Balanced interconnect vs RCA interconnect

[Popey the Sailor]

Hello Everyone,

Good day, I am not sure its a duplicate topic.

 

Can you please help me to understand, If a system supports both Balanced out and RCA out which one is better in terms of better sonic performance or both have same performance.

 

The amplifier design is not fully balanced.

 

In my current set-up, I am using  50cm rca cable between the amplifier and DAC.

 

Thank you

Edited October 31, 2024 by VJC

[Popey the Sailor]

 @StereoNET

 

 

Edited October 31, 2024 by VJC
No answer to my question

[David A]

This FAQ by Dallas Clarke (Clarke Audio) might be of interest - https://clarke-audio.com/article_balance.htm

[metal beat]

2 hours ago, VJC said:

Hello Everyone,

Good day, I am not sure its a duplicate topic.

 

Can you please help me to understand, If a system supports both Balanced out and RCA out which one is better in terms of better sonic performance or both have same performance.

 

The amplifier design is not fully balanced.

 

In my current set-up, I am using  50cm rca cable between the amplifier and DAC.

 

Thank you

 

all things being equal, the rca connection will be better as the amp is not fully balanced.

[rockeater]

3 hours ago, metal beat said:

the rca connection will be better as the amp is not fully balanced.

I cannot think of any situation where RCA would be better than XLR.

In this case, where the circuitry is not truly balanced, it should make no difference, but having a choice, I would still connect with XLRs.

if for no other reason than immunity to noise between components.

[metal beat]

7 hours ago, rockeater said:

I cannot think of any situation where RCA would be better than XLR.

In this case, where the circuitry is not truly balanced, it should make no difference, but having a choice, I would still connect with XLRs.

if for no other reason than immunity to noise between components.

 

You need to get out more.

 

If the amp is single ended, adding xlr makes zero sonic sense.

 

Noise is not an issue in a hifi setting.  If it is, you have bigger issues.

 

I suggest the thread starter listen to both se and xlr and pick the one he likes best.

 

 I won't start on the quality of the cables.

Edited October 31, 2024 by metal beat

[Popey the Sailor]

15 minutes ago, metal beat said:

 

You need to get out more.

 

If the amp is single ended, adding xlr makes zero sonic sense.

 

Noise is not an issue in a hifi setting.  If it is, you have bigger issues.

 

I suggest the thread starter listen to both se and xlr and pick the one he likes best.

 

 I won't start on the quality of the cables.

Hi there,

Thank you, I am completely happy with my set-up. The amplifier is not differently balanced circuit. 

 

But my setup have an option to add a xlr cable, so just checking to know will it be advantageous.

 

Thank you 

[SonicArt]

If the unit is a single ended design, and they have added balanced outs or ins, then likely this is achieved with opamps or similar, so it makes no sense to use Balanced as often it sounds worse than the direct SE connection.

I have experienced this with a customer who tried XLR with from memory, a dac that had balanced out, said it didn't sound right, when he investigated he discovered the balanced wasn't really balanced.

[muon*]

I had a AD/DA convertor that had only XLR outs, bypassing the extra circuitry of the XLR making it RCA out improved the sonics very noticeably.

 

SO if not needing to use extremely long cables and not a balanced design I'd use the RCA outs.

Edited November 1, 2024 by muon*

[rockeater]

2 hours ago, muon* said:

I had a AD/DA convertor that had only XLR outs, bypassing the extra circuitry of the XLR making it RCA out improved the sonics very noticeably.

This is strange, because unit that has XLR only, is very likely to be properly balanced as most modern DAC ICs have true balanced outputs straight from the chip. It then has no extra circuitry to make it balanced, just 4 channels on op-amps or transistors.

If this was an older design, then to be truly balanced when making XLR output unit only , they would have had to use 4 mono DAC chips. if they did not, then there are two common ways of doing it:

- inverting op-amps or

- transformers.

I found transformers to be really bad, slowing down music and often losing detail.

Inverting op-amps really make no difference, for they present the same thing but inverted.

 

So if your unit used transformers, then indeed, that would have made a positive difference to by-pass the balancing circuitry.

 

[metal beat]

7 minutes ago, rockeater said:

This is strange, because unit that has XLR only, is very likely to be properly balanced as most modern DAC ICs have true balanced outputs straight from the chip. It then has no extra circuitry to make it balanced, just 4 channels on op-amps or transistors.

If this was an older design, then to be truly balanced when making XLR output unit only , they would have had to use 4 mono DAC chips. if they did not, then there are two common ways of doing it:

- inverting op-amps or

- transformers.

I found transformers to be really bad, slowing down music and often losing detail.

Inverting op-amps really make no difference, for they present the same thing but inverted.

 

So if your unit used transformers, then indeed, that would have made a positive difference to by-pass the balancing circuitry.

 

 

13 hours ago, rockeater said:

I cannot think of any situation where RCA would be better than XLR.

In this case, where the circuitry is not truly balanced, it should make no difference, but having a choice, I would still connect with XLRs.

if for no other reason than immunity to noise between components.

 

I guess u have changed your mind

[muon*]

3 hours ago, rockeater said:

This is strange, because unit that has XLR only, is very likely to be properly balanced as most modern DAC ICs have true balanced outputs straight from the chip. It then has no extra circuitry to make it balanced, just 4 channels on op-amps or transistors.

If this was an older design, then to be truly balanced when making XLR output unit only , they would have had to use 4 mono DAC chips. if they did not, then there are two common ways of doing it:

- inverting op-amps or

- transformers.

I found transformers to be really bad, slowing down music and often losing detail.

Inverting op-amps really make no difference, for they present the same thing but inverted.

 

So if your unit used transformers, then indeed, that would have made a positive difference to by-pass the balancing circuitry.

 

It was not balanced circuitry.

 

It was just op amp circuitry added to give the 5v output and pseudo balanced.

Behringer SRC 2496

The detail retrieval and transparency was way better after the bypass.

Edited November 1, 2024 by muon*

[metal beat]

27 minutes ago, muon* said:

It was not balance circuitry.

 

It was just op amp circuitry added to give the 5v output and pseudo balanced.

Behringer SRC 2496

The detail retrieval and transparency was way better after the bypass.

 

It's there to trick experts that think they know all, but don't .

 

Well done

 

[Addicted to music]

4 hours ago, rockeater said:

This is strange, because unit that has XLR only, is very likely to be properly balanced as most modern DAC ICs have true balanced outputs straight from the chip. It then has no extra circuitry to make it balanced, just 4 channels on op-amps or transistors.

If this was an older design, then to be truly balanced when making XLR output unit only , they would have had to use 4 mono DAC chips. if they did not, then there are two common ways of doing it:

- inverting op-amps or

- transformers.

I found transformers to be really bad, slowing down music and often losing detail.

Inverting op-amps really make no difference, for they present the same thing but inverted.

 

So if your unit used transformers, then indeed, that would have made a positive difference to by-pass the balancing circuitry.

 

Correct.

[betty boop]

6 hours ago, muon* said:

It was just op amp circuitry added to give the 5v output and pseudo balanced.

Behringer SRC 2496

 

usually to suit other pro gear i expect that typically allows/requires  XLR hook up...

[muon*]

5 minutes ago, betty boop said:

 

usually to suit other pro gear i expect that typically allows/requires  XLR hook up...

Yes, just tacked on, and degraded the SQ.

[rockeater]

11 hours ago, metal beat said:

I guess u have changed your mind

I have not.

creating balanced output on transformers was mostly done 30+ years ago on high end CD players from Sony and Marantz. At least I have not seen it done on any other gear.

Only few models were produced and results were rather poor.

All the rest of  a fake "balanced circuitry" has been done on op-amps and it makes no difference on sound quality whether you use single ended or balanced gear to amplify it.

10 hours ago, metal beat said:

It was just op amp circuitry added to give the 5v output and pseudo balanced.

Behringer SRC 2496

The detail retrieval and transparency was way better after the bypass.

Although I am a big fan of Behringer and I actually have SRC 2496 in my workshop for it can do some clever things and it was cheap, they have done some strange things in it.

 

It's digital inputs/outputs are interfaced  to the outside world on transformers

 

while analogue balanced outputs from DAC are summed on an op-amp, only to be restored to quasi-balanced on more op-amps.

It appears the pro gear makers have different things ion their minds than audiophiles.

 

11 hours ago, metal beat said:

It's there to trick experts that think they know all, but don't .

I never thought of myself as an expert, so it might might not be directed at me, but indeed, I have no idea why they would do all this.

@metal beat is again well ahead of me.

[almikel]

Balanced inputs/outputs have been the norm for pro gear (which may need to run long interconnects) for many decades, as any noise introduced on the long interconnect leads affects both the + and - conductors and gets cancelled at the balanced input of the next bit of kit.

 

Any time you have a balanced output running to a single ended input, you've lost the benefit of a balanced output (assuming it was needed).

 

Consumer gear with short interconnects typically don't benefit from balanced inputs/outputs.

 

cheers,

Mike

 

 

[rockeater]

5 hours ago, almikel said:

Consumer gear with short interconnects typically don't benefit from balanced inputs/outputs.

If they are single ended in design, then indeed, this is true.

[Addicted to music]

17 hours ago, almikel said:

Balanced inputs/outputs have been the norm for pro gear (which may need to run long interconnects) for many decades, as any noise introduced on the long interconnect leads affects both the + and - conductors and gets cancelled at the balanced input of the next bit of kit.

 

Any time you have a balanced output running to a single ended input, you've lost the benefit of a balanced output (assuming it was needed).

 

Consumer gear with short interconnects typically don't benefit from balanced inputs/outputs.

 

cheers,

Mike

 

 

 

XLR operates on a higher voltage; usually 4V compared to 2V RCA.  Already this numerical value places XLR at an advantage on S/N by about 12-14db, regardless of cable length discussions.   2ndly any component with XLR support gives added flexability, even if it was a single ended design which most amplifiers are.  its no secret that XLR will benefit in every area.  

[almikel]

Mixing pro gear running balanced outputs/inputs with consumer gear running single ended outputs/inputs can work fine.

I've run a bunch of setups mixing both balanced and unbalanced gear without any issue  

 

But it can cause issues, like earth loop hums, signal levels on outputs/inputs too low/too high causing gain structure problems...

 

Rane published a paper back in 1985 which is a worthwhile read: 

https://www.ranecommercial.com/legacy/note110.html

 

On 05/11/2024 at 2:53 PM, Addicted to music said:

XLR operates on a higher voltage; usually 4V compared to 2V RCA.

At first glance, you may query whether a consumer amp with an unbalanced input designed for 2V could handle the 4V pro level balanced output of say a pre-amp or crossover?

 

Pro balanced connections have 3 conductors - +v signal, -v signal, shield/earth - with the 4V between +v signal and -v signal.

Connecting a balanced pro output to an unbalanced consumer input with an "off the shelf" cable typically means you ignore the -ve signal...so back to 2V.

 

On 05/11/2024 at 2:53 PM, Addicted to music said:

Already this numerical value places XLR at an advantage on S/N by about 12-14db, regardless of cable length discussions.

 

Clearly pro level balanced connections to other pro level balanced gear has S/N benefits - that's why it exists, to overcome induced noise in long interconnects.

 

I haven't attempted any maths - how does that S/N ratio reduce when half of the signal is ignored?

 

I like XLR connectors, I consider them superior to RCA connectors - particularly the "locking" part of the physical connector - same as I like Neutrik connectors for speakers.

 

On 05/11/2024 at 2:53 PM, Addicted to music said:

its no secret that XLR will benefit in every area.  

I struggle to see any significant benefit where a source device has an XLR balanced output connecting to an RCA unbalanced input to the next device in the chain, compared to an unbalanced RCA to RCA connection, in a domestic environment?

 

Maybe I've misunderstood the OP's question?

 

Mike

[Addicted to music]

56 minutes ago, almikel said:

Mixing pro gear running balanced outputs/inputs with consumer gear running single ended outputs/inputs can work fine.

I've run a bunch of setups mixing both balanced and unbalanced gear without any issue  

 

But it can cause issues, like earth loop hums, signal levels on outputs/inputs too low/too high causing gain structure problems...

 

 

 

XLR reduces the possibility of earth hum as the earths are not connected, so there is way less changes of any "earth hum" unlike RCA where the signal has reference to the earth potential.   Hence the reason why its so flexible,  if there is an issue with the RCA, if the equipment supports XLR then try XLR

 Again I will use XLR and not RCA after trialing it in my rig and found that it sounded way better.  Why?  Follow the traces and the input to the power amp RCA has a input cap... in XLR connection it bypasses this cap.

 

56 minutes ago, almikel said:

 

 

Rane published a paper back in 1985 which is a worthwhile read: 

https://www.ranecommercial.com/legacy/note110.html

 

 

 

Sorry, I wont read stuff  thats written 30-40yrs ago!  its out of date,  a bit like some of the BS about cable impedance of 75 ohms used in SPDIF!  And you have to use/terminate with  bnc and not RCA....total nonsense,  the standard of SPDIF has changed and has gone through several revisions in its 40yr history, hence the reason why most current manufacturers use RCA for spdif but this is off topic but you get the drift.

 

56 minutes ago, almikel said:

 

 

At first glance, you may query whether a consumer amp with an unbalanced input designed for 2V could handle the 4V pro level balanced output of say a pre-amp or crossover?

 

 

 

Added benefit for adaptability, i wont buy products that wont support XLR.  

 

 

 

56 minutes ago, almikel said:

 

Pro balanced connections have 3 conductors - +v signal, -v signal, shield/earth - with the 4V between +v signal and -v signal.

Connecting a balanced pro output to an unbalanced consumer input with an "off the shelf" cable typically means you ignore the -ve signal...so back to 2V.

 

 

No idea where you get this "ignore the -ve 2V"  from????

Xlr is always in differential configuration and the full 4V is utilised,  at the downstream, a differential input that "sum" via opamps or differential  balanced input to give you the 2V RCA output thats compatible to single ended so its compatible to single ended circuitry.  This is how it works.

 

56 minutes ago, almikel said:

 

 

I struggle to see any significant benefit where a source device has an XLR balanced output connecting to an RCA unbalanced input to the next device in the chain, compared to an unbalanced RCA to RCA connection, in a domestic environment?

 

Maybe I've misunderstood the OP's question?

 

Mike

 

The benefits are clear, the higher voltage has benefits of higher S/N, and thats a given.  the lower the voltage the more likely you are being effected by noise.  Take MM/MC,  with MC you are that low that thermal noise in resistor values comes into play.  Google thermal noise in resistors and it will give you the formula for thermal noise with resistance in ohms in the equation.  Because the signal is transmitted in differential mode and its independent of ground reference you reduced earth hum to nonexistent, so even at short distances it provide benefits from the get go due to double the amplitude; 2V vs 4V and its not reference to ground like RCA is.

 

This guy explains better than I:  

 

 

Edited November 6, 2024 by Addicted to music

[almikel]

Hi @Addicted to music,

 

we're clearly talking past each other about different things.

 

I completely accept that a device with a balanced output interconnected with a device with a balanced input via XLR or TRS works just fine.

 

My post was specifically referencing potential challenges when interconnecting pro gear (balanced inputs/outputs) with consumer gear (unbalanced inputs/outputs).

 

51 minutes ago, Addicted to music said:

XLR reduces the possibility of earth hum as the earths are not connected,

The standard for XLR to XLR balanced connections is chassis earth is connected at each end....ie earths connected.

 

The reason why earth hum is reduced with balanced connections is due to the differential signal on the +v and -v not having any need to reference an earth connection - which works very well interconnecting a balanced output with a balanced input, eg balanced XLR output to balanced XLR input.

 

Potential issues arise when you want to connect a balanced output to an unbalanced input, and vice versa.

 

1 hour ago, Addicted to music said:

Sorry, I wont read stuff  thats written 30-40yrs ago!  its out of date, 

We're talking analog stuff here - it's just as relevant now as it was when it was written.

 

1 hour ago, Addicted to music said:

No idea where you get this "ignore the -ve 2V"  from????

I'm specifically referring to connecting a balanced bit of kit to an unbalanced bit of kit, say using an XLR to RCA interconnect cable, or an XLR to TS interconnect cable.

The -v output is not connected in this case....

 

If it was connected - what would you connect it to? - If connected to ground you would create a short circuit between the -v output and ground, overloading the output stage.

 

Mike

[muon*]

Never mind

Edited November 7, 2024 by muon*

[ray4410]

25 minutes ago, muon* said:

Never mind