I like your new stuff better than your old stuff

[crisis]

 

I follow a few Facebook hifi buy and sell pages as I'm sure a few here would. I'm not a FB "blocker". If I have a  discussion/argument then I think I should have enough maturity to be able to take what I give. I'm fairly sure I've been blocked though...

My one exception though is anyone who advertises anything, perhaps other than a car, as "vintage". "Vintage hifi" means old or even worse obsolete (actually I'm not sure which is worse) to me. If "vintage" is the selling point then the rest of the deal must be rubbish.

Full disclosure - I haven't owned as much equipment as most of you have. Probably half a dozen amps, CD players and speaker and four turntables.

From reading (yes I know the risk of trusting reviewers) it seems there is far less "bad" equipment out there now than there was maybe 30 years ago. Technology has improved as have manufacturing methods and I guess continuous improvement plays a part.

I'm sure you can find rubbish but from mainstream known manufactures there would be little around that is truly objectionable, In fact the performance/price equation seems to have improved greatly. Now lets remove the high end products when we talk about old/vintage but remember the bottom clenching cost of admission there.

Am I wrong? Is a 30 year old Sansui, Pioneer, Sony, Toshiba, Akai, Marantz, (actually I think they were crap back then), etc anywhere near comparable to a new Denon, Yamaha, Rotel or NAD? Similarly speakers.

 

 

Edited August 8, 2024 by crisis

[Hydrology]

The dictionary defines "vintage" as "denoting something from the past of high quality, especially something representing the best of its kind". Of course, WHO determines that the item in question is indeed, truly, the best of its kind, is debatable.

 

I for one certainly don't take umbrage to wording being used to describe something, incorrectly or otherwise, life's too short for that.

Audio however is such a personal thing and we all like different things - who are we to argue that one persons rubbish is another's treasure? It's an intrinsic part of being an "audiophile". An old Accuphase amp for example will most likely sound better than a reasonably priced modern Denon, but I doubt if you asked 100 people you would get 100% one-sided answer.

[crisis]

1 hour ago, Hydrology said:

The dictionary defines "vintage" as "denoting something from the past of high quality, especially something representing the best of its kind". Of course, WHO determines that the item in question is indeed, truly, the best of its kind, is debatable.

 

I for one certainly don't take umbrage to wording being used to describe something, incorrectly or otherwise, life's too short for that.

Audio however is such a personal thing and we all like different things - who are we to argue that one persons rubbish is another's treasure? It's an intrinsic part of being an "audiophile". An old Accuphase amp for example will most likely sound better than a reasonably priced modern Denon, but I doubt if you asked 100 people you would get 100% one-sided answer.

Id suggest many people using the qualifier haven't read the dictionary definition. I noticed another thread dedicated to Vintage gear and I deliberately didn't include my rant for the reasons you suggest. If people like the gear then knock yourselves out. My personal peeve is the cynical use of the term for anything that is old. FWIW I would love and will ultimately buy an "old" 78 player for aesthetic value to put as a decorative piece in my stereo room. I wont be listening to it.

[audiofeline]

Yes, technology has improved as have manufacturing methods and I guess continuous improvement plays a part.   There is certainly a lot of "average" "vintage" hifi around.   But that doesn't mean that there isn't ordinary modern hifi made now.  A lot of "vintage" electronics is able to be serviced.  The majority of modern electronics has intricate circuit boards that are not able to be serviced, if it breaks and there are no longer replacement boards available, it goes into landfill.  And while acknowledging that technology and manufacturing has improved, there are many vintage amps, turntables and speakers that (if they up to spec) will hold their own against (or beat) many modern equivalents. 

 

I have a beef with the word "vintage" being used to describe hifi gear - it's often applied to equipment made in the 1980's+.  To my mind, that's modern gear!  I think of vintage as going to the 1970's.  Perhaps I need to change my mindset!

[crisis]

7 minutes ago, audiofeline said:

Yes, technology has improved as have manufacturing methods and I guess continuous improvement plays a part.   There is certainly a lot of "average" "vintage" hifi around.   But that doesn't mean that there isn't ordinary modern hifi made now.  A lot of "vintage" electronics is able to be serviced.  The majority of modern electronics has intricate circuit boards that are not able to be serviced, if it breaks and there are no longer replacement boards available, it goes into landfill.  And while acknowledging that technology and manufacturing has improved, there are many vintage amps, turntables and speakers that (if they up to spec) will hold their own against (or beat) many modern equivalents. 

 

I have a beef with the word "vintage" being used to describe hifi gear - it's often applied to equipment made in the 1980's+.  To my mind, that's modern gear!  I think of vintage as going to the 1970's.  Perhaps I need to change my mindset!

Interestingly (or not) I referred to "30 years ago" ... That's the 90s!!!!!! That's not what I meant! How our perception changes when we are "vintage"!

[Hydrology]

1 hour ago, crisis said:

My personal peeve is the cynical use of the term for anything that is old. FWIW I would love and will ultimately buy an "old" 78 player for aesthetic value to put as a decorative piece in my stereo room. I wont be listening to it.

 

How do/would you know everyone using the term is doing it deliberately? My friends teenage kids call me old - I've just turned 50!

 

[Mendes]

9 minutes ago, Hydrology said:

How do/would you know everyone using the term is doing it deliberately? My friends teenage kids call me old - I've just turned 50!

I wish I was old like you Mark 

 

 

[wen]

I don't feel the "vintage" description really matters, if this is what steers you to a purchase, so be it.

Research is the key to purchase, auditioning where possible, it's always buyer be aware.

[Hydrology]

1 hour ago, Mendes said:

I wish I was old like you Mark 

 

 

 

Vintage!

[Mendes]

Just now, Hydrology said:

Vintage!

You and me both mate....

[stereonut]

4 minutes ago, Mendes said:

You and me both mate....

Makes me feel ancient

[Cafad]

5 hours ago, crisis said:

 

Am I wrong? Is a 30 year old Sansui, Pioneer, Sony, Toshiba, Akai, Marantz, (actually I think they were crap back then), etc anywhere near comparable to a new Denon, Yamaha, Rotel or NAD? Similarly speakers.

In some cases.  There are several models of Sansui, and one or two from Pioneer and Onkyo, from the 80's and 90's that were extremely good and I would choose them (with some service work to make sure they are operating correctly) over a modern Marantz, Sony, Denon or Yamaha any day of the week.  

[Grant Slack]

9 hours ago, wen said:

I don't feel the "vintage" description really matters, if this is what steers you to a purchase, so be it.

Hi wen,

I think the point being made in the OP is that the word is often used alongside an elevated price. Even when the goods are not a genuine desirable-collectible, but just something old.

 

9 hours ago, wen said:

Research is the key to purchase, auditioning where possible, it's always buyer be aware.

Sure. But it's okay... maybe better-than-okay... to raise a thread to discuss one of the ways that sellers can try to trick buyers.

 

cheers

Grant

[Cloth Ears]

9 hours ago, Cafad said:

In some cases.  There are several models of Sansui, and one or two from Pioneer and Onkyo, from the 80's and 90's that were extremely good and I would choose them (with some service work to make sure they are operating correctly) over a modern Marantz, Sony, Denon or Yamaha any day of the week.  

Ditto. Late 70's and 80's tuners from some of those manufacturers have not been beaten - and if you can find a good FM signal then you wouldn't bother with streaming or DAB...ever. My 1979 Sansui AUX1 was won of the best thought out and finest pieces of kit I've ever had - but it was an early series and prone to oscillation (I bought it for $5, spent about $400 getting it fixed and had 10 years of joy before it did it again - I think I sold it, broken, for about $400).

Edited August 8, 2024 by Cloth Ears

[FR DRew]

Hmm, in areas technology progresses, in others, there's a limit that is very hard to progress past.  At the end of the day, good engineering comes to the fore.

As things get older and some are destroyed they become scarce and the better quality items from days of yore can increase significantly in price.  That's tempered by the fact that higher end kit always depreciates significantly from its original unobtanium price level.

Certainly, paying a price premium for a vintage 3 in 1 radiogram of mid level is utter bollocks.

Getting my Garrard 401, Krell KSA80B, Nakamichi CA5 and ATC SCM10's at less than 10% of what I could buy equivalent new equipment for is a win I'm happy to take.  Good "vintage" is awesome!

[doogie44]

20 hours ago, crisis said:

Now lets remove the high end products when we talk about old/vintage but remember the bottom clenching cost of admission there.

I 'think' you meant the original cost of joining the high end (purchasing a high end amplifier)? But I am thinking more of the re-clenching cost of recapping and servicing of older electronic gear with good circuits and reliability sound. True, they are cheap. BUT, not cheap to get going again in best new (capacitor) specification.

 

I would put in competition with any middle of the range amplifier--and higher range too-- today the likes of restored Leak, Radford, Quad, Scott, Krell, Citation, ME and such. There is not too much clenching when you buy older high end ('vintage'). But I do love the older amplifiers and I am not a head banger.

 

I saw an older model Copeland amplifier in the Classifieds a while ago and recalled that particular sound very fondly. If I added up the cost of the usual restoring to the sale price I believe it would still be a bargain for great sound--even compared to a new item from some Eastern company. Then there was the elderly Audible Illusions Modulus 3A preamplifier (just beautiful music) advertised: ditto. Of course you could also actually listen to each kind of old and new item and compare! Radical, I know.

 

I note that many people hang on to their cherishd older preamps and amps even if they are not in regular use. I understand this. 

 

e.g. I own a DYNA FM-3 tube tuner which is a thing of beauty; probably the most natural reproduced sound I have ever enjoyed, especially live broadcasts. This was paradoxically never considered a high-end component, nor were the early Dynaco amplifiers bringing audio bliss to whole generations. It is currently not working since it's out of alignment--and can't be tuned in apparently without breaking something. In its lifetime after I bought it for some $500 around 30 years ago, it has been serviced three times, repaired once, pimped out with a modification once, and professionally aligned twice. The sum of these adventures is probably around $1,500. OK, it represents many thousands of hours of happy listening--and I would do it all again. Why? Because of the fantastic sound, that's why. It languishes in a cardboard box as a meditation object and talisman.

 

Interrestingly, the dozen tubes are still going strong and the Telefunken 12AX7s in particular are immortal, I think. I live in hope that one day a miracle might occur and the alignment become possible.

 

Plenty of car lovers restore their favourite models despite the dearth of safety features, poor fuel efficiency, expensive parts and carburettor issues; they live for the appeal of the thrill of driving. By analaogy I think that hi fi lovers are much better off because so many of the old circuit designs and sonic signatures have never been surpassed--merely equalled or approximated. Yes, there is better circuit regulation and better bandwidth and superior 'driving' capacity in many newer amplifiers BUT in a moderate price range and for most purposes, the older amplifiers have nothing to apologise for when on song, driving appropriate speakers. 

 

eg Conrad Johnson PV-5 preamplifier; Quichsilver Mono 

 

In my next life I will be coming back as a techie with a drawer full of premium caps and wire. Then this discussion becomes moot. [Presuming I make it back as an audiophile, that is...and not the equivalent of an earbud-wearing, MP3-loving, background music-listening, multitasking, bright young thing (suppresses a shudder) ]

 

Just my 2c worth

[crisis]

On 09/08/2024 at 9:01 AM, FR DRew said:

Certainly, paying a price premium for a vintage 3 in 1 radiogram of mid level is utter bollocks.

 

I'm fairly sure I saw new versions of these being sold as retro hifi.

[crisis]

13 hours ago, doogie44 said:

 

I would put in competition with any middle of the range amplifier--and higher range too-- today the likes of restored Leak, Radford, Quad, Scott, Krell, Citation, ME and such. There is not too much clenching when you buy older high end ('vintage'). But I do love the older amplifiers and I am not a head banger.

 

 

No problems with the likes of that type of gear. I'm referring more to the gear that was crap when it was new and the only selling point for it now is that its old/vintage.

[FR DRew]

8 hours ago, crisis said:

No problems with the likes of that type of gear. I'm referring more to the gear that was crap when it was new and the only selling point for it now is that its old/vintage.

Ah, yes, well then that is definitely bollocks.

I don't care how vintage it is, my parents Rambler 3 in one was a **** amp, a **** turntable and a **** pair of speakers.

BTW, if you want to see servicepersons personal hell, open the case on a Luxman SQ606...  WTAF??? #ratsnest

[grammefriday]

My first 'proper' amp was the NAD 7020 in 1980 which was basically the 3020 amp with a tuner.

It was only 20w but had a lovely warm tone that I really enjoyed. It is now considered a 'vintage' amp I believe ......

[andyr]

On 09/08/2024 at 8:10 PM, doogie44 said:

In my next life I will be coming back as a techie with a drawer full of premium caps and wire. Then this discussion becomes moot. [Presuming I make it back as an audiophile, that is...and not the equivalent of an earbud-wearing, MP3-loving, background music-listening, multitasking, bright young thing (suppresses a shudder) ]

 

Depends how 'worthy' you were in this life, David.    You might be reincarnated as a mosquito!

 

On 09/08/2024 at 8:10 PM, doogie44 said:

But I do love the older amplifiers and I am not a head banger.

 

In terms of 'modern' amplifiers ... I suggest you need to have a listen to a Hugh Dean 'AKSA' amp.  These are newly designed amplifiers with a wonderful sound - which are not pushed by retail establishments.

 

On 09/08/2024 at 8:10 PM, doogie44 said:

e.g. I own a DYNA FM-3 tube tuner which is a thing of beauty; probably the most natural reproduced sound I have ever enjoyed, especially live broadcasts. This was paradoxically never considered a high-end component, nor were the early Dynaco amplifiers bringing audio bliss to whole generations. It is currently not working since it's out of alignment--and can't be tuned in apparently without breaking something. In its lifetime after I bought it for some $500 around 30 years ago, it has been serviced three times, repaired once, pimped out with a modification once, and professionally aligned twice. The sum of these adventures is probably around $1,500. OK, it represents many thousands of hours of happy listening--and I would do it all again. Why? Because of the fantastic sound, that's why. It languishes in a cardboard box as a meditation object and talisman.

 

Aah, very sad.  

 

On 09/08/2024 at 8:10 PM, doogie44 said:

BUT in a moderate price range and for most purposes, the older amplifiers have nothing to apologize for when on song, driving appropriate speakers

 

True.  

 

On 09/08/2024 at 8:10 PM, doogie44 said:

By analaogy I think that hi fi lovers are much better off because so many of the old circuit designs and sonic signatures have never been surpassed--merely equalled or approximated. Yes, there is better circuit regulation and better bandwidth and superior 'driving' capacity in many newer amplifiers . 

 

And they can actually sound better!  IOW ... things have advanced.  

 

[Sansui77]

Mid / high end equipment.

Price point, built quality, sound & reliability.....

I like old stuff better than new stuff to some degree.

 

This is one example: UK speaker brand now owned by the Chinese. They still make the exact same model for the last 40 years. New retails for $12,000. I bought a mid 90's version that were built in the UK in mint condition shipped from Germany - landed for 1/3 of the price. The new model has cost cutting for more profit.

 

* Rear badge was made of aluminium. New model is made of a sticker.

* Rear terminals are gold plated copper. New model is gold plated steel.

* Pre 1995 all models are made in the UK. Everything apart from the 8.5" woofer is made in China.

 

Another example; I've lost count of the number of post on sna with new pre $3000 cd players that need repairs. My top of the line Sony ES SACD player from 2003 is faultless, built like a brick sh#thouse and is fitted with one of the best lasers ever made but imo new DACs are much better than the one fitted in the Sony so that's why I only use it as a transport. There are some things I won't buy old as new technology has evolved.

 

 

[sloper]

Yeh problem with Vintage gear, it can be fixed that makes it much better than this modern stuff.

 

regards Bruce

[crisis]

2 hours ago, sloper said:

Yeh problem with Vintage gear, it can be fixed that makes it much better than this modern stuff.

 

regards Bruce

Had my Primare CD35 repaired when an update bricked it.

My “problem” is not necessarily with the gear, but the tag being given to everything which is basically simply “old”. Reliability and repairability are important but play no part in how the components sound. When I see ads for “vintage” gear on the likes of Facebook I’m sure they are not trying to sell these attributes..

Personally, in my experience, I would take none of my previous gear from the 80s, 90s, or early 2000s over what I have now.

[Domo]

I'm a huge fan of vintage but you do see some funny stuff online now that's it's worth something.

I like when you see absolute entry level 80s gear from Sansui or Sherwood or Pye or whatever with plastic knobs and pressboard cabinets and the ad is like "vintage hi-fi, they don't make them like this anymore, $500"