Small square room, large sliding door. Options?

[jazz1234]

We’re building a new home and I’ll be using one of the living rooms as a listening space – looking for recommendations as to the best orientation.

Room is 4.2m (about 14 ft) square, 2.4m high. There’s a 1.8m glass sliding door on one side, facing north on to a courtyard.

At this stage I’m looking at orienting the room as shown, with the front speakers to the west wall. That puts the sliding door on the RH side of the listening position. I’m planning to have both heavy curtains and light sheers over the glass door.

Listening is 90% two channel with a bit of 5.1, but I may put ceiling or wall-mounted height speakers in at some stage, so hoping to pre-wire for these. Wall mounting the surrounds might also be an option. Main speakers are Focal Aria 906 stand mounts.

Should I be considering alternative orientations? We won’t be using the sliding door so could conceivably swing the layout around 90 degrees.

[BRS]

See how it sounds as you have planned then, swing 90 degrees and compare. Try to have have MLP around 800mm (a 3rd of the depth of the room) from the front speakers. Definately need curtains over glass doors 

[almikel]

On 14/09/2024 at 3:54 PM, BRS said:

See how it sounds as you have planned then, swing 90 degrees and compare. Try to have have MLP around 800mm (a 3rd of the depth of the room) from the front speakers.  

I agree with this ^

I don't necessarily agree with this 

On 14/09/2024 at 3:54 PM, BRS said:

Definately need curtains over glass doors 

It's a great option to have curtains over glass for lots of reasons like privacy, reducing light etc, including for audio to absorb top end if required...but Gyprock reflects similar audio frequencies as glass in the top end - so having the curtains closed over the glass window will absorb more top end than the opposite wall for any 1st lateral reflections between your speakers and the listening position - this can create an "unbalanced" sound in the top end.

 

OTOH glass provides a great bass trap - it lets low bass out and reflects treble back into the room.

 

cheers,

Mike

[jazz1234]

On 14/9/2024 at 5:54 PM, BRS said:

See how it sounds as you have planned then, swing 90 degrees and compare. Try to have have MLP around 800mm (a 3rd of the depth of the room) from the front speakers. Definitely need curtains over glass doors 

Good suggestion thanks. I’ll be putting speaker wiring into the walls but hopefully can set it up for an alternative layout. Do you mean 2800mm from the front wall?

[jazz1234]

On 19/9/2024 at 10:52 PM, almikel said:

 

It's a great option to have curtains over glass for lots of reasons like privacy, reducing light etc, including for audio to absorb top end if required...but Gyprock reflects similar audio frequencies as glass in the top end - so having the curtains closed over the glass window will absorb more top end than the opposite wall for any 1st lateral reflections between your speakers and the listening position - this can create an "unbalanced" sound in the top end.

Thanks. So maybe some treatment on the wall opposite the glass could be helpful?

[BRS]

44 minutes ago, jazz1234 said:

Good suggestion thanks. I’ll be putting speaker wiring into the walls but hopefully can set it up for an alternative layout. Do you mean 2800mm from the front wall?

Apoligies. My post is a little unclear. Try to avoid having the MLP too close to the back wall. I have read a few posts suggesting the MLP should be out from the back wall a 3rd of the total distance from the front wall to the back wall i.e 2170 / 3 so that's 723 mm out from the back wall. 

[LogicprObe]

 

Curtains over anything is a great idea because you can .............adjust.

[Kirby66]

Square rooms can be problematic ... I moved my whole system into a similar sized / shaped room after purchasing some new speakers (the start of my disappearing act down into the rabbit hole) and there was no bass at all unless I went and sat right next to one of the side walls. A bit of research and a phone call to the speaker manufacturer confirmed that square rooms can present big bass nulls. I'm sure much of this could be addressed with room treatment.

[Keith_W]

The room you are considering is way too small - 2170 x 1800. Think about it - a typical sofa is at least 700-800mm, and a chair is 500mm. That is already 1/4 of the length of the room. To get an idea how big that space is, get a tape measure and measure out your bathroom. Most of us would have bathrooms that are bigger than that - the ensuite attached to my bedroom is twice the size at 2m x 4m. Three refrigerators side by side is already longer than that room's longest dimension. 

 

A room that size means that at no point can the speakers or listener be positioned at an adequate distance from any room boundary. This means a lot of early reflections that will smear the sound. I would only put computer speakers in there and forget about hi-fi because any decent stereo system would be a waste of money. 

 

I am sorry to be so harsh, but that is the truth. Is there another room in your house? If you are building it, can you ask your builder to increase the size? Or at least knock down that rear wall? 

[jazz1234]

1 hour ago, Keith_W said:

The room you are considering is way too small - 2170 x 1800.

That measurement is the dimensions of the sliding door (HxW). The room is 4200 x 4200. Sorry if that wasn’t clear.

[jazz1234]

2 hours ago, Kirby66 said:

Square rooms can be problematic ... I moved my whole system into a similar sized / shaped room after purchasing some new speakers (the start of my disappearing act down into the rabbit hole) and there was no bass at all unless I went and sat right next to one of the side walls.

Thanks for that. Out of interest, were you using a sub? If so, did that help or hinder the bass issues?

[Kirby66]

No sub in that system ... just two stand mounts. I did notice that you have fronts, rears and a centre in your diagram so multi speakers with sub may change the outcome when in 5.1 mode - it was definitely the squareness go the room that was the big problem in 2CH mode

[Keith_W]

2 hours ago, jazz1234 said:

That measurement is the dimensions of the sliding door (HxW). The room is 4200 x 4200. Sorry if that wasn’t clear.

 

My fault for not reading your post carefully and making a fool of myself 

 

Anyway, room modes for a room dimension of 4.2m is 40.8Hz, 81.6Hz, 122.4Hz, etc. For the 2.4m ceiling height, it is 71.5Hz, 143Hz, etc. It actually does not look too bad when you plug the dimension's into REW's room sim: 

 

 

I would consider rotating the speaker/listening position 90 degrees so that the window is behind you. That way, you can open up the window and get a "bigger" room. It also reduces room asymmetry. 

[JkSpinner]

On 19/9/2024 at 8:52 PM, almikel said:

unbalanced

Can def create an unbalanced sound.  My room is 2m longer, and my door is probably just short of 4m.  If I do a measurement with the blinds open, I get a distortion warning, clothed the blinds, and it’s fine, just unbalanced.

[jazz1234]

5 hours ago, Keith_W said:

 

Anyway, room modes for a room dimension of 4.2m is 40.8Hz, 81.6Hz, 122.4Hz, etc. For the 2.4m ceiling height, it is 71.5Hz, 143Hz, etc. It actually does not look too bad when you plug the dimension's into REW's room sim

Interesting, thanks. I’ll give the 90 deg rotation a go, but as the window is also a door that may not last! 

[Craigandkim]

11 hours ago, Keith_W said:

I would consider rotating the speaker/listening position 90 degrees so that the window is behind you. That way, you can open up the window and get a "bigger" room. It also reduces room asymmetry. 

Yep, considering the room is square its definitely a good option.

I'd be moving my MLP forward away from rear wall (or sliding door if it turns out that way) in about 1.0-1.25m to potentionally avoid any standing waves against rear wall (this is where open sliding door could help!)

This would also help with stereo imaging - if speakers are 3-3.25m apart?