Do Isoacoustic GAIA feet (or others) make a difference

[JkSpinner]

I know many have an opinion on this.  About one month ago, I made several upgrades to my system, all over the same weekend. (Not advised I know - but what do you do when all the boxes turn up on the same Friday). One of the changes was a set of Gaia III feet.  I did not do any before and after listening.  However after several upgrades, there was a noticeable improvement in SQ.  Anyway, through this whole process, I perceived that my bass has decreased a bit, maybe I perceived it, or maybe I noticed it after several pointed I out that I was lacking bass when I measured and shared the results - who knows.  I recently read a post by another member who recently added Gaia feet and then noticed a reduction in bass, so I thought I would measure.  Now I am no expert in understanding these graphs.  The speakers were on GAIA feet on 20mm timber board (so I could move them around), then they were simply on the four spikes straight onto the carpeted concrete floor.  I measured before and after, speakers in the same position, nothing else had changed.

attached are the results.  
the top line in both graphs is with GAIA feet.  Looks like everything has increased across the spectrum (bass, midrange and treble) with the feet.

so many people perceive there to be difference after they installed the GAIA’s but here is a measurement that clearly shows a difference, I am not sure how minor or major the difference in the measurement is, but there is a clear difference.  One graph represents the left speaker, the other the right.  
 

I did several before and after measurements making other changes, such as diffusion panels in the front corner, and moving the speakers back and forth.  I was mainly looking for the effects on bass with particular changes.

Edited October 3, 2024 by JkSpinner

[sir sanders zingmore]

They look like pretty big differences to me.
I would think that it’s pretty hard to say the differences are caused only by the Gaias. 
This is my reasoning: presumably you had to move the speakers to install the Gaias, unless you put them back in precisely the same spot, that will affect the measurements. 
Also, unless the Gaias were replacing feet with identical height, you will have moved the speakers vertically which will also affect things. 
Finally, did you move the microphone at all between measurements?

[Xecuter]

I had a bit of exaggeration in my bass response on my atc 150s when the plinths were on the ground. I put them on Gaia I a few weeks ago and the floor is no longer adding to the bass. Bass quantity was reduced but tightened up considerably.

 

I also found I preferred my seating position a few inches lower than normal seating position. Now with the Gaia 1 I find the stage is lifted and the seating position is perfect.

 

No regrets for me.

I should measure but like @sir sanders zingmore mentioned you really need to be particular about the position to see if it is quantifiable. 

[crisis]

My initial result from the Gaia 3s on my Monitor Audio Silver 8s was there was more detail and air around instruments and notes. Better imaging and slightly improved soundstage. I lost a heap of bass, but I had also moved my speakers forward. Returning them to their mostly original position, the bass has returned but not to the same level.

I have a couple of theories.

1.      When some frequencies improve the opposite (treble vs bass) may appear to be diminished as the balance has changed.

2.      What I perceive as a drop I bass may be cleaning up of the bass and reduced overhang.

3.      The feet make the cabinets wobble and this is not conducive to keeping drivers firmly in place. Eg energy from the drivers is transferred into motion of the cabinets.

Edited October 3, 2024 by crisis

[JkSpinner]

6 hours ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

move the speakers

The speakers were in the same spot, give or take an inch.  I had to shuffle a little to move the timber, but I shuffled back a little, it was very close.

They def sat higher with the GAIA feet on the timber.

microphone was in the exact same spot, I conducted the tests within 15 mins of one another

[David A]

You can see how the Iso Acoustics Gaia II feet performed in this lab test of many popular iso feet, incl: Stillpoints Ultra's and AV Showroom EVP's to name a few - https://carbide.audio/measurements/survey-of-audio-footer-designs/

 

Edited October 4, 2024 by David A

[Satanica]

4 hours ago, JkSpinner said:

The speakers were in the same spot, give or take an inch.  I had to shuffle a little to move the timber, but I shuffled back a little, it was very close.

They def sat higher with the GAIA feet on the timber.

microphone was in the exact same spot, I conducted the tests within 15 mins of one another

I'm not saying that the ISO Acoustics isolators don't make a measurable difference, but if the speaker isn't measured in the same spot, then it's impossible to know as an inch in any direction should be significant. Also, masurements above a certain frequency are stochastic meaning there will be an element of randomness to them.

[evil c]

It is well known that the Gaia's make a positive difference. 

With the effective isolation, bass is indeed clearer and less bloated .

Imaging is much improved also .

I don't need to resort to scientific testing,.my ears have rarely failed me!,

If you can afford them, they are a very worthwhile upgrade. 

Edited October 3, 2024 by evil c

[playdough]

Harmonic decay plots, before and after. Used 12 off Sorbothane vibration dampers on 2 pairs of 21' bass drivers in 100Kg each enclosures. Plots show less reverberation magnitude and smoother magnitude response after the fact. Listening proved there was tighter bass and less floor/speaker interaction, on a suspended hardwood floor.  

Edit, I would imagine any floor isolator of whatever Brand would have similar effect.

Well worthwhile and a go to on any system installed on a suspended timber floor. 

 

 

Edited October 3, 2024 by playdough

[playdough]

1 hour ago, evil c said:

I don't need to resort to scientific testing,.my ears have rarely failed me!,

Scientific testing will reinforce what your ears tell you Clive. 

I echo your testament   

[JkSpinner]

4 hours ago, evil c said:

scientific testing

Hi Evil, I was not trying to prove anything, since I had the measuring gear out, thought I would see if the difference I perceived was measurable.

i agree with you approach

[evil c]

4 hours ago, playdough said:

Scientific testing will reinforce what your ears tell you Clive. 

I echo your testament   

 

1 hour ago, JkSpinner said:

Hi Evil, I was not trying to prove anything, since I had the measuring gear out, thought I would see if the difference I perceived was measurable.

i agree with you approach

Easy guys, I'm old school and don't have enough time on this earth to be testing everything!

I have @frednork to call upon,  when the mood strikes me to do any  testing .

But my point is,  measurements will only get you so far, and not always relevant to actually improving or discerning any lift in performance. 

But please continue with testing, by all means. 

Edit: l do use IsoAcoustics Gaia 1  under my speakers, and The Orea range under most of my components. 

They do not work under turntables as a rule I've found.

Need much lower frequency isolation. 

Edited October 4, 2024 by evil c

[JkSpinner]

11 minutes ago, evil c said:

Easy guys, I'm old school

Me too, but not just old school, I also like simple.  My response was meant to be.  I spent hours walking and crawling around my room listening, getting to know my room, I have a pretty good relationship with it now.  To a point that I refused to buy a mic to measure, but in the end I succumb to the pressure and bought one.  
But now that I have one, I am doing several before and after measures, and moving things around and doing more.

i did not need it for acoustic treatment, contrary to popular belief, everywhere I thought I needed a panel, there is a panel.  But I am finding it valuable in moving speakers around, and moving panels around to get the best fit.

but I really only look at two of the charts, those waterfall charts are way to complex.

[parrasaw]

18 hours ago, David A said:

You can see how the Iso Acoustics Gaia II feet performed in this lab test of many popular iso feet, incl: Stack Audio and AV Showroom EVP's to name a few - https://carbide.audio/measurements/survey-of-audio-footer-designs/

Very interesting tests and results.

Thank you for posting the link @David A.

The study didn't actually include testing of the Stack Audio speaker isolators, which is a pity. 

 

[almikel]

In a previous thread on the benefit of Stack Audio isolation products, my posts regarding the benefit of isolation under kit without moving parts (eg amplifiers) got the thread locked down by moderators ... so I'll be cautious in this response.

 

IMVHO:

• isolating/decoupling speakers from transmitting speaker cabinet vibrations to the floor/room structure is a good thing
• isolating/decoupling delicate machinery like turntables from structural vibrations is also a good thing. This may also apply to CD/DVD spinners,
• it requires some scientific justification as to why isolation products placed under devices without moving parts (eg amplifiers) would improve the sound

 

Ages ago I looked into Sorbothane isolation under my TD18's and between my PSE144s sitting on top of my TD18s...

My investigation discovered several things:

• there's a bunch of maths relating damping, the frequencies of vibration you're trying to damp, the mass sitting on the sorbothane, the durometer of the sorbothane, etc
• get the maths wrong, and the sorbothane can increase vibration via a resonant behaviour
• durometer of the sorbothane is often not available

 

This thread has piqued my interest again for placing some sorbothane discs under my TD18s currently sitting directly on timber flooring.

 

Mike

Edited October 4, 2024 by almikel
clarification

[almikel]

Just measured the mass of my TD18's and PSEs:

• TD18 speaker - 50kg
• PSE144 speaker - 10kg - which sits on top of the TD18 speaker

Mike

[David A]

4 hours ago, parrasaw said:

Very interesting tests and results.

Thank you for posting the link @David A.

The study didn't actually include testing of the Stack Audio speaker isolators, which is a pity. 

 

 

YW. I had to go back and have a look at the photo of the feet in that shootout, and you're right. But yeah it would have been interesting if the Stack Audio EQ's were included. Though a fellow SNA'er whose ears I trust compared the EQ's to the AV Showroom EVP's which came 2nd in that shootout, and said he preferred the EVP's fyi.

 

Edited October 4, 2024 by David A

[crisis]

13 hours ago, evil c said:

It is well known that the Gaia's make a positive difference. 

With the effective isolation, bass is indeed clearer and less bloated .

Imaging is much improved also .

I don't need to resort to scientific testing,.my ears have rarely failed me!,

If you can afford them, they are a very worthwhile upgrade. 

While objective parameters like imaging can be easily determined by ears, our ears tell us mostly what we like the sound of. The increase in bass I heard from my amp and cable upgrades was reduced by the Gaias. Now I don't know if what happened was a result of less bloating, reduced bass or an increase in upper frequencies. I truly believe that the wobbly Gaias have a negative effect on bass however I can only really tell that by measurements. Hence why I have lashed out on a UMIK 1 to try to see what is going on.

[playdough]

18 hours ago, almikel said:

Ages ago I looked into Sorbothane isolation under my TD18's and between my PSE144s sitting on top of my TD18s...

Well worth the effort.

If anything the bumpers stop the horns moving about if knocked when cleaning, as it takes quite a lot of tape and measure work to get those set up to the mm

Used methodology like this for many years and quite like my growing collection of squishy speaker decoupling bumpers/sheets. Go to for all of them.

18 hours ago, almikel said:

get the maths wrong, and the sorbothane can increase vibration via a resonant behaviour

So unlikely ..... like really ? Don't let that stop you  

18 hours ago, almikel said:

durometer of the sorbothane is often not available

When you get onto the supplier, it's a matter of "if local stock is held" or "backorder from the US" otherwise the most expensive bumper for 50Kg was less than thirty clams. Using 12 on the bass plus the PSE mini bumpers was in all practically an investment in SQ,,,,cheap

Negative aspects is that I have wrecked a few as they are "sticky" and if overloaded, pop off the metal stud or simply get crushed and disintegrate, so a little square of carpet under the most heavily loaded bumpers aid moving the beast enclosures over 100Kg. Trial and error approach.

Have a good day

Matt

Edited October 4, 2024 by playdough

[frednork]

On 03/10/2024 at 11:59 AM, JkSpinner said:

I know many have an opinion on this.  About one month ago, I made several upgrades to my system, all over the same weekend. (Not advised I know - but what do you do when all the boxes turn up on the same Friday). One of the changes was a set of Gaia III feet.  I did not do any before and after listening.  However after several upgrades, there was a noticeable improvement in SQ.  Anyway, through this whole process, I perceived that my bass has decreased a bit, maybe I perceived it, or maybe I noticed it after several pointed I out that I was lacking bass when I measured and shared the results - who knows.  I recently read a post by another member who recently added Gaia feet and then noticed a reduction in bass, so I thought I would measure.  Now I am no expert in understanding these graphs.  The speakers were on GAIA feet on 20mm timber board (so I could move them around), then they were simply on the four spikes straight onto the carpeted concrete floor.  I measured before and after, speakers in the same position, nothing else had changed.

attached are the results.  
the top line in both graphs is with GAIA feet.  Looks like everything has increased across the spectrum (bass, midrange and treble) with the feet.

so many people perceive there to be difference after they installed the GAIA’s but here is a measurement that clearly shows a difference, I am not sure how minor or major the difference in the measurement is, but there is a clear difference.  One graph represents the left speaker, the other the right.  
 

I did several before and after measurements making other changes, such as diffusion panels in the front corner, and moving the speakers back and forth.  I was mainly looking for the effects on bass with particular changes.

Are the measurements unmolested? For if they are you are suggesting that a 3-4 db increase in amplitude across the entire  range is possible due to the addition of gaia's .  As good as gaia's may be they are not capable of that.  Would suggest you have changed the gain at the mic or at the amp. There does appear to be a difference between them though but not that much, remember any change in speaker or mic position will change things but less so at lower frequencies.  This graph may not show much change  even if you are picking up an audible difference.

[JkSpinner]

7 hours ago, frednork said:

changed the gain

Nope, measurements not molested or butchered.  Measurements done one after the other.  Nothing changed.  That is why I posted it, I thought is was significant.   Measurement 1 done, feet removed by tilting the speakers back and forth, so speaker stayed in the same position.  I had to move the speaker a couple inches to remove the timber plinths, but I moved them back after, installed the original speaker spikes and took the second measurement.

so speakers were dam close to exact position for both measurements.

differences being

speaker height - speakers probably 1-2 inches taller with the GAIA feet due to the feet + the plinth, plus the timber plinth would make a slight difference I guess.

Speaker position - Dam close

[Satanica]

9 hours ago, frednork said:

Are the measurements unmolested? For if they are you are suggesting that a 3-4 db increase in amplitude across the entire  range is possible due to the addition of gaia's .  As good as gaia's may be they are not capable of that.  Would suggest you have changed the gain at the mic or at the amp. There does appear to be a difference between them though but not that much, remember any change in speaker or mic position will change things but less so at lower frequencies.  This graph may not show much change  even if you are picking up an audible difference.

You are absolutely right, ISO Acoustics don't automatically double the cone area of every driver in your speakers or multiply your amplifier power by two. Something must have gone wrong here. When I first Iooked at the measurements I assumed that one had been altered (if that's possible in REW).

Edited October 5, 2024 by Satanica

[Bronal]

A bit late to the party on this one.

 

I had Gaia IIIs under some small, light floorstanders on carpet (with the additional spiked cups) for about three years.  My experience was that they did improve the sound overall, especially in the areas of definition and smearing.  However I found that they were slightly wobbly and difficult to maintain 100% upright.  I put this down to the speakers not exerting enough mass on the Gaias to make a solid connection the carpeted floor.  The cups were essentially useless for the same reason and just floated around on top of the carpet.  For this reason I suggest that people with light speakers and/or carpeted floors think twice before installing Gaias.

 

I haven't heard Gaias on hard floors or with heavier speakers and wonder whether they perform better in those situations.

 

I haven't had the same problems with the AUVA 50s I got to replace the Gaias.  Definition and smearing have been improved, as with the Gaias, plus there is now a solidity to the sound that wasn't there before.

 

My opinion of the Gaias is is that they are a decent enough product for the money, especially used, and at the time they came out were the best solution for a reasonable cost, but they have now been outclassed by the AUVAs.  I notice there is a steady trickle of Gaias for sale.  I wonder if people, like me, have replaced them with AUVAs.

Edited October 6, 2024 by Bronal

[playdough]

Unless there are some more decent before and after measurements done and shown in REW this thread will go around and around in circles. 

A few things are fact, with speaker vibration isolation or "de coupling"

Better less bloated bass.

Perceivably less bass most likely caused by less harmonic distortion, lesser decay times.

More focused less smeared soundstaging.

 

Cheers 

Matt

 

 

Edited October 6, 2024 by playdough

[frednork]

3 hours ago, JkSpinner said:

Nope, measurements not molested or butchered.  Measurements done one after the other.  Nothing changed.  That is why I posted it, I thought is was significant.   Measurement 1 done, feet removed by tilting the speakers back and forth, so speaker stayed in the same position.  I had to move the speaker a couple inches to remove the timber plinths, but I moved them back after, installed the original speaker spikes and took the second measurement.

so speakers were dam close to exact position for both measurements.

differences being

speaker height - speakers probably 1-2 inches taller with the GAIA feet due to the feet + the plinth, plus the timber plinth would make a slight difference I guess.

Speaker position - Dam close

 

Yeah, have done this to myself a couple of times where I thought I had shown some amazing change. On repetition this disappears or some other reason becomes clearer. It is really annoying!   If you really want to prove this happens than you will need to repeat the experiment as an unrepeated test cant be relied upon.

 

It sounds like you have done as well as you can regarding keeping speakers and mic as near as possible to original position and in reality it is almost impossible to keep it exactly the same without a dedicated rig to do so. However the change from a very small difference in speaker position is relatively small but may not look exactly the same especially at low/ no smoothing but very very close.   I suspect the gain has been changed inadvertently at mic gain  or volume control.  For investigating the effect of decoupling you might also use some other types of graphs which show a change in energy over time.

 

Just to be clear,  what you have shown is pretty incredible. A 3 dB SPL  increase is like doubling your power amplifier output.  Please repeat for yourself if you think you did everything correctly.  Look forward to seeing how it goes. 

 

Hope my comments are not discouraging you or others to post results and conclusions. I have made similar errors myself also (too many times), and totally get how you could arrive where you have,  its a lot to get your head around, and it is just a part of getting used to what we would expect to see when we measure and interpreting the graphs correctly.