Steever Posted October 7, 2024 Posted October 7, 2024 (edited) There’s a possibility over the next few months the Steever household may be making a move to a rural location. The aim is to be as self sufficient as possible, including a solar array, batteries and generator back up. We’ll shortly begin meeting with system designers/vendors. What are some key things I need to be considering and asking them to ensure my system has something at least as good as the state supplied power? Cheers. Edited October 7, 2024 by Steever
Addicted to music Posted October 8, 2024 Posted October 8, 2024 Consider the Tesla Powerwall 3. its a no brainer. Has a built in inverter configured with 3 6.6kw MPPTs and a 13.5kwh battery. An all in one battery DC coupler system. All you now need is the PV panels to get it going. If you going for the hot water heat pumps, can i suggest the Sanden 315lt that consist of a Stainless Steel tank, dont fall for anything less. 1 1
grammefriday Posted October 8, 2024 Posted October 8, 2024 I second the Sanden. We went with this when I upgraded a couple of years ago 1
Addicted to music Posted October 9, 2024 Posted October 9, 2024 (edited) 10 hours ago, grammefriday said: I second the Sanden. We went with this when I upgraded a couple of years ago The beauty about the Sanden is that the heat pump is separate to the tank. The tank is made here with quality stainless steel. It's the same people who make the Aquamax. There is no backup heat element, so be considerate to the rest of the family and shower quickly. It's also the only manufacturer that doesn't hide the recovery rate: 315Lts from 17C to 63C in 4hrs at @ ambient of 20C. now this will be longer in colder climates. If you have a heat pump for hot water storage and you have PV, its the best of both worlds that beats a home battery in cost recovery. if I had to consider a heat pump, it's definite tick for the Sanden regardless of cost. Edited October 9, 2024 by Addicted to music 2
playdough Posted December 13, 2024 Posted December 13, 2024 Interesting I’ve been an off grid specialist for more than 20 years and have seen a few things during that time. There are a lot of “all in one” solutions out there but have preferred to install separate components as in solar controllers, batteries and inverter/chargers,. A lot of the new gear are toys in comparison to a “real deal you can rely on” Any given system is engineered to satisfy the actual or projected demand and be able to grow if required, especially with regards to solar input A 5kw inverter/charger is a good start. I use mainly the Victron multi plus, the older model and have dozens off them out there happily powering houses. They are robust and reliable draw little power at idle and run a welder with ease. Good clean sign wave form, excellent for powering a large hifi I use dc couple direct to the batteries from a mppt usually 2 controllers as if one fails, there is a second one in service, while a repair is sort. 2 x 100a or 2 x 60a or with a 48v battery, 10kw of modules. The Victron solarsmart 250v input mppt is a go to device, relatively cheap, available everywhere. Victron power equipment has freeware user interface and easy to program, unlike some others. Generator or grid power interface is easy to program for best battery life and uninterruptible power to the house. If anyone wants to know I’ll get into more detail and go on to batteries……. 1
playdough Posted December 16, 2024 Posted December 16, 2024 OK, so building such a beast as described above,,,,,,delivery tomorrow on this set up. I can go into proven earthing methodology as well as connection strategy to best effect a really nice clean power supply, arguably very much better than the actual retail mains power supply. (The holy grail of HiFi Power Supplies) I use one myself and have done for the better part of 15 years,,,,,that one is an SMA Sunny Island 4Kva with a 48v battery and uses a SMA Sunny Boy ac coupling to charge the battery, via the ac output of the power inverter. 3
playdough Posted December 16, 2024 Posted December 16, 2024 (edited) Ever wanted to view the open beating heart of an Off Grid Power System worthy of running your stereo rig ?, here is one. It's on the small side, a 100A controller and 3000w continuous Inverter charger, for operation at 24v nominal. It has a 24v direct from battery supply switchboard, a generator inlet with double pole breaker, a main ac 230v switch (breaker), solar string isolator/double pole dc breakers, main battery switchgear not shown. Any questions ?, what I can say is it's earthing regime is "zero point transient mitigation" from a single main earth stake.......the whole thing is mounted on an aluminium backing plane (I don't need any more work, so don't ask) I've left a fault, can anyone see it ? Edited December 16, 2024 by playdough 2
playdough Posted December 16, 2024 Posted December 16, 2024 1 hour ago, mr-happy-pants said: Battery connections reversed? Well spotted, on the controller. Giving it reverse polarity will destroy it. It's corrected, deliver tomorrow
Assisi Posted December 16, 2024 Posted December 16, 2024 It is one thing to be as a feel good to be self sufficient and not be on the grid. That means that you make no contribution to the overall support of the grid. The grid needs support and is already significantly compromised because of poor design. If you live where water supply passes your property you will pay water rates whether you use the water or not. To me it is community support obligation. The same with power. If supply passes your property to me you should be required to make a contribution. If your new place has no supply fine. Enough of me banging on my hobby horse. I have solar, a battery, a heat pump, and a house regenerator plus supply. The solar is Enphase with individual panel inverters that are excellent especially if you have some shading as I do. The value of Enphase is the software control. The battery is Redback. QLD company. Excellent and reliable product. The heat pump is Sanden 315lt as mentioned by @Addicted to music and others above. The Sanden runs on a candle. The House regenerator was an indulgence to solve a supply over voltage matter that no longer exists. John
playdough Posted December 16, 2024 Posted December 16, 2024 39 minutes ago, Assisi said: It is one thing to be as a feel good to be self sufficient and not be on the grid Not really accurate, 99% of the Consumers serviced with this type of thing really do live well away from the retail reticulated supplies, and like their HiFi. I could write a book about them, the good, the bad and the ugly. I was trying to follow the OP and show how to derive a quality off grid supply for a stereo. 43 minutes ago, Assisi said: I have solar, a battery, a heat pump, and a house regenerator plus supply. The solar is Enphase with individual panel inverters that are excellent especially if you have some shading as I do. The value of Enphase is the software control. The battery is Redback. QLD company. Excellent and reliable product. The heat pump is Sanden 315lt as mentioned by @Addicted to music and others above. The Sanden runs on a candle. Sounds like a good set up,,,,,,,can it be operated easily in a retail power blackout and stand alone ?
Assisi Posted December 16, 2024 Posted December 16, 2024 31 minutes ago, playdough said: Not really accurate, 99% of the Consumers serviced with this type of thing really do live well away from the retail reticulated supplies, and like their HiFi. I could write a book about them, the good, the bad and the ugly. I was trying to follow the OP and show how to derive a quality off grid supply for a stereo. Sounds like a good set up,,,,,,,can it be operated easily in a retail power blackout and stand alone ? The OP did not say that supply was or was not available. My questions are with situations where supply is available yet there is a decision to not connect to supply because it is a feel good. Great I am off the grid. I am a good person. I think not so. Where I live, I am aware of numerous situations where there is supply. No connection though, winter comes and on goes the generator sometimes for days. That is not a feel good. If the OP does not have supply, then what is proposed is fine. Otherwise, I have questions. My situation is it all depends of how much charge is in the battery. Only some house circuits such as lights and fridge are enabled. Not the audio or induction cooking. Whilst power interruptions until recently where frequent they have become less so. I have not been overly inconvenienced because of the benefit of the battery. Great investment. My perceptive is that any body who gets solar today must have a battery. Otherwise you are basically giving your power away to the supplier. Already I am told that some suppliers are charging individuals for the power that they feed into the grid. Or they are limited in some circumstances as to what they can fed into the grid because of grid instability issues. The grid has not been planned properly for the prevalence of solar and fed in. The difficulties will become more prevalent as grid issues exacerbate. John
Volunteer sir sanders zingmore Posted December 16, 2024 Volunteer Posted December 16, 2024 This thread is drifting off topic and looks like it may stray into the political. Let’s not do that please 1
playdough Posted December 16, 2024 Posted December 16, 2024 9 hours ago, Assisi said: My questions are with situations where supply is available yet there is a decision to not connect to supply because it is a feel good. Great I am off the grid. I am a good person. I think not so. Hi John, Yea, nah. The idea is to derive a power supply supposedly or in actuality "better than the mains" as in purity of waveform, power factor at unity and stability of voltage, to run a stereo. Is this not the goal ? I'm not sure where your "feel good" comment comes from, consumers feel better after an off grid power system installation is completed as they have a mains power supply, where they didn't before. playdough. PS, try a technical question
lucmor444 Posted December 16, 2024 Posted December 16, 2024 I'm interested in hearing from those more knowable as to whether battery storage (obviously coupled with solar panels) is approaching, or in the next couple of years, a cost effective solution for reducing power bills.? I am soon moving to a new house without solar panels and with changing feed in tariffs, grid capacity issues etc am wondering whether panels are now appropriate on their own or make more sense if matched with battery storage?
playdough Posted December 16, 2024 Posted December 16, 2024 (edited) 8 minutes ago, lucmor444 said: am soon moving to a new house without solar panels and with changing feed in tariffs Really happy to answer this question and I shall return,,,,,,,,,,have to install above "Off Grid PS" I'll take a photo. I'll say this though, it's normally cheaper to maintain a grid connection, than a backup generator,,,,and Grid supply issues, didn't exist before the political landscape changed to net 0 and closure of "large base load and frequency governance machines" started. Edited December 16, 2024 by playdough 2
lucmor444 Posted December 16, 2024 Posted December 16, 2024 Thanks Matthew - looking forward to your response. Not planning to go off grid, just to find the most cost effective solution. Looking to the future (say 5 years or so) would be hoping an EV with next gen batteries and V2H would also be in the garage. 1
Assisi Posted December 17, 2024 Posted December 17, 2024 2 hours ago, playdough said: Is this not the goal ? Yes. I will always have mains supply. It is probable that no power regardless of source is pure or clean. The key is what can you do about improving things? As I say below in my signature power is the beginning. I understand that in simple terms what you hear coming from the speakers is amplified power. Clean power is required. To attempt to try to have “quality” power for my audio, several things have been done. The pole transformer was replaced with a bigger newer one. I was not responsible for the upgrade. I consider that was a benefit. Initially the taps on the transformer were not balanced properly. House supply was often in the mid 260s volts. Not good. That is why I had a whole of house regenerator installed. The house sees only 230/232 volts regardless of supply. The taps were eventually balanced and supply seems to be approximate high 230 volts. I was responsible for the the re tapping to be done. I also had a separate connection from the switch board to the audio with quality cable. I have a serious power conditioner. Benefit yes. Several other smaller tweaks are implemented that for me are beneficial. For example, good plugs and supports, and grounding. I am not aware that my solar or battery impact the quality of power that goes to the audio. John 1
playdough Posted December 17, 2024 Posted December 17, 2024 (edited) 12 hours ago, lucmor444 said: Not planning to go off grid, just to find the most cost effective solution. Looking to the future (say 5 years or so) would be hoping an EV with next gen batteries and V2H would also be in the garage Hi Stephen Having the Mains connected is a bonus. In the past I've advised not to overkill or spend more than you are likely to re coup over the 12/20 year lifespan of the solar modules/inverter and batteries if installed. This means installing a set of the newest most efficient solar modules and recent generation of high voltage string Inverter. If there is minimal shading and cost is well considered a straight up string inverter will be best. The other Seperate converter at every module type install can make the the job quite expensive. Some value a tree overhanging the roof, dropping leaves in the gutters and shading the array over the hv string type of installation, I'll accommodate at a nominated fee, more work and a warning it may not be able to be fixed,,,,,,,,,out of warranty. These are normally quite special individuals I see them coming a mile away, it's the shoes. The other problem associated with the separate hardware converters at every module, 10 years down the track, if something goes bad, there is zero back up, no plugs match, pinouts are different, new generation system has made the older system totally not supported,,,,,,,,which won't talk to the downstairs monitor,,,,,,,,,,gaaaaaaaahhhhh, terrible. I don't even get on the roof to replace a dead h v string Inverter, unless I have to. The other,,,mmmmm,,, total re do, every module, cabling, everything. Batteries. For the cost wairy, as in recoup of cost over life expectancy. If you are on grid, have a modest string of modules that match your running loads and have learned to manage the daytime output of the solar array, minimized night time loads, then no, don't get a battery. An on grid battery that runs key loads at night to save a little more power by using the few Kwh's battery in an all in one box on wall system. Certainly won't do anything for EV charging. The next step can be an off grid power supply connected to the mains as a back up running some key loads, which, may well be stereo (I re address this later). or It can run the whole house, when sized correctly. It does not feed the grid and requires no special metering or application to the Network. EV, The battery in the car will be most likely 4 times the capacity of the home battery or much more,,,,,,and be some crazy high voltage, like 600vDC or something lethal. Ideally I'd use the car battery to supply night time loads,,,,,,however we don't live in an ideal world., No you cannot charge an EV at night with the home (teeny tiny) battery because well it's not close to being a 20% charge, you can but would you ? If it's a cloudy day,,,,,,,,next day,,,,,,, the juice comes from the fossilized dinosaur poop burning Power Station anyway. Off peak type retail power for EV Charging or, I've seen direct connect DC type charging connected to a string solar modules, so again, a nice string of modules, when you get the EV just so they are fresh and latest tech solar modules, this might be an install, just for the car,,,,,,Oh, a reminder, to our PM mainly, no it won't charge the car at night,,,,,,,,,,if the car is at work all day, might no be worth the additional solar,,,,,,, playdough @Assisi Special,,,,,,,,,I'll get back to your question tomorrow,,,,,,,,Mrs wants to watch a movie, off grid Edited December 17, 2024 by playdough 1
playdough Posted December 18, 2024 Posted December 18, 2024 (edited) So in it goes. The array went alright, going to put 2 more legs on the front, cement and bolt, to be happy it'll do the test of time in high wind country side NW Tas. Earthing methodology. It has a star point ground, so a single earth stake to the main earth link 6mm2 copper. The main earth link is bonded (cabled to) the main Neutral link. Called a multiple earth neutral. There is a 6mm2 earth from the solar array, with all the array. Components bonded to each other with star washers and other perforated stainless shims and cable. All the components in the system, Solar array frame, modules Inverter/charger, MPPT controller, copper plumbing and importantly the backing plane the system is bolted to is all solidly lug/6mm2 cable back to the main earth link. In new homes with cement slabs I like to solidly earth the reo steelwork as well. Good earthing is essential, for the quietest of ground/earthplane. The battery is fully isolated and not grounded, negative or positive. The mains side of the Inverter is also fully isolated from the battery, between the primary and secondary transformer winding. DC from the solar array is not grounded. System is in and working, the building it all lives in is small. This system is a replacement actually and an old system 25 years come off there. An Australian Plasmatronics PL 60 and 24v Latronics Inverter 1800w, working perfectly Battery is a Sonnenshein A600Drifit/1200Ah 24v tube plate gel OZPV. It is 15 years old not missed a beat. I'll box the battery, a few days to go, wiring. Edited December 18, 2024 by playdough 3
playdough Posted December 18, 2024 Posted December 18, 2024 This is a station I monitor/built. 1 phase 15Kva, generator backed. Corinna Pub and cabins. Last 2 days. Sunny days. The off grid can be scaled, backed with generator in this case and Lithium Battery.
playdough Posted December 20, 2024 Posted December 20, 2024 On 17/12/2024 at 11:17 AM, Assisi said: Yes. I will always have mains supply. It is probable that no power regardless of source is pure or clean. The key is what can you do about improving things? Having a mains supply is necessary to operate, electrically. The only things that pollute the mains waveform are other loads and local supply transformers tapchange position. AC coupled solar on the mains are legislated to comply with an number of electrical parameters and limits, that and be complementary to the ac waveform. Having your own HV/LV transformer on a private pole, further improves the situation, in essence an isolation point from other consumers. Having a, voltage regulation and sinewave regenerator of substance (Kva rating) powering a stereo only, is one way of solving the "worthy" power supply problems. An off grid power system is very much another optional way of having a "worthy" ac waveform, with incrementally adjustable voltage and remote monitor ability. With a HiFi it's surprising what a well thought out 1000w Inverter/battery/solar install can do and how very quiet and busto it can be. In Australia, there are a few brands that come to mind, Latronics, Selectronics, SMA, Victron have been workhorses of stable waveform, power and sound very well. If you have seen the difference on an oscilloscope between a fairly normal retail mains and an inverter output waveform ,,,,it's a real thing
Assisi Posted December 20, 2024 Posted December 20, 2024 I have made a reasonable investment in power with various things such as Solar, battery etc. The one difference to most, is a whole of house regenerator. It maintains the house at a constant voltage regardless of supply. It is designated as having filtering aspects. The specifics I do not know. I am told that it smooths out some harmonics in the supply and isolates me from any surrounding power impacts. It is interesting to note that before the regenerator was installed, I replaced a LED light every few months. Nothing since. Right now, the house voltage is 230V whereas supply is 242V. The lower house voltage means that I am not paying for the the higher supply. My limited perception of a specific regenerator powering the audio setup is that there is benefit. Though there is maybe something missing. That is why I have conditioner. Ideal. John 1
playdough Posted December 21, 2024 Posted December 21, 2024 23 hours ago, Assisi said: It is interesting to note that before the regenerator was installed, I replaced a LED light every few months. Nothing since. Right now, the house voltage is 230V whereas supply is 242V. The lower house voltage means that I am not paying for the the higher supply. My limited perception of a specific regenerator powering the audio setup is that there is benefit. Though there is maybe something missing. That is why I have conditioner. Ideal. Hi John Think of a DC powered Inverter for off grid and in particular 3+ KVA 20Kg very chunky devices as your very own regenerator, at one tenth of the cost. I run my own place at 220v as the inverter output has incremental volts adjustment and found anything that has a transformer based supply of operation runs cooler and quieter, with no detriment otherwise. Yes and no blown electrical gear home wide for the relaxed ac voltage. Have a nice Christmas. 1
Assisi Posted December 21, 2024 Posted December 21, 2024 38 minutes ago, playdough said: Hi John Think of a DC powered Inverter for off grid and in particular 3+ KVA 20Kg very chunky devices as your very own regenerator, at one tenth of the cost. I run my own place at 220v as the inverter output has incremental volts adjustment and found anything that has a transformer based supply of operation runs cooler and quieter, with no detriment otherwise. Yes and no blown electrical gear home wide for the relaxed ac voltage. Have a nice Christmas. Hi Matthew, My solar is micro inverters. Many trees. The Regenerator is only a few Kgs and is attached to the wall above the Switch Board. Not much more in cost than your inverter. I cannot have the Regenerator set to 220V. On some circuits there is a 4V drop. Drills in the workshop would not start and the OH fan struggled. The audio is 230V as it is straight back to the Switch Board. I wish you and everyone else an enjoyable Christmas. John 1
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