When does a cable fall into the realm of just expensive with no real noticeable benefit?

[Camac]

Hello folks

I have just dipped my toe into the world of HiFi equipment, albeit at the entry level, after many years of not being able to financially do so. I have just purchased PS audio Air Lens, Gold DAC, Gold Preamp & M1200 monoblock amps and Def tech 9080X speakers. Now comes the part where I need to connect it all together and already am totally blown away with the variety and price range of cables. I have no idea of what type of power, XLR & I2S cables I need that would be suited to my gear. I have been to all the hifi shops and of course they all recommend cables that are worth more that the cost of my equipment. OMG! I have even been given trial handmade power cables that are supposed to be good but expensive however when I price each component referring to part no's, each cable cost about $37 in parts. So I am now very suspicious of the price and benefit of what is being recommended. So the million dollar question is - do cables really make that much of a difference or is it mostly snake oil? Any advice would be much appreciated, I'm all ears! One last thing, if cables really do make a difference, I would rather just start at the biggest bang for buck and slowly acquire  them all bit at a time rather than buying cheap ones that I will eventually have to try to offload as they are replaced. Which cables to start with and how much to spend given the level of my equipment. Thanks in advance.

[MattyW]

Honestly it comes down to the overall level of transparency of your equipment, and your ability to hear the difference. If you can't hear it then there's no point. I find analog cables make the biggest difference, with power and digital cables each making a similar though lesser difference than the analog cables..... Power cables don't make a difference in every piece of equipment though for me.

 

I've found I prefer Foilflex for all my analog cables, Tubulus Concentus (silver) for all my digital cables and Duelund copper for power cables.

 

Really though test the waters with some less expensive cables and see if you can hear a difference. If you can't then why bother?

Edited September 25 by MattyW

[Grimmie]

Wowie Cam, this is a Pandora's box you are opening here. The differing opinions, arguments, fights and insults this topic has attracted over the years on this forum and many others is stuff of nightmare. Let's hope that responders can keep the reply's simple and practical without theoretical hyperbole so that you get a good idea of how to procede.

 

That said I have heard the differences in sound that interconnects can bring. years ago being very upset to hear how the Audioquest Jade I.C.'s I'd been using for years were seriously degrading the output of my modest system of the time Ariston Q-Deck, Marantz PM17 integrated amp and Dynaudio Audience 72's. Can't remember what I replaced them with at the time but now use 'Oyaide Tunami Terzo RR' RCA interconnects for linking Hyperspace deck / Vincent 701 to AMR DP777 Pre/DAC, Oyaide DB-510 Silver core digital SPDIF between Bel Canto CD and AMR and have always loved the Oyaide cables. To my SGR MT 3.2 active speakers I use Aurialis R1 XLR and Sonic Art Silver Line Mk2 RCA.

 

I guess the point here is that these are not masively expensive cables (I've seen used cales costing  tens of thousands) but you need to find the best cables to suit the expense of your system. Spending as much on cables as your amp or speakers is nuts surely not wise.

Edited September 25 by Grimmie

[Camac]

So what I need to do is have a handful of different level cables, starting at the streamer and work my way down through the chain of components. How can anyone accomplish this when you would need tens of thousands of dollars worth of cables to trail. Is there a hifi shop that would be able to lend a variety of type and price cables to enable a suitable selection to match the gear you have? To me, that is really the quickest and cheapest way to make the right choices. 

[muon*]

Doesn't PS Audio have an i2s cable.

[Andythiing]

Just purchase some reasonably priced cables (differs on each persons definition of reasonable) - plug them in and enjoy your system and music - then in a while (I’d suggest 12 months) consider upgrading if you really feel the need to tinker 

[Grimmie]

What suburb are you in Cam? Though I don't have I2s I can bring a selection of XLR and RCA  SPDIF and AES cables. Several speaker types too Are you still in work (the curse of the audiophile class) or retired? if the latter during the week-day or the unfortunate former, one evening.

Might give you some insight and idea of outlay required. Let me know.

[ray4410]

1 minute ago, Grimmie said:

What suburb are you in Cam? Though I don't have I2s I can bring a selection of XLR and RCA  SPDIF and AES cables. Several speaker types too Are you still in work (the curse of the audiophile class) or retired? if the latter during the week-day or the unfortunate former, one evening.

Might give you some insight and idea of outlay required. Let me know.

 a very generous gesture  

[Assisi]

1 hour ago, Andythiing said:

Just purchase some reasonably priced cables (differs on each persons definition of reasonable) - plug them in and enjoy your system and music - then in a while (I’d suggest 12 months) consider upgrading if you really feel the need to tinker 

There is no definitive answer to your query.  There are a myriad of perspectives and opinions on the topic.  It comes down to trying various options over time and your own experience.  The post I have quoted above is a good advice.

 

My perspective based on my experience, is that all things need to settle in over time. The time can be significant.  It would be better to allow time for your components to settle before you make any changes cable wise. Otherwise you will just become confused as to what is doing what in the context of any differences or beneficial outcomes.

 

John

[Ittaku]

100% opinion here: The difference between analogue cables make a subtle difference. Digital cables make no difference unless they don't meet specification and can only make things worse (hint: most audiophile brands don't meet specifications). Power cables make no difference.

 

 

Spend money on electronics, not insane markup wire that serves no benefit.

 

Yes it's pure opinion (I already put that disclaimer there), but there is science to support my claims, and no I don't care what anyone else says. Go nuts but it won't alter my view.

 

[grammefriday]

You could start by looking at some reasonably priced and reputable cables by Australian makers such as Audio Principe, Robertson Audio, March Audio and NB Audio. I have used combinations of these over the years and have been very pleased with the results. In all cases they can tailor the length of their cables to what you need

[Snoopy8]

Cables do make a difference and suggest starting with analogue cables first, speakers and interconnects.  This is the least contentious and buy what you think are "reasonable" (& everyone is different!).  The classifieds are often better value and you can experiment.

 

Then the minefields of power cables and digital cables, with very opinionated nay sayers often blowing up threads.  Even my saying "good power cables have more influence than digital cables" can set things off!  

 

Best if you experiment for yourself and decide....

[MrBurns84]

28 minutes ago, grammefriday said:

You could start by looking at some reasonably priced and reputable cables by Australian makers such as Audio Principe, Robertson Audio, March Audio and NB Audio. I have used combinations of these over the years and have been very pleased with the results. In all cases they can tailor the length of their cables to what you need

Same here.  Robertson Audio cables gets the tick from me being reasonably priced pure silver cables, made locally, with excellent support from Warrick.

 

[Dystoria]

51 minutes ago, Snoopy8 said:

Then the minefields of power cables and digital cables, with very opinionated nay sayers often blowing up threads. 

 

Happy to send any naysayer my old canon printer USB which was replaced with a Tellurium Q Silver. Not happy to send the silver.  

 

Totally agree with @Snoopy8, best experiment for yourself and let your ears decide. This takes time and patience.

[MattyW]

1 hour ago, MrBurns84 said:

Same here.  Robertson Audio cables gets the tick from me being reasonably priced pure silver cables, made locally, with excellent support from Warrick.

 

 

Might try the Robertson power cables in my office system at some point. Might prove interesting. Not too exy.

[rantan]

Best to start ( and finish ) with speaker and IC cables, up to approx $1K and then keep them............forever. At that price level you will get a nicely made, great sounding cable which will last you a lifetime. Also please do not waste your hard earned money  on any sort of overhyped power cable marketed by pseudo scientists.

Then you can spend your money on far more important things like speaker, amplifier and source upgrades

[grammefriday]

7 hours ago, Camac said:

Is there a hifi shop that would be able to lend a variety of type and price cables to enable a suitable selection to match the gear you have? To me, that is really the quickest and cheapest way to make the right choices. 

From memory, the cable makers I listed in my earlier post all have 14 day try and return if not happy arrangements. They know that not every cable suits every system or ear and are therefore happy to stand by their products with their return policy (assuming the cables are in original condition and not damaged obviously)

[rockeater]

12 hours ago, Grimmie said:

What suburb are you in Cam? Though I don't have I2s I can bring a selection of XLR and RCA  SPDIF and AES cables. Several speaker types too Are you still in work (the curse of the audiophile class) or retired? if the latter during the week-day or the unfortunate former, one evening.

Might give you some insight and idea of outlay required. Let me know.

This is the your solution to the problem.

Buy a bottle of cognac, invite @Grimmie for a session.

Sit in your listening position, put on your favorite track and ask him to replace cables one after another as he sees fit.

Don't discuss anything and just let him do it and you make notes.

For best results, put a chair of something obstructing your view, so that you are not swayed by how thick, what color or how well made they are.

After 15 - 20 minutes you will know if it is worth spending money on cables and how much (once he will tell you what order cables were plugged in and how much he paid for them).

Then, he can sell you the ones you like, for he will have a number he no longer uses.

Everyone will be a winner.

[Grimmie]

Summed it up Roman except no, I 'm not selling anything. Most of the wires will come from my systems and go back after. Yes I've got stuff in boxes and cupboards but won't want to part with it.

 

Hopefully the excerise would help Cam to determine if different cables do indeed have a different sound or flavour but won't give him a taste of hi-end 'cos I don't own any.

[David A]

Cables matter, and yes they do make a difference. But the degree of benefit you'll get from more expensive cables depends on the level of your system. I've gone down the rabbit hole of buying expensive high end cables. But i've now found a cable manufacturer which offers sensational value & all the performance I need based on my current system plans. And that's the key point, you only need cables good enough to bring out the best in your system, and no better.
 

Edited September 25 by David A

[Kirby66]

19 hours ago, Grimmie said:

I can bring a selection of XLR and RCA  SPDIF and AES cables

And this is one of the BEST things about SNA ... Kudos to you @Grimmie

 

Someone once told me when I was discussing the cost / benefit of cable upgrades that 10% of the value of components was a reasonable guide ... I did the maths (as I'm STUPID enough to keep a spreadsheet of my gear with $$ values) and it was about 10%.

 

Cables CAN make a difference but as with most other changes it's all about synergy in your system and room. The first step up from OEM supplied generic cables is probably the biggest step up with a reducing ROI as you climb further.

 

Enjoy the exercise and make it a good bottle of Cognac - it's a very generous offer 

[anth0110]

4 hours ago, David A said:

Cables matter, and yes they do make a difference. But the degree of benefit you'll get from more expensive cables depends on the level of your system. I've gone down the rabbit hole of buying expensive high end cables. But i've now found a cable manufacturer which offers sensational value & all the performance I need based on my current system plans. And that's the key point, you only need cables good enough to bring out the best in your system, and no better.
 

Would like to know the name of this manufacturer 

[SonicArt]

Cables are important,  should you spend thousands on them? not in my opinion, I started designing cable back in 1994, I was at the time manufacturing speakers and wanted to compliment them with a cable that was very high tech in the materials and production but at very sane pricing. 

There is a huge amount of snake oil in the cable market,  everyone and his dog sticking bits of wire in fancy jackets and asking $$$ for the privilege of owning them.

I have found it often difficult over the years to convince ppl that my cables perform well above any perceived price point...

 

I am at the stage now where I am going to put together a demo set of current popular cables that can be sent out for a 7 day evaluation,  all it will cost you is the shipping both ways.  these will be burnt in ready to go,  I will start a new thread about this soon as I have the details nutted out.

[MrBurns84]

20 minutes ago, SonicArt said:

I am at the stage now where I am going to put together a demo set of current popular cables that can be sent out for a 7 day evaluation,  all it will cost you is the shipping both ways.  these will be burnt in ready to go,  I will start a new thread about this soon as I have the details nutted out.

Sounds like a good plan   I'm keen when the time comes @SonicArt

 

21 minutes ago, SonicArt said:

There is a huge amount of snake oil in the cable market,  everyone and his dog sticking bits of wire in fancy jackets and asking $$$ for the privilege of owning them.

So true.  I was burnt and learnt a good lesson on this during the Monster Cable days as a teenager back in the early 90s.  Got swayed by the sweet talk from the HN sales guy.. sigh.  I still have that cable to this day as a reminder..lol.

 

These days we're spoilt for choice in this very competitive segment of the cable market.  Truth be told, i was in a blind test at a hifi store 15 years ago (wont say which one) where the sales guy swapped in/out an Odin Power cable vs a stock kettle lead on a Krell power amp..  i did pick the Odin as my preferred off the two, but the difference was so subtle that i would say i got lucky and it was probably a placebo effect.  I think it was priced at $15k back then? I could be wrong.

[ganache]

I have found that cables do make a difference in my system.  I would try to listen to a variety of cables to see if they make a difference to you in your system.  The forum members who suggested allowing you to listen to some of their cables or sellers that have trial periods are the best paths in my opinion.  I have found good used cables at reasonable prices.  First see if cables make a difference for you.  Don't spend good money on something that may not matter to you.  Good luck on your hunt!