Looking to develop a reasonably good system but overwhelmed by options

[khodd]

So a little while back my partner said she'd like to play vinyl again. Easy I thought, but the last time I was seriously looking at hi fi was the nineties and a lot seems to have changed. Originally I was looking at amps and turntables, then saw the desirability of adding streaming capability. Then suddenly I'm having to get my head around streaming platforms, DACs and connectivity. Briefly I think I am on top of it and then read that I need an HDMI input or Roon capability. Or Dirac. Separate streamer or integrated? Which should have the DAC? Every option seems to have it's pros and cons. I'd welcome suggestions for specific kit or simply how to figure out what kind of setup would suit my needs. 

 

I'm looking for something where vocals and instruments are clearly defined and can be located in the soundstage but that is enjoyable and relaxing to listen to. I want to listen to TV, streaming (tidal?) and vinyl. The only thing I currently have is a pair of Richter Harlequins circa 1990 and I suspect I'll upgrade those at some time. Floorstanders in the $2500 to 4000 range? My final budget is maybe 5 to 8K (AUD). My listening space is about 5m x 5m enclosed on 3 sides, with open plan to the right, rug over tiles and full-length curtains, but we'll probably be moving to suburbia in a year or two and then who knows. Turntable will probably be a Rega P2 or Project evo carbon.

 

When I started checking out shops in Brisbane I thought a streaming amp in the $1500-2000 range would be what I was after, probably from Denon, Marantz or Yamaha. This would have the benefits of being driven by a single remote or app, and having fewer cables. Then we were encouraged to look at seperate streamer (eg. blusound node nano or Wiim Pro Plus) and amp (eg. Audiolab 7000a or Rega Brio/Elex). This way the streamer could change with technology but we'd have a solid amp at the heart of things that would be less likely to become obsolete. This latter option has a lot of appeal but it seems hard to get anything with HDMI in and so it seems some movie codecs wouldn't work. Also with the Rega elex and a streamer we'd end up with 2 DACs which seems a bit crazy. 

 

A few other things, aethetics and ease of use are important (not keen on the look of the Brio). Reliability is also important although I don't know how to determine this beyond a few dark mutterings about rival's products. Also a bit prejudiced against China for political reasons though that's where 90% of stuff seems to come from, in this price bracket at least. Also we have speaker on the deck and a "speaker B" option might be useful. I'm told there are better multi-room options available these days though I don't know what that would involve or cost. 

 

Cheers,

Murray Khodd

 

  

[Neo]

Why not engage one or few retailers in Brisbane and actually get them to show you few options so you can have a listen for yourself. Nothing beats an audition and have a personal interaction with the equipment and its use. 
Describe what you after to the retailers do not be shy and come back few times. 
Neo

[sir sanders zingmore]

It strikes me that you need to first work out your own requirements - not what people tell you you’ll need. 
 

For example: 

10 hours ago, khodd said:

Briefly I think I am on top of it and then read that I need an HDMI input or Roon capability

Why do you need HDMI? I mean you might, but the way you phrase it sounds like someone else is telling you this. 
 

 

[khodd]

1 hour ago, Neo said:

Why not engage one or few retailers in Brisbane 

Yes, been to a few. And will definitely be buying from a local bricks and mortar shop. (After sales backup + unethical to get advice then shop on web.) The problem is that after visiting 3 shops we were looking at 3 different configurations and really struggled to weigh up the pros and cons. 

[khodd]

1 hour ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

Why do you need HDMI?

I think it would be desirable for easier or more robust one-remote operation, though not certain about this. Also less likely to experience synchronisation problems if the TV connects directly to the amp? And possibly some of the newer movie audio codecs need hdmi rather than optical, though I'm not sure if that matters with a stereo system. 

 

The thing that worries me a little is that I don't know what I don't know and I fear finding out later that I'm lacking some critical functionality. 

I'd just like to add that i am taking into account advice from retailers but want to check that against other opinions, maybe see if there are any other options i should consider, other criteria i should be looking at, questions i should be asking. It really does seem so much more complicated than it used to be. 

[Neo]

26 minutes ago, khodd said:

Yes, been to a few. And will definitely be buying from a local bricks and mortar shop. (After sales backup + unethical to get advice then shop on web.) The problem is that after visiting 3 shops we were looking at 3 different configurations and really struggled to weigh up the pros and cons. 

So you actually narrowed down to three configurations so perhaps list them and then list your requirements and see what fits best. Then after coming to conclusion go and extensively listen to that setup. Put a deposit and get it setup in your place hear how it would interact in your environment. Nothing worse than paying top dollar then in house it sounds average. 
It may involve extra coin but risk of disappointment will be oh so much less. 
Neo

Edited September 16, 2024 by Neo

[cafe67]

Why not start off Simple then add , you stated you wanted a record player - so consider a decent record and a good integrated amp with inbuilt phono stage and perhaps in build dac for future expansion. 
 

you have some speakers so let them tie you over until you’ve had a good listen then work out where you want to go from there 

Edited September 16, 2024 by cafe67

[adam0bmx0]

If the space is for 2-channel and TV listening (using whatever floorstanding/bookshelves you buy to do both), i'd add to the configuration list an AVR that has at a minimum 7 powered channels (can always add a preferred DAC).

Reason being, I started with a 2-channel tv/hifi set-up, and quickly realised with a lot of content we watch (Netflix, Amazon Prime, 4k Blu ray) we wanted a more immersive experience to take advantage of Dolby Atmos content.

That room now doubles as my hifi room (Focal Sopra 2), family TV duties and sometimes movies, in a 5.1.4 configuration, via an Integra 8.4 AVR and Tonewinner 7300ADP 7-channel power amp. I do also have a separate home theatre room using JVC/Anthem/Krix/SVS.

 

My wife was originally against more speakers going in that louge/TV room, but soon came around... well I would add the surrounds and height speakers and then she would notice afterwards.  

So yea, just another option, Im in Brisbane too so if you want to check out two different rooms more than welcome to pop over.

[Snoopy8]

 to the forum. 

 

Not at all surprised that you are confused, with a myriad of options and even more opinions to choose from.

 

I have been an advocate for simple setups since my adventures 6 years ago.  Suggest starting with simple like this: 

https://www.videopro.com.au/product/nad-m10-v2-integrated-amplifier-streaming-airplay-2-bluetooth-aptx-hd-earc-alexa-open-box-special/

On sale, open box with warranty. 

 

It fits the requirements for aesthetics and ease of use and will allow you to connect to TV via HDMI.  It has Dirac room correction, which allows you to compensate for the room.  The room has the most influence on the sound, something many people forget.

 

While it may be a minor requirement, you can also do multi room.

 

Very long video but worth the effort to watch all of it.

 

 

And if you want more ideas for "simple", please let me know....

Edited September 16, 2024 by Snoopy8
Typo

[cafe67]

Another option similar to @Snoopy8 suggestion is https://www.cambridgeaudio.com/row/en/products/evo/evo-150

 

which does have an built MM phono stage , I’ve no experience of the product or what the streaming software is like.

Edited September 16, 2024 by cafe67

[sir sanders zingmore]

2 hours ago, khodd said:

some critical functionality. 

You started off wanting to play some records, how did you get to the point where decoding the latest movie codecs was “critical”?

Again it seems to me that you and your partner need to clarify for yourselves exactly what you are looking for. Otherwise you risk ending up with a system that doesn’t actually achieve your objectives. 

 

[Batty]

Start simple and add other sources later

 

[sir sanders zingmore]

This ^^

[Snoopy8]

52 minutes ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

You started off wanting to play some records, how did you get to the point where decoding the latest movie codecs was “critical”?

Again it seems to me that you and your partner need to clarify for yourselves exactly what you are looking for. Otherwise you risk ending up with a system that doesn’t actually achieve your objectives. 

I think this is rather harsh.  OP is new and and rightly, is confused with changing requirements.

[sir sanders zingmore]

10 minutes ago, Snoopy8 said:

I think this is rather harsh.  OP is new and and rightly, is confused with changing requirements.

I’m not meaning to criticise, apologies if it came across that way. 

I’m genuinely trying to help the OP to stop and think about what they want first and foremost. There’s lots of knowledgeable and helpful people here but I’d hate to see someone get well meaning advice for a product that they didn’t really want.

 

Again, apologies if my tone seemed harsh. 

[wasabijim]

I have a similar set of functional needs - analogue/digital stereo that can scale to handle A/V, rather than an A/V system that does stereo playback as a side hassle. I'm happy to live 100% stereo (with subs). My integrated can take (and pass to the TV) HDMI and I've done OK with more an A/V (vs audio only) streaming solution via that - I get youtube, Prime, etc. etc. and i can stream stereo content to this - Spotify, digital radio, there's simple solutions to stream higher res material from a local collection or Tidal. etc. I was using Chromecasts for a while, now have a NVidia solution - these are Android based, I'm not across Apple equiv. You can do a similar thing with a Smart TV being the streamer with the source provider apps set-up, plus you may have the option of optical or HDMI from the TV into your amp. I know this might not cut the mustard with the SQ police but it get's you in the game. on the audio streaming side there's way more options and price ranges vs A/V streaming. 

in summary

I recommend base the solution around a nice integrated amp that is HDMI and digital friendly. There are some around from similar brands you mentioned. some have network connectivity for streaming local files or may have audio streaming capabilities baked in (Spotify, Tidal, etc.)
Get this going and add your vinyl chain to it either with it's own phone stage or using the integrated if it's got one. 

Yes, it's a real possibility you end up with multiple DAC when you go multiple boxes. If you have a DVD/BR player - there's another one. There's some disk spinners with  (basic) streaming and multiple digital (maybe HDMI)  inputs purely for DAC duties - so that's another option. (I'm not 100% sold on the idea of streaming via separates for future proofing unless you are deep into digital)  
 

 

 

[khodd]

Wasabijim - I didn't understand much of that but . . your TV can be the streamer? Hmmm. SQ police - sound quality? Ah,  a quick google suggests a smart tv will probably be too noisy. Though I don't get how a digital signal sent to a digital input on an amp can be noisy. I mean, it's digital! I have an LG G2 which was about the best you could buy a few years ago, don't know if that makes a difference.  

 

Phones are android. 

 

Cheers

[Grimmie]

I often send Spotify through the TV from my phone to my AMR DAC via optical and no, not perfect but more than adequate to enjoy and more importantly review new music to see if worth purchasing the album on vinyl or CD. A digital signal is a digital signal, if your DAC's a good one you'll get good sound like I do.

[wasabijim]

On 16/09/2024 at 7:05 PM, khodd said:

Wasabijim - I didn't understand much of that but . . your TV can be the streamer? Hmmm. SQ police - sound quality? Ah,  a quick google suggests a smart tv will probably be too noisy. Though I don't get how a digital signal sent to a digital input on an amp can be noisy. I mean, it's digital! I have an LG G2 which was about the best you could buy a few years ago, don't know if that makes a difference.  

 

Phones are android. 

 

Cheers

Does the tv have the 'non-tv' menu for Netflix, Amazon Prime, YouTube, etc? Typically, it's via this space you can manage and add apps like abc iView,   sbs on-demand, but also audio-only apps. Additionally, many smart TVs allow u to chromecast directly off your Android phone to the tv, eg YouTube. The tv should have optical out (at least), use that to feed the amp. 

 

You can plug a Goggle Chromecast or similar device into the TVs hdhi to make it smart. OR  make an amp that  accepts/passes hdhi smart

[khodd]

2 hours ago, wasabijim said:

Does the tv have the 'non-tv' menu for Netflix, Amazon Prime, YouTube, etc? Typically, it's via this space you can manage and add apps like abc iView,   sbs on-demand, but also audio-only apps. Additionally, many smart TVs allow u to chromecast directly off your Android phone to the tv, eg YouTube. The tv should have optical out (at least), use that to feed the amp. 

 

You can plug a Goggle Chromecast or similar device into the TVs hdhi to make it smart. OR  make an amp that  accepts/passes hdhi smart

 

It's an LG TV with WebOS. This has Apps for spotify, Tidal etc. I was thinking of just using the Tidal app for now, though that depends on whether the amp I end up getting has in-built streaming I guess. 

 

There don't seem to be many integrated amps I can find that have HDMI other than those that include streaming.  This seems odd, but as you say I can just use optical.

 

I've been doing lots of research based on responses and am feeling a bit less confused.  (Also that the old Luxman amp that I gave to a friend years ago now seems to be selling for $5,000 - $8,000.) 

 

 A non-streaming amp on my shortlist that does have HDMI is the Audiolabs 7000A. Amps I'm considering without HDMI include the Rega Brio and Elex MK4. Not sure I'm ready to forgo tone controls, though if I had them I can see the benefit in being able to bypass them.

 

The NAD M10 V2 is intriguing but probably just beyond my price range and the lack of phono input is diappointing. Other NAD amps and Blusound streamers are interesting but I'm still getting my head around which has what functionality and at what price given that bluos is generally an optional module. Would be interested in Dirac but there don't seem to be any simple and cheap ways to get this.

 

If I went for a streaming amp the main contenders seem to be the Yamaha RN1000A or maybe the Marantz 60N (still made in Japan?). 

 

Hopefully in a few days we'll try and audition a few of these components. (Sort of another topic, but in the interests of making meaningful comparisons and not wasting everone's time I wonder if there are any tips for auditioning equipment out there? If anyone has a link that would be great. For example I'm thinking that taking my own music and speakers should be useful, but how best to look for specific weaknesses? 

[wasabijim]

Yeah it does seem at the moment you get amps either purely analogue, or a mixed bag of approaches to digital and streaming. Bummer that you gave away such a sweet amp. I would definitely consider the M10. There's pros and cons to rolling features into single box. I'd throw into the mix - less cables including power and btn components. Partners can get a bit overwhelmed, both seeing all this gear when not in use and then they need to understand how it all works together. My wife knows she just needs to turn the main amp and TV on then use her phone to bring up music or A/V content. No complications with separate streamer or DAC components.  

 

also, are you going to get everything in a single go? I like the idea of a staged approach - get the simple streaming going, even if via your TV if the amp doesn't support it. You've got the tunes flowing while you see if you like it and consider your vinyl or other options like speakers and subs. 

 

I wouldn't loose sleep over an integrated that doesn't include a phono. More so if you haven't yet settled on a TT yet or haven't got records to play. Many feel a separate/stand-alone phono stage is better. It's also something your shop should allow you to trial at home when you are ready. 

 

yep, take your own music, maybe confirm the best format with them prior. They may have a stereo set-up combined with a TV & DVD/BR, so that might be an option to  also explore particularly how a 2.1 or 2.2 set-up compares to surround for A/V.  they're not overly accurate but consider a dB sound meter app you can run on your phone in the interest of keeping listening volumes consistent or comparable to home levels. you can be unjustly drawn to an option because a small volume increase can be initially perceived as superior. 

 

good luck and welcome back to the fold !! 

[Snoopy8]

12 hours ago, khodd said:

There don't seem to be many integrated amps I can find that have HDMI other than those that include streaming.  This seems odd, but as you say I can just use optical.

Suggest getting HDMI, please read this

https://www.orei.com/blogs/news/which-is-better-hdmi-arc-or-optical-audio?

 

12 hours ago, khodd said:

The NAD M10 V2 is intriguing but probably just beyond my price range and the lack of phono input is diappointing. 

As Darko pointed out, it has incredible value and functionality. You can always add an external phono stage.

 

Are these closer to your budget? No Dirac, no phono stage

https://www.sightandsoundgalleria.com.au/product/nad-c700-bluos-streaming-amplifier/

 

https://www.digitalcinema.com.au/bluesound-powernode-n330-wireless-multi-room-amplifier-music-streaming-powernode-3.html

 

If budget is really tight, then this

https://www.customht.com.au/products/wiim-amp-pro-streaming-amplifier

 

12 hours ago, khodd said:

I wonder if there are any tips for auditioning equipment out there? If anyone has a link that would be great. For example I'm thinking that taking my own music and speakers should be useful, but how best to look for specific weaknesses? 

Trust your ears; your opinion far outweighs everyone else.  And try to compare at the same volume.  It is human nature to prefer a louder sound.  A phone app to measure loudness can help here.

 

And if you can, take your own music, and if possible your speakers.

 

Happy hunting...

[khodd]

Totally agree about the benefits of one box, even better if turning tv on turns the amp on. Also read good things about dirac. Am trying to sway partner into at least considering this. And yes, just the amp for now, borrow a tt from a friend (inbuilt preamp) and use the old speakers for now. Next purchase probably a Bluray (I think a Panasonic DP-UB820GNK). 

 

I think the rega amps are out of the equation as I've read a few times that they run hot and cut out on 4 ohm loads, which is what I think my Richter Harlequins are. So the Rgas would probably be class A amps yes?

 

If I want to leave the possibility of surround open then I need to buy an amp now with pre in, is that it? What specifically would rule out that option? 

 

I had surround sound but wasn't much overwhelmed, unlike the cat who freaked out at sounds coming from the rear ceiling speakers. Then again it was a sub $1K  Yamaha home theater-in-a-box. Have a $500 Denon soundbar now which is heaps better.  

 

As an aside, the Luxman had these tricky split bass and tone controls to adjust left and right channels separately, and a selector next to each that changed the frequency at which those controls kicked in. Quite logical and desirable I'd think but I've never seen it on any other amp which seems very odd.  

 

[wasabijim]

2 hours ago, khodd said:

 Next purchase probably a Bluray (I think a Panasonic DP-UB820GNK). 

 

 

If you do get a Yamaha amp,  maybe consider a disk spinner from the same brand - they generally all play nicely together in an ecosystem than can be expanded to multi-room set-ups

 

2 hours ago, khodd said:

If I want to leave the possibility of surround open then I need to buy an amp now with pre in, is that it? What specifically would rule out that option? 

 

  I think you are referring to home theatre bypass. it means your A/V receiver takes over the volume control so your mains are in sync with other speakers but still driven by the amp

 

3 hours ago, khodd said:

Also read good things about dirac. Am trying to sway partner into at least considering this.

 

it's pretty nifty stuff but also remember that we was able to live without it for decades. 

 

3 hours ago, khodd said:

I think the rega amps are out of the equation as I've read a few times that they run hot and cut out on 4 ohm loads, which is what I think my Richter Harlequins are. So the Rgas would probably be class A amps yes?

 

maybe back in the day but now they're class AB. On this point - trust your ears, I wouldn't discount testing them based on that reading. as mentioned if you're able to bring your own speakers or have them hook-up something similar load wise. see if you get 'hands-on' ref the heat problems. 

[Snoopy8]

3 hours ago, khodd said:

If I want to leave the possibility of surround open then I need to buy an amp now with pre in, is that it? What specifically would rule out that option? 

How important are movies and surround sound?  If movies are the priority, then better to get an AVR. 

 

However, if the priority is music, but with the ability to play movies, then an integrated or all in one, with HDMI input is the way to go.

 

The M10 V2 (not V1) is one of the few boxes that allows you to add surround to a stereo setup.