Reference Speakers

[ozwine007]

I have been looking at speaker reviews etc and I keep coming across the term "Reference Speaker". What is the difference between a "normal speaker" and a "reference speaker"?. New to higher end hifi and slowly putting my system together.

 

If this question has been answered somewhere else, please let me know where on the forums

[StereoNET]

One word, unfortunately. Marketing.

 

There is no "standard" for this stuff, nor any responsibility or accountability for manufacturers. 

What I consider my "reference", and what you or anyone else may, could be world's apart.

 

Whichever product I had extensively listened to and lived with, eventually became what I would consider my own "reference". Those goalposts are forever moving however.

[MusicOne]

One would need to consider the style of music you mostly listen to. Is it jazz, classical, vocals, or some variation of rock?

 

In my experience, there is no single speaker that does every genre equally well. And what is a 'normal speaker' as opposed to a 'reference speaker'? It is probably in the ear of the listener. 

 

I think you may have opened a hornet's nest, but I'm sure you'll get some good advice, too.

 

Edited October 1, 2024 by MusicOne

[Bronal]

Add 'monitor' to this list.

[padde23]

By reference they just mean the speaker they keep long(er) term to compare others to. 

[David A]

I do agree with Marc that the term "Reference" speaker is over-used by marketing departments. That said, to me reference level speakers must be full range, highly resolving and capable of accurately reproducting the dynamics, bass, sound stage, imaging and tone/timbre of the live event or recording studio. I'd rate the Infinity IRS-V's I heard in 1992 as reference speakers. But reference speakers need not be behomeths. I'd rate my Magico S5 Mk2's as reference level speakers.

[StereoNET]

6 hours ago, David A said:

speakers must be full range, highly resolving and capable of accurately reproducting the dynamics, bass, sound stage, imaging and tone/timbre of the live event or recording studio.

 

Not at all trying to be argumentative, but what you have described above should simply be the description of any product claiming to be a loudspeaker, shouldn't it? (excluding, smart, portable, bluetooth etc).

 

I don't think any manufacturer can call their product a "reference" when there is no "Standard" that has been developed, agreed upon by an alliance or industry association, and published. There likely never will be either, IMO.

 

It's purely a marketing term, nothing else.

 

In my situation, the JBL K2 was my "reference". It was good enough for me to use it as a reference against other loudspeakers. But one needs many references. For example, I would take a Lenehan Audio (maybe ML1) as a standmount reference, something in between for a small floorstander (likely something from the Audiovector or Hulgich Audio ranges), and then the K2 as a "large" reference. But, again, with no standard, no measurements, and it all being purely subjective, I maintain there's no such thing as an actual reference in loudspeakers.

 

We all have our own reference, and it's fluid and constantly changing as is typical in the audiophile journey.

[Cloth Ears]

Ideally, the speakers used to engineer and produce a piece of music should be the 'reference'. Unlikely that anyone that any studio monitors are actually labelled with the ubiquitous 'reference' moniker...and most people find those sort of driver fairly fatiguing anyway.

[crisis]

Reference - adjective: used or usable for reference

especially: constituting a standard for measuring or constructing

 

In the case of an audio component it is a bit cavalier to describe a component as such unless one is determining actual identified characteristics. EG We reference the bass response against this particular component for all others we test. One could then come up with a comparison against the “reference”. It won’t mean the reference is ultimate as some of the components tested against it may indeed surpass the performance.

I, and I imagine many of us, have reference cds or albums. We know very well what they sound like on different systems or components and we can therefore judge if a change to our system has improved or otherwise by comparing, subjectively, what we experience.

[David A]

9 hours ago, StereoNET said:

 

Not at all trying to be argumentative, but what you have described above should simply be the description of any product claiming to be a loudspeaker, shouldn't it? (excluding, smart, portable, bluetooth etc).

 

I don't think any manufacturer can call their product a "reference" when there is no "Standard" that has been developed, agreed upon by an alliance or industry association, and published. There likely never will be either, IMO.

 

It's purely a marketing term, nothing else.

 

In my situation, the JBL K2 was my "reference". It was good enough for me to use it as a reference against other loudspeakers. But one needs many references. For example, I would take a Lenehan Audio (maybe ML1) as a standmount reference, something in between for a small floorstander (likely something from the Audiovector or Hulgich Audio ranges), and then the K2 as a "large" reference. But, again, with no standard, no measurements, and it all being purely subjective, I maintain there's no such thing as an actual reference in loudspeakers.

 

We all have our own reference, and it's fluid and constantly changing as is typical in the audiophile journey.

It would be nice if every loudspeaker manufactured, including portable bluetooth speakers could be described as "reference" speakers. But I don't think that is the case. Though you are right that there is no established "reference" standard as such. The term is therefore subjective when applied to loudspeakers. And yes, loudspeaker technology is constantly evolving and generally improving as you noted.

However I don't think that should be dismissed as merely a marketing term. Infinity Systems created the massive 7 foot tall Infinity Reference Standard (IRS) speakers in 1980, which were originally designed as their internal reference from which all their other speakers would be referenced against. It was only after word got out in the audio community that Infinity decided to commercially produce the IRS-I speaker system in 1982.

 

Edited October 2, 2024 by David A

[Batty]

I have a pair of KEF reference series Model 104aB, as far as I can see the reference is just a range of speakers made by KEF. Just a name.

[David A]

2 minutes ago, Batty said:

I have a pair of KEF reference series Model 104aB, as far as I can see the reference is just a range of speakers made by KEF. Just a name.

Yup that is a good example of the use of "reference" as a marketing term. I used to own Infinity Reference 60 speakers which were part of the "Reference" series (see attached PDF). But they were not what i'd call reference level speakers. That's why the IRS speakers were created as I mentioned.

hfe_infinity_reference_series_1992_en.pdf

[POV]

I agree with the comments regarding the term 'reference' being fundamentally high-jinxed by marketing departments these days.

 

Personally, I deeply believe in the critical nature of the speaker room interface in what we hear and the way we perceive music so to my mind there cannot be a 'reference' speaker and rather it would need to be a 'reference speaker and room'.    To this end my own personal 'reference' is a system that I was lucky enough to hear a few times in the UK running JBL K2 Everest with a Pass Labs front end in custom designed and treated room.  This system had a holographic, 3 dimensional soundstage like nothing I have personally heard anywhere else (including some much higher price systems I have heard in lesser rooms) that gave me a connection to the music that I've not experienced anywhere else.  This is my point of reference  for what an incredible, mind melting experience listening to music can be and it's this that I have tried to chase down ever since!  That's a reference  

Edited October 2, 2024 by POV

[muon*]

A reference speaker is the one an individual thinks is the best, so it is based on what they have heard, and they may not have heard all speakers performing at their best due to associate equipment.

 

SO It's a moving target at best and often of little meaning to another individual..

 

Edit: another variable is that you may have a different preference than the person you are reading about or listening to.

In Marketing it is used to refer to the best offering/s a manufacturer has to offer.

Edited October 2, 2024 by muon*

[David A]

49 minutes ago, muon* said:

A reference speaker is the one an individual thinks is the best

 

By that logic, someone who thinks McDonalds Greensborough is the best restaurant in Australia...and far better than 3-hatted Brae or Amaru must be right.

[Eggmeister]

Greensborough Macca's ??

 

That's close by, I'm on my way

[muon*]

6 minutes ago, David A said:

 

By that logic, someone who thinks McDonalds Greensborough is the best restaurant in Australia...and far better than 3-hatted Brae or Amaru must be right.

False equivalency.

[POV]

7 minutes ago, David A said:

 

By that logic, someone who thinks McDonalds Greensborough is the best restaurant in Australia...and far better than 3-hatted Brae or Amaru must be right.

If the best food someone has ever tried is from McDonalds, then wouldn’t that logically be a point of reference for them until they experience something better?

[StereoNET]

1 minute ago, POV said:

If the best food someone has ever tried is from McDonalds, then wouldn’t that logically be a point of reference for them until they experience something better?

 

That's my take. And I think that is the point I was trying to get across at the start of this thread.

 

Everyone's reference is different, and forever changing/improving. We're in danger of going around in circles a little bit on this one perhaps.

[David A]

1 hour ago, StereoNET said:

 

That's my take. And I think that is the point I was trying to get across at the start of this thread.

 

Everyone's reference is different, and forever changing/improving. We're in danger of going around in circles a little bit on this one perhaps.

Arnie Nudell and Cary Christie built the IRS speakers to use as a tool to inform and evaluate their later designs. In that respect they served their purpose. But your idea or my idea of a reference speaker may be completely different, depending on the variables you mentioned earlier. So on that point, I agree with you.

 

Edited October 2, 2024 by David A

[David A]

19 minutes ago, Eggmeister said:

Greensborough Macca's ??

 

That's close by, I'm on my way

 

Enjoy