.  Topping go to $1650 or so. I think.  Little to complain about indeed, so do we seek a mellifluous distortion after all?

[garyjac]

26 minutes ago, a.dent said:

Okay I’ll bite. And at the risk of offending anyone, my comments are based on my listening experiences and my research.

 

A DAC’s job by definition is to convert a digital signal to an analog signal with minimal distortion. There will be no sound difference between any well measuring DACs. Any DACs that sound different are introducing distortion somewhere (such as tube based or poorly designed DACs).

 

Price is definitely  not an indication of what’s best. 

 

@sir sanders zingmore’s Topping D10 may not be the best DAC but it will be aurally indistinguishable from any other acceptably measuring DAC. 

Being in the Quad camp for many years, my leanings would be similar I think. There will be those who argue that we may not be measuring everything, of course.  However, when we hear a difference we should be able to evaluate that further with a measurement, or, we are, at least for a moment, in the realm of fantasy.  Since a dac is an engineered artefact, we can assume no magic but the magic of human imagination and different ear/brain combinations.

[muon*]

25 minutes ago, garyjac said:

Oh, I don't know about "no bias" when it comes to price, unless your name is Elon. (I've told you not to annoy me here Elon). "We" the audio gents in the world.  I don't know who else would trouble themselves with such a question, do you?

Budget is a constraint for myself and most people but it does not mean it sets a bias regarding sound quality, only what we can afford.

[garyjac]

12 minutes ago, muon* said:

Budget is a constraint for myself and most people but it does not mean it sets a bias regarding sound quality, only what we can afford.

Fair enough, if you are able to remove yourself from the money question.  However, I think price sets an expectation of quality doesn't it?  Would you call that a bias of a sort?

[muon*]

2 minutes ago, garyjac said:

Fair enough, if you are able to remove yourself from the money question.  However, I think price sets an expectation of quality doesn't it?  Would you call that a bias of a sort?

Your talking about expectation bias, that it is a choice for the individual.

 

Personally I do not expect something to suit myself or sound better to myself just because it costs more, there are expensive bits of kit I would not choose to have in my system.

[MattyW]

The Hifiman Serenade Jr can be had for $840 right now. It has an integrated steamer, USB, coax, fibre, NOS discrete R2R DAC and headphone amp and to my ears at least performs in the same league as my Gustard R26. Course I haven’t done a proper head to head with either in my main system but to me it’s pretty hard to beat without spending significantly more. It even has analog input so you can use as a preamp though I wouldn’t expect much from that. 
 

Anyway, I liked it enough I got a second one. Hard to beat the integrated streamer/DAC combo and it doesn’t seem to need a network filter for optimal performance as the Gustard R26 does. I find the combination of network streamer and very competent discrete R2R DAC to be exceptional value for money given I mostly use streaming via Roon. It handles DSD512 no worries, not that I detect any real sonic advantage upsampling from what is native.

 

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005007331308374.html?

 

Though presently my best DAC remains the AudioGD R7HE Mk2, and it's a bit of a toss up between the Gustard R26 and Hifiman Serenade Jr. I gave my Musician Draco away to a mate as I find it pretty appalling sonically vs the Serenade and really it's dreadful value vs the Serenade as is the equivalent Denafrips Ares. You get both better sonics and more features with the Serenade for the asking price.

Edited November 13 by MattyW

[garyjac]

6 hours ago, MattyW said:

The Hifiman Serenade Jr can be had for $840 right now. It has an integrated steamer, USB, coax, fibre, NOS discrete R2R DAC and headphone amp and to my ears at least performs in the same league as my Gustard R26. Course I haven’t done a proper head to head with either in my main system but to me it’s pretty hard to beat without spending significantly more. It even has analog input so you can use as a preamp though I wouldn’t expect much from that. 
 

Anyway, I liked it enough I got a second one. Hard to beat the integrated streamer/DAC combo and it doesn’t seem to need a network filter for optimal performance as the Gustard R26 does.

To follow the theme...if I gave you $10000 to spend on a dac (calm down, that's not happening), you would be inclined to this choice because there would be little improvement, then sneakily spend the rest on a very good bottle of whisky?  

[MattyW]

26 minutes ago, garyjac said:

To follow the theme...if I gave you $10000 to spend on a dac (calm down, that's not happening), you would be inclined to this choice because there would be little improvement, then sneakily spend the rest on a very good bottle of whisky?  

I guess I could get one of the full size Abbas units, or perhaps SW1X Audio.

 

Don’t need much for drinks. I’ve moved on from cognac and now enjoy The Kraken Black spiced rum. Really enjoy it drink neat. So smooth.

Edited November 13 by MattyW