Help me choose a subwoofer for 2 channel music

[JkSpinner]

Hi all

following on from another thread that I jumped in on, thought I would start a new thread with a more accurate question. (https://www.stereonet.com/forums/topic/612178-overview-of-subwoofer-management/)

 

I am looking for a single Sub for my 2 channel.  I have recently completed some measurements and found my bass to be lacking, especially as I have moved my speakers away from the front wall.  I also have a leaky room large glass sliding doors, and open walls to other rooms.  On Saturday, I trialed an old JBL 10” ported sub, and wow, what a difference.  So I am looking for a sub.  I have trolled the forums getting some ideas.

i think I am looking for a 12” Sub (maybe a 15”) sealed sub.  No passive radiator.  I am not looking for DSP as I understand DSP is better implemented upstream.  But I do like the idea of an app to manage the Sub, and several subs I am looking at have what appears to be a great app, but also DSP, so my question is, can you turn DSP off on these subs, and just use the LFE controls.

My attention has been drawn to these subs

SVS SB 3000. $2500

sVS SB 2000 at $1800

Monitor Audio Anthra W12 $3400

Rhythmic 12  unknown price

Bowers and Wilkins DB2D (a bit pricey though) $6k

happy to look at others, but have to limit somewhere

thanks

Tom

[Snoopy8]

30 minutes ago, JkSpinner said:

 I have trolled the forums getting some ideas.

 

Yes, DSP on sub is optional. The App is a gimmick which can upset your upstream DSP settings!  And LFE (which is a DSP settings) should be set upstream as well, rather than on sub.

 

[Keith_W]

You tried a 10" ported sub in your room and it made a big difference? I guess that tells you how much sub you need. 

 

Anyway, here is a general sub buying guide. 

 

Step no. 1: determine budget. You have done that, about $1800-5000. 

 

Step no. 2: determine how many. You have said you want one sub. I don't think this is a good idea, but I can understand if you have limitations. If your budget stretches to $5k, you would be better off with two subs worth $2500 than one $5k sub, but you may have other factors that stops you from deploying more subs. That's OK. 

 

Step no. 3: determine how big your subs need to be. There is still some information missing. Your room volume and what SPL you want to achieve is a big influence on what sub (or subs) you need to get. In general, the swept volume of the sub (surface area of the cone x excursion) determines the volume, and so does presence/absence of ports. If you choose a smaller sub, you will need more excursion for the same SPL and more excursion is usually bad because of more nonlinearity and distortion at extremes of excursion. IMHO smaller subs should only be chosen if you are going to deploy more than one sub, or if you have a small room, or if you don't need much bass and listen at lower SPL's. 

 

If you are only going to deploy one sub, I would recommend a bigger sub. Bear in mind that a 15" sub has more than twice the surface area of a 10" sub (1130cm^2 vs 490cm^2) and the 12" sub is in between (707cm^2). All things being equal, the 15" will have twice the volume, or half the distortion, etc. for not much more money. 

 

Step no. 4: write down a list of features that you want, e.g. dual input, phase adjustment, built-in crossover, styling, servo control, etc. You have already said no DSP. 

 

Re Rythmik subs: I have four 12" Rythmik drivers and two 800W Rythmik plate amps. I commissioned the subs from @Paul Spencer. It cost slightly over $12k to get them built. From memory, the drivers alone cost $1000 each, and the amps about $1500 each. Meaning the rest of the $5k cost went into Paul's expertise, CAD time, CNC machine hire, cabinet maker cost and fees, etc. The result is a pair of extremely powerful subs that are built like a tank but look like part of the furniture (that was Paul's idea). I consider that to be very good value. You can spend less and buy something off the shelf. 

Edited October 7, 2024 by Keith_W

[JkSpinner]

3 hours ago, Snoopy8 said:

rather than on sub.

My 2 channel amp has pre outs and Sub out.  If I use the pre out, I am guessing that I need to use LFE on the sub.  If I use Sub out, I am guessing the LFE is preset, or perhaps I can adjust it at the sub as well.

 

3 hours ago, Snoopy8 said:

DSP on sub is optional

Are you suggesting that even if I buy a sub withDSP, I can choose not to use it, switch it on.

[Snoopy8]

21 minutes ago, JkSpinner said:

My 2 channel amp has pre outs and Sub out.  If I use the pre out, I am guessing that I need to use LFE on the sub.  If I use Sub out, I am guessing the LFE is preset, or perhaps I can adjust it at the sub as well.

 

Are you suggesting that even if I buy a sub withDSP, I can choose not to use it, switch it on.

It depends on how you implement the sub integration and the gear you have.  For me, I prefer to do all DSP, including LFE at source.  Otherwise, you have to remember where to locate  each of the DSP settings. And easily forgotten.  

 

Use the DSP on the sub when you have no choice.  I do not use my sub's DSP.

[JkSpinner]

47 minutes ago, Snoopy8 said:

I prefer to do all DSP

Thanks Snoopy.  At the moment, I have no DSP in my amp, or my CD player.  It might be something I look at in the future, but not yet. (One thing at a time)

[JkSpinner]

4 hours ago, Keith_W said:

Step no. 1

Probably down towards the $2k to $3k for a single Sub.  Leaves me WAF for another sub down the track, and also the option of adding a new sub for HT.  I need to work out whether I can integrate the same sub for both 2 Chanel and HT.

[JkSpinner]

4 hours ago, Keith_W said:

Step no. 2

1 new Sub for now.  I am open to a second at a later stage.  I would like to purchase a current / new model so that I can add an identically sub at a later stage if I choose.

 

4 hours ago, Keith_W said:

Step no. 3:

Room is approx 7 x 4.4, with a 3.5m glass sliding door on one side, and a 2.5m open wall on the other.  
I would need to do some recent measurements to determine SPL, then seek further advice.

 

4 hours ago, Keith_W said:

Step no. 4

Ability to support two different sources would be great but not essential.  Built in cross over is nice, a nice app, dsp is OK as long as I can option it off.  Servo control- unsure.

[Satanica]

My advice, if you don't go all in with a sub and that probably means getting more than one and using tools to integrate it\them with your speakers, then don't do it at all.
At the moment you're not all in.

Have a complete holistic plan.
Perhaps consider more capable stereo speakers.

Edited October 8, 2024 by Satanica

[JkSpinner]

5 hours ago, Satanica said:

Have a complete holistic plan

I don’t know.  I plugged a 25 year old Sub in, made a couple simple adjustments, and it sounds great

[Satanica]

22 minutes ago, JkSpinner said:

I don’t know.  I plugged a 25 year old Sub in, made a couple simple adjustments, and it sounds great

OK, if it sounds great then perhaps just sit on this for a while. Also, have you done some measurements of your left and right speakers with the subs in and if so can you post them?

Edited October 8, 2024 by Satanica

[David A]

16 hours ago, JkSpinner said:

Hi all

following on from another thread that I jumped in on, thought I would start a new thread with a more accurate question. (https://www.stereonet.com/forums/topic/612178-overview-of-subwoofer-management/)

 

I am looking for a single Sub for my 2 channel.  I have recently completed some measurements and found my bass to be lacking, especially as I have moved my speakers away from the front wall.  I also have a leaky room large glass sliding doors, and open walls to other rooms.  On Saturday, I trialed an old JBL 10” ported sub, and wow, what a difference.  So I am looking for a sub.  I have trolled the forums getting some ideas.

i think I am looking for a 12” Sub (maybe a 15”) sealed sub.  No passive radiator.  I am not looking for DSP as I understand DSP is better implemented upstream.  But I do like the idea of an app to manage the Sub, and several subs I am looking at have what appears to be a great app, but also DSP, so my question is, can you turn DSP off on these subs, and just use the LFE controls.

My attention has been drawn to these subs

SVS SB 3000. $2500

sVS SB 2000 at $1800

Monitor Audio Anthra W12 $3400

Rhythmic 12  unknown price

Bowers and Wilkins DB2D (a bit pricey though) $6k

happy to look at others, but have to limit somewhere

thanks

Tom

 

I like the Rhythmik Audio F12SE around your budget. That is a good value and fast sounding sub, so it's well suited to 2-channel music - https://www.rythmikaudio.com/F12SE.html

[JkSpinner]

5 hours ago, David A said:

I like the Rhythmik Audio F12SE

Thanks David, the Rythmic subs keep coming up in different threads, and many of the guys / gals that are right into this have the rythmic subs.  Personally, I have never heard of them, but yesterday was in contact with the Australian supplier for pricing and availability

[Jamie m]

10 hours ago, Satanica said:

OK, if it sounds great then perhaps just sit on this for a while

As someone who has jumped in and then changed direction (repeatedly) in different areas of hifi, this is great advice. Will save you $$$ in the long run.

[David A]

14 hours ago, JkSpinner said:

Thanks David, the Rythmic subs keep coming up in different threads, and many of the guys / gals that are right into this have the rythmic subs.  Personally, I have never heard of them, but yesterday was in contact with the Australian supplier for pricing and availability

 

I've never owned a Rythmik sub, but my best friend owned one before upgrading to a very expensive sub. So I got to see/hear his one in his system. They're good value.

 

Edited October 9, 2024 by David A

[JkSpinner]

21 hours ago, Satanica said:

measurements of your left and right speakers with the subs

Hi Paul, I think I did measure with the sub in place, which chart do you want to see.

[Satanica]

33 minutes ago, JkSpinner said:

Hi Paul, I think I did measure with the sub in place, which chart do you want to see.

 

 

Hi, frequency response of left and right would be good.

[JkSpinner]

 

14 hours ago, Satanica said:

frequency response

Graphs included

L+R speakers with the sub.

L speaker with and without sub,

R speaker with and without Sub,

 

Volume on the sub was about 60%

Cross over about 80 to 90Hz

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 9, 2024 by JkSpinner
Uploaded new graphs

[Keith_W]

There is no turquoise line in the 2nd graph. I think the order of your graphs and your descriptions are not in the same order. Please edit your post with the legend under each graph, it makes it easier to read. 

[JkSpinner]

10 hours ago, Keith_W said:

Please edit your post

Easier said than done Fred.  Working on it

Edited October 9, 2024 by JkSpinner

[Satanica]

15 hours ago, JkSpinner said:

 

Graphs included

L+R speakers with the sub.

L speaker with and without sub,

R speaker with and without Sub,

 

Volume on the sub was about 60%

Cross over about 80 to 90Hz

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Once again, good on your for the effort.

It's quite obvious that the about 105Hz peak in the right channel could do with some EQ, I think that looks and would sound a bit nasty.

And the left channel has a massive dip between about 50 to 75Hz and I think the best and easiest way to fix this would be to add another subwoofer somewhere else in the room, but that could also cause other issues.

Are you using the crossover filter on the subwoofer, if so at what frequency?

Edited October 10, 2024 by Satanica

[Keith_W]

Some tips for posting graphs from REW. 

 

1. In REW, edit the legends by right clicking on the graph (column on the left). Rename it to something that makes sense, e.g. "L Speaker + Sub". 

2. If you want to add text to subs, screenshot it and paste it into MS Paint (comes with Windows). This is how - click on the camera icon and then click on the clipboard button. Launch Paint and hit Ctrl-V to paste. Then draw or type what you want on the graph. 

 

Anyway, on to your graph. Whenever I see a graph, I mentally add an "ideal" curve that looks like this: 

 

 

From the ideal curve it is easy to see what is sticking above and what is sticking below. So some comments: 

 

L speaker + sub: big dip from a room mode at 60Hz. The only way to fill this would be either reposition the sub or add more subs. 

 

R speaker + sub: huge 10dB peak at 110Hz, whether you have a sub or not. The sub adds an additional peak at 80Hz. These are room modes. If you were to look at your waterfall or spectro, you would find that these would resonate for a pretty long time. Peaks are more audible than dips, and this would sound like a one note boom. The best way to fix these would be to EQ them out. Notice that since the peaks occur with both speaker and subwoofer, having the DSP on the sub alone won't fix the peak on the speaker - hence my comment in the other thread about why DSP is better implemented upstream of the sub (preferably upstream of the DAC). 

 

L + R inc sub: you can see that above 400Hz or so the correlation between the left and right speaker is not so great. This will affect stereo imaging. You can view the IACC (Inter-Aural Cross Correlation) that measures how much the left channel correlates with the right. In REW, it's Tools-IACC, then choose two graphs. An IACC of 1 means perfect correlation (nobody gets an IACC of 1). IACC of > 0.9 is "excellent", IACC of > 0.8 is "good", and anything below is poor. The best way to fix IACC is through physical means - reposition speakers, room treatment, etc. DSP can improve the IACC, but requires a lot of skill and thought because upper frequency correction is a minefield. Mine is 0.94, mostly achieved through speaker positioning + some DSP. 

 

There is also a peak at 10kHz which is seen in both speakers. This will be a speaker issue, probably a tweeter resonance. You will most definitely hear it, but just because it sticks out does not mean that it will sound bad. It will add more "air" but if there is too much of it, it will sound sibilant. So whether it is a problem or not depends on your music and your preference. 

[JkSpinner]

48 minutes ago, Keith_W said:

This will affect stereo imaging

Thanks Keith.

i am happy to look at DSP etc at a later date, as well as additional subs.  Do you have any recommendations for a DSP device between the source and Amp, or between amp and speakers.  Is there such a thing.  I am not looking to change amps just yet.

I cannot fix my room, I can only improve on it, and I am OK with that. My room is far from perfect, and far from symmetrical.  On the left side, I have a large 3.5m glass sliding door that extends from the listening position to the front wall (covered with a blind when listening to music)   Then a 1m brick wall at 45deg right beside the listening position.  The brick wall is actually a 2nd first reflection point.

the right side has a side wall that extends about 2m from the front wall, beside the speaker, then I have a open wall to the house entrance and hallway, a highly reflective room.  I have a very leaky room.    The distance from each speaker to the side wall or window is also different, as the 45 deg brick wall moves the listening position off centre.  I cannot change this.  I have moved the hi fi off centre to centre it with the lounge, and not the room

i am looking to trial 1st and 2nd reflection point panels, either absorption or diffusion / reflection at these points, to try and create some symmetry.  Symmetry between the speakers and the LP.  I have already played around with this, it does work a bit.  But my room is another discussion, just trying to improve my bass a bit, then will move on to the next thing.

 

i have been using your suggested curves for my research Phil, although your original one was probably 3 -5db higher.  I had three panels on the back wall, one one the brick wall, and one at each 1st reflection point in these measurements, with diffusion at the front corners.  When I reduce the absorption panels to four, and use the diffusion/ reflective panels at the first reflection point, it list the midrange a bit.  That tick at 10k has only happened since I started playing around.  I thought I would put that to the back, as you cannot notice it.  My system use to be bright, but it’s not anymore.

i have also moved four panels to the entrance hall way, with only two panels in the media room, and pretty much had very similar results as with all six panels in the media room, which is odd, so some more playing around there.

i need to buy two more hybrid diffusion panels to place in the 1st reflection point, as I did prefer the SQ that way, then play around with the absorption panels some more.

so lots to do, but through all of this, I am getting a pretty good picture of what I prefer, what works and what doesn’t.

[JkSpinner]

1 hour ago, Satanica said:

if so at what frequency

It’s was around 80-90hz

[Keith_W]

2 hours ago, JkSpinner said:

Thanks Keith.

i am happy to look at DSP etc at a later date, as well as additional subs.  Do you have any recommendations for a DSP device between the source and Amp, or between amp and speakers.  Is there such a thing.  

 

Firstly you need to ask yourself what you are trying to fix with DSP. DSP has its limitations. It is great for fixing bass issues, in fact it is by far the best tool. It is not so great for fixing upper frequency asymmetry between speakers. It can help a little bit, but DSP can not move walls. At this point you should ask yourself whether you hear what you measure. The microphone hears things that you don't hear, and likewise you hear things that the microphone does not hear. DO NOT obsess too much over what the microphone says, especially if you are not skilled at taking measurements and interpreting them.

 

From what you have posted, I can tell you for a fact that you have bass issues. Whether you have upper frequency issues - I don't know. I would need to know a lot more about how well you took the measurement and preferably watch you doing it to make sure it was done properly with no mistakes. 

 

DSP devices need to be inserted upstream of the DAC to avoid an unnecessary ADC-DAC step. There are two types of DSP - hardware and software. The most popular hardware DSP unit is MiniDSP, but there are others e.g. DEQX. Software DSP requires the signal to pass through a computing device of some sort, e.g. PC/Mac/Linux. In general, software DSP is far more powerful and flexible BUT it requires a computer in the signal path, and computers have their own issues which make them consumer unfriendly when used in hi-fi. 

 

All DSP products have a learning curve. Some are easier to use than others, and they achieve this by automation (i.e. the software makes decisions for you). I personally don't like the idea of an algorithm making decisions for me, I want to decide for myself what to correct and what to leave alone. So you also have to ask yourself how much pain you want to endure and whether you are willing to learn about it.