Emotional Speakers

[statman]

This is an old article and I'm biased as I'm also a triode/high efficiency guy as is the author .  It requires a long and patient read , but I think it's still relevant and reflects on what many of us believe is missing from hi fi today. 

https://www.stereophile.com/features/203/index.html

 

 

[David A]

 I just skimmed that article and it looks interesting. I'll read the full article later tonight if I have the time. But straight off the bat; If cost was no object, my dream system would include valves, vinyl and reel to reel tape. For me, audio nirvana is to be found in a harmony between typical audiophile qualities, and what Bruce Lee called "emotional content". Now i'll drink to that .

[THOMO]

Very interesting and important reading.

I have owned my share of high resolution "neutral" components.It seems you can enjoy them for a while for their audiophile qualities and detail but over time you lose interest in listening to them.I always seem to return to old favourites like my vintage Tannoys,Gale 401s,horns and  BBC influenced speakers.And valves in the system somewhere.

I suspect a lot of modern speakers do not sound good because the drivers are built to handle lots of power and processed bass.Like building a sports car with a truck suspension.They are over -built.The worst of them seem to use small long excursion drivers mounted on narrow baffles. Many of the better speakers only handle about 30 watts and are quite efficient.

There s a reason why a company like DeVore is selling lots of speakers.They are old school wide baffle /medium to high efficiency speakers.

Edited September 4, 2024 by THOMO

[Mendes]

9 minutes ago, THOMO said:

There s a reason why a company like DeVore is selling lots of speakers.They are old school wide baffle /medium to high efficiency speakers.

Hell Yeah !!!!

 

[David A]

3 hours ago, THOMO said:

Very interesting and important reading.

I have owned my share of high resolution "neutral" components.It seems you can enjoy them for a wile for their audiophile qualities and detail but over time you lose interest in listening to them.I always seem to return to old favourites like my vintage Tannoys,Gale 401s,horns and  BBC influenced speakers.And valves in the system somewhere.

I suspect a lot of modern speakers do not sound good because the drivers are built to handle lots of power and processed bass.Like building a sports car with a truck suspension.They are over -built.The worst of them seem to use small long excursion drivers mounted on narrow baffles. Many of the better speakers only handle about 30 watts and are quite efficient.

There s a reason why a company like DeVore is selling lots of speakers.They are old school wide baffle /medium to high efficiency speakers.

If I had the money, I'd love to setup a reading room system with Audio Note AN-E speakers, Kondo amps + cables & a reto'd Garrard 401 tt. I find speakers with paper and hemp coned drivers usually sound more natural and musical to my ears assuming good overall system synergy.

[FR DRew]

This is a really interesting one for me.

Up until very recently my "jam" was either ultra light cones and high efficiency (Fostex FE168's in horns, coral flat 5 audiospheres driven by triode connected el84 amp) or electrostatics (Martin Logan).   My belief was that emotional engagement would come from something that responded ultra fast due to low mass.

Currently I'm using some 80dB efficient ATC SCM10's fed by 140W or Class A Krell and the speed and realism and emotional engagement is just as high, if not higher.  This has been a real eye opener for me as the ATC's with high damping and low efficiency, (although designed to have very good linearity and low distortion) should in theory be the opposite of what I previously thought would bring me audio delight.  Nothing could be further from the truth.

Clearly it's not about tubes v solid state or high versus low efficiency...  (I would say that for me I've yet to hear an AB or digital amp that floats my boat like either tube class A  or SS class A does though...)

Hand on heart, no-one is taking that Krell off me until either it dies or I do, but I never expected that I'd love the ATC's as much as I do.

 

Edited September 4, 2024 by FR DRew
additional content

[dcathro]

15 hours ago, statman said:

This is an old article and I'm biased as I'm also a triode/high efficiency guy as is the author .  It requires a long and patient read , but I think it's still relevant and reflects on what many of us believe is missing from hi fi today. 

https://www.stereophile.com/features/203/index.html

 

 

 

One of my favourite audio articles by the late Markus Sauer.

 

This had a big influence on me nearly 25 years ago.

[Bisguittin]

There are some profoundly interesting concepts being discussed here. I fully concur with the observation that there can be an "at one with the music" experience with lower powered valve amplification and efficient speakers. My 71A power amplifier provides a miniscule 0.5w. I've never been happier with my musical enjoyment. But it's all about implementation. There are MANY and varied ways to get there. Like so many human preoccupations laid bare to critical analysis, the most significant metrics lie between our ears.

Edited September 4, 2024 by Bisguittin

[Andythiing]

[Andythiing]

[statman]

I have a speaker that uses vintage 80's drivers and horns -all very fine products that were expensive and highly rated in their day , and even more so now.

I've spent a lot of time on it and its pretty well sorted to my ears and taste. All active , a mix of tube and SS amps. 

I can use it with passive crossovers or with a digital crossover.

Using the digital crossover I can get near perfect phase and frequency response - it does everything right ,  theres nothing to criticise , its just about as good as it gets. 

But I cant connect to it, like I do with the passive crossovers, despite the passives leaving a bit to be desired in terms of technical performance . ( its very hard to get passives right , there are so many variables. )

I'd love the digital to have that "rightness" about it , but it just doesnt have the emotional connection the author of the article spoke of.

BTW I've progammed the passive filter characteristics  into the digital crossover , and while it sounds similar, it still doesnt do it for me. 

I'm not anti-digital, its a part of hi fi these days , and it sounds very good,  but this example cuts right to what the author of the aricle was trying to imply. 

[Ian McP]

11 hours ago, David A said:

If I had the money, I'd love to setup a reading room system with Audio Note AN-E speakers, Kondo amps + cables & a reto'd Garrard 401 tt. I find speakers with paper and hemp coned drivers usually sound more natural and musical to my ears assuming good overall system synergy.

 

The Audio Note room at the hifi show in the past couple of years has held me captive for way longer than any other room. There is something magical/emotional about those speakers that makes you want to listen for hours on end.

[Mendes]

11 minutes ago, Ian McP said:

 

The Audio Note room at the hifi show in the past couple of years has held me captive for way longer than any other room. There is something magical/emotional about those speakers that makes you want to listen for hours on end.

Yes, I'd have to agree 

[David A]

10 hours ago, Ian McP said:

 

The Audio Note room at the hifi show in the past couple of years has held me captive for way longer than any other room. There is something magical/emotional about those speakers that makes you want to listen for hours on end.

The AN room is usually in my top 3 rooms at shows. At the Australian Hifi Show in April, AN didn't have a room. Though I ended up spending the most time in the MaxMedia room listening to the little Pylon Audio Jade 20 speakers which were driven by a Fez Audio Titania integrated, and front end that included a Fezz Audio Equinox dac (designed by Lampizator) and Innuos server/streamer. The Jade 20's are floorstanding two-ways and employ a 12" paper cone midwoofer and horn-loaded compression driver with a Tractix profile.

 

My reading notes say "For small speakers, the Jade 20's scale up, have natural tonal colour & sound well integrated. Instruments have good weight. The drivers sound fast". Those speakers play big and were emotionally involving. Kudos to Cameron for doing a great job with setup as usual. Yes the Avantgarde Duo Mezzo G3's and Alsyvox Tintoretto's were better in absolute terms. But that system was the best value setup I heard at the show.

 

Edited September 5, 2024 by David A

[Honreekea]

12 hours ago, FR DRew said:

Clearly it's not about tubes v solid state or high versus low efficiency...  (I would say that for me I've yet to hear an AB or digital amp that floats my boat like either tube class A  or SS class A does though...)

Ditto!  And I've heard my fair share of amplification.

[David A]

22 hours ago, FR DRew said:

Clearly it's not about tubes v solid state or high versus low efficiency...  (I would say that for me I've yet to hear an AB or digital amp that floats my boat like either tube class A  or SS class A does though...)

You'd probably like the Vitus SIA-025Mk2 integrated. That amp sounds warm and tube-like in Class A mode. Kl.A mode just puts the amp into high bias Class A.

 

Edited September 5, 2024 by David A

[FR DRew]

19 minutes ago, David A said:

You'd probably like the Vitus SIA-025Mk2 integrated. That amp sounds warm and tube-like in Class A mode. Kl.A mode just puts the amp into high bias Class A. That said, my next speakers will be actively driven by 1000 watt Hypex Class D amps with ASP.

Possibly true, but I'm happy with the KSA80B...

[La scala]

This is more or less the Holy Grail of an audio subject to look into , well done to bring this to light Statman.

My take on this starts with the uncontrolled foot tapping , to me that's when you are halfway there.

Then the uber rare experience of actual goosebumps on certain vocal recordings , and man you reached the summit and are simply in awe.

Have experienced this wonderful sensation once on Huge Ribbons - Ambience Grand Reference on 18W Supratek Merlot Tube amps , swap to 220W Wolcott  Audio Tube amps and its gone.

 

So whats the magic formula... It may start with an all analogue source , tube pre and power amplification , very light efficient transducers - eg vintage fare wins with light pulp material or ribbons , suitable treated room and optimised speaker positioning  - 1 inch either way and its gone , speakers must virtually disapear. Plus those small things like cryo tubes and cables may assist with system synergy.

 

A audiogon comment had this to say :

Try old school speakers pulp paper and fabric drivers. You seem too focused on technologically advanced speakers that perform well on paper using rigid drivers. 

rigid drivers have great performance on frequency response bandwidth (technical) but they lack internal inherent damping in the transducers themselves which leads to resonances that affect timbre and artifacts that are often clearly visible on a waterfall plot.

The pursuit of frequency response alone has resulted in a bunch of technically excellent but emotionally uninvolving speakers. Half of the emotional connection in music is what you don't hear - the subtleties.

 

A take on the subject by PS Audio

 

[Peterbean]

13 hours ago, FR DRew said:

This is a really interesting one for me.

Up until very recently my "jam" was eitheultrazlight cones and high efficiency (Fostex FE168's in horns, coral flat 5 audiospheres driven by triode connected el84 amp) or electrostatics (Martin Logan).   My belief was that emotional engagement would come from something that responded ultra fast due to low mass.

Currently I'm using some 80dB efficient ATC SCM10's fed by 140W or Class A Krell and the speed and realism and emotional engagement is just as high, if not higher.  This has been a real eye opener for me as the ATC's with high damping and low efficiency, (although designed to have very good linearity and low distortion) should in theory be the opposite of what I previously thought would bring me audio delight.  Nothing could be further from the truth.

Clearly it's not about tubes v solid state or high versus low efficiency...  (I would say that for me I've yet to hear an AB or digital amp that floats my boat like either tube class A  or SS class A does though...)

Hand on heart, no-one is taking that Krell off me until either it dies or I do, but I never expected that I'd love the ATC's as much as I do.

 

Hi Andrew, it’s very interesting to follow your hi fi adventures!  
You are raising an eternal question. “ How good is the other “ 

[David A]

12 hours ago, statman said:

I have a speaker that uses vintage 80's drivers and horns -all very fine products that were expensive and highly rated in their day , and even more so now.

I've spent a lot of time on it and its pretty well sorted to my ears and taste. All active , a mix of tube and SS amps. 

I can use it with passive crossovers or with a digital crossover.

Using the digital crossover I can get near perfect phase and frequency response - it does everything right ,  theres nothing to criticise , its just about as good as it gets. 

But I cant connect to it, like I do with the passive crossovers, despite the passives leaving a bit to be desired in terms of technical performance . ( its very hard to get passives right , there are so many variables. )

I'd love the digital to have that "rightness" about it , but it just doesnt have the emotional connection the author of the article spoke of.

BTW I've progammed the passive filter characteristics  into the digital crossover , and while it sounds similar, it still doesnt do it for me. 

I'm not anti-digital, its a part of hi fi these days , and it sounds very good,  but this example cuts right to what the author of the aricle was trying to imply. 

My next speakers will use a phase-coherent cascaded electronic crossover with 1000 watt Hypex NCore mono blocks with 5 channels of amplification and ASP. And given the direction connection between the amp and driver, shall we say that is "plenty of power".

[Grizzly]

15 hours ago, David A said:

The AN room is usually in my top 3 rooms at shows. At the Australian Hifi Show in April, AN didn't have a room. Though I ended up spending the most time in the MaxMedia room listening to the little Pylon Audio Jade 20 speakers which were driven by a Fez Audio Titania integrated, and front end that included a Fezz Audio Equinox dac (designed by Lampizator) and Innuos server/streamer. The Jade 20's are floorstanding two-ways and employ a 12" paper cone midwoofer and horn-loaded compression driver with a Tractix profile.

 

My reading notes say "For small speakers, the Jade 20's scale up, have natural tonal colour & sound well integrated. Instruments have good weight. The drivers sound fast". Those speakers play big and were emotionally involving. Kudos to Cameron for doing a great job with setup as usual. Yes the Avantgarde Duo Mezzo G3's and Alsyvox Tintoretto's were better in absolute terms. But that system was the best value setup I heard at the show.

 

 

"Little" may be relative!

 

I have a set of the Jade 20 and concur they work particularly well with tubes and class A amps for a real musical cuddle, but can also get the air guitar swinging when the mood is right.

[statman]

8 hours ago, David A said:

My next speakers will use a phase-coherent cascaded electronic crossover with 1000 watt Hypex NCore mono blocks with 5 channels of amplification and ASP. And given the direction connection between the amp and driver, shall we say that is "plenty of power".

Whatever gets you through the night is alright............

[ENIGMA]

I wouldn't say its emotional speakers, is more emotional engagement. 

 

I've had the same effect whether swapping source components or amplification with the same speakers. 

 

I've sold some very highly regarded components purely on the basis of having plugged something else in and engaged with it more. Some of it was simply on the back of a mate wanting to just try an amp on my system for the sake of it.

 

That's pretty much sums up why my system is what it is today - in a word, unique.

 

 

[POV]

On 05/09/2024 at 3:23 AM, FR DRew said:

Clearly it's not about tubes v solid state or high versus low efficiency...  (I would say that for me I've yet to hear an AB or digital amp that floats my boat like either tube class A  or SS class A does though...)

 

Curious which digital amplifiers you've listened to for context?  Given there's a relatively small number on the market from a select few manufacturers.

[FR DRew]

7 minutes ago, POV said:

 

Curious which digital amplifiers you've listened to for context?  Given there's a relatively small number on the market from a select few manufacturers.

Honestly can't recall what they were.  Didn't really move me to the point that I'd allocate time and resources changing what I already enjoy.  I know they have their devotees and that's fine.  It's not a rabbit hole that i'm seeking.  I'm time poor as it is and living 45 mins from a city that on its good days has a pretty limited range of gear, so to have found something I'm happy with suits me fine.