Humming from Speaker

[SimonNo10]

Hi all. This has been an ongoing issue for some time now and I've gone to some expense trying to eliminate it. So first my equipment is as follows:

1. Trinnov Altitude 16 processor

2. Parasound A52+ 5 channel amp. Electra HD 7 channel amp.

3. Pansonic 820 4k Bluray player

4. JVC N5 4K projector

5. 2x SVS Ultra 16 subs

6. GigaWatt PC-3 SE EVO+ Power Conditioner. Holton DC Blocker. Puritan PS108 powerstrip.

7. All speakers are Krix Megaphonix except the Atmos ceiling speakers which are the Hyperponix 45's (4).

 

System is a 7.2.4 Atmos setup.

 

So all the equipment are connected into the Puritan powerstrip which then connects to the Holton DC Blocker which connects into the Gigawatt power conditioner and into a dedicated 15amp wall socket. The system is running on a deidcated 15amp circuit (recently installed to replace previous 15amp socket) except the projector which is plugged into it's own wall socket sitting behind it. I'll provide  links for  the Gigawatt, Puritan and Holton. The Parasound amp powers the Front 3 speakers and 2 surrounds (5 channels in total) The Electra powers the 4 Atmos ceiling speakers and the Back 2 Rear speakers (6 channels in total)

 

The amps are all connected using new XLR interconnects including the subs and I'm using new Trigger cables between the Trinnov and the amps and Subs. All cables are shielded as advertised. Bluray player and projector are connected with Ruipro 8k optical HDMI's, Bluray player is connected to the Trinnov using an Audio Quest 4K certified HDMI cable. So the symptom is that the Front Right speaker only emits a humming sound which disipates after the system is on for approx 10mins after being turned on then goes away to a very slight hum. I have 2 presets on the Trinnov, one for Movies (Turns on everything) and one for Music which doesn't turn on the projector but everything else. The hum is louder on preset 2 and when I turn off the system the hum moves to the back right rear speaker. So the Parasound turns off first and then the delay for the Electra but in that moment the hum comes out of ther mentioned speaker being the back right rear speaker. I removed the XLR for the front right speaker and connected it to a spare XLR input on the Trinnov seeing if the input on the Trinnov was faulty but it wasn't. 

 

Since I've had this issue I've upgraded all XLR cables (sponsored company on here), new HDMI cables, a new dedicated 15amp circuit replacing the previous one that was also deidcated but had it isolated and neater than the previous install. Work was carried out by Mark Steven from Superb Home Cinema (highly recommended). We tried a few things on the main switch board eliminating safetly switches etc, running the amps on General power, replaced the speaker cable on the Front Right speaker etc but nothing removed this hum. I sent the Parasound amp recently for testing and was given the all clear. The only things that remain are sending the Electra off for a service and checkup, replacing the speaker cabling that I had installed approx 8-10 years ago for the back surrounds and back rear channels. All other cabling are new. Powercables are mostly Voodoo and some Isotech. Not using any generic powercords but have tested with them to eliminate a bad powercord.

 

So any thoughts guys or anything I could try? I may have missed some things that I've tested as it's been happing for awhile now, it's not affecting the sound quality it's just annoying that it keeps happening despite everything I've done. Yesterday I rearranged the equipment, moving the amps and Trinnov to allow for better cable management behind the lowline entertainment unit, hum is still present.

 

https://www.noteworthyaudio.com/products/puritan-audio-106-series-power-strips

 

https://recordclean.com.au/gigawatt-pc-3-evo-power-conditioner.html

 

https://holtonprecisionaudio.com/products/audio-dc-blocker-one-r4

 

 

 

 

[Jakeyb77_Redux]

Might sound silly but have you swapped L and R front speakers to see if the problem moves? 
I’d be subtracting items one by one to isolate the problem rather than adding new things first. 

[Quark]

1 hour ago, Jakeyb77_Redux said:

Might sound silly but have you swapped L and R front speakers to see if the problem moves? 
I’d be subtracting items one by one to isolate the problem rather than adding new things first. 

 

Agree, start by removing things, including the DC blocker and power conditioner - wondering if these could be causing harmonics as the manufacturers can't test them for every combination of gear.

[Kaynin]

Just a nightmare situation, we've all had this fun.  I had humming through my speakers, after a long and lengthy fault finding process I found it was some banana plugs I had recently introduced.  They ended up in the bin, such was my annoyance.

 

Yep, try to isolate it to a piece of equipment by swapping speakers and components around.  Borrow some gear if need be, you really want to get down to one piece of equipment.  Even just sending off gear for testing may not pick up the issue if the issue can't be replicated at their end.  

[SimonNo10]

2 hours ago, Jakeyb77_Redux said:

Might sound silly but have you swapped L and R front speakers to see if the problem moves? 
I’d be subtracting items one by one to isolate the problem rather than adding new things first. 

Yes done that.

[SimonNo10]

1 hour ago, Quark said:

 

Agree, start by removing things, including the DC blocker and power conditioner - wondering if these could be causing harmonics as the manufacturers can't test them for every combination of gear.

Was happening before the DC Blocker or conditioner were introduced.

 

[Quark]

6 minutes ago, SimonNo10 said:

Was happening before the DC Blocker or conditioner were introduced.

 

 

Have you tried without the power strip e.g. just a cheapy power board?

 

[SimonNo10]

I personally believe now after everything I've done and eliminated, is that is a faulty cable/wall input for the back surrounds/back rear channels. These were installed by a HT company approx 8-10 years ago so I'll be getting Mark Steven to rerun new cable and check the speaker wall brackets while his here.

[SimonNo10]

2 minutes ago, Quark said:

 

Have you tried without the power strip e.g. just a cheapy power board?

 

No not yet. That Puritan doesn't do any filtering or alter the power in any way. It's just a distribution board, I had a Nordost Qbase8 before that and the problem exisited then and i was running an Anthem AVM-60 processor so the problem has existed for awhile. Had different speakers as well and was running 2 Electra HD's 7 channel amps. 

Edited July 22 by SimonNo10

[surprisetech]

Is all the in-wall signal and speaker cabling well separated from any mains wiring?  It should be kept well clear and any points where they have to cross must be at 90degrees and with some physical separation.  I did hear once of someone running speaker cables with the mains wiring because it saved them having to drill separate holes in the studs and noggins.  Not good.  And illegal.

 

It might be a long shot, but the only other thing I can suggest is to check which of your electronics devices have linear power supplies (LPS) i.e. transformers, and which have switching power supplies (SMPS), then use the Holton DC blocker to isolate the power connections of the gear with the LPS from everything else.

                                                                                        /  -> DC Blocker -> Powerstrip -> Gear with LPS

Dedicated Wall Outlet -> Power Conditioner  |

                                                                                        \  -> Powerstrip -> Gear with SMPS

 

The Holton DC blockers are great.  I'm using one to eliminate the hum that was occasionally audible from the toroidal transformer in my integrated.  But its effectiveness is limited if there are other devices putting DC on the mains on the outlet side of the Blocker.  I would recommend only connecting devices with LPS to the output of the Blocker.

 

Hope you can get to the bottom of it.  I had a similar issue in the system in the man-cave and it turned out to be an earth loop caused by the video connection between the Pioneer Universal DVD Player and the LG LCD TV.  An inline isolator fixed it.

[Kaynin]

1 hour ago, SimonNo10 said:

I personally believe now after everything I've done and eliminated, is that is a faulty cable/wall input for the back surrounds/back rear channels. These were installed by a HT company approx 8-10 years ago so I'll be getting Mark Steven to rerun new cable and check the speaker wall brackets while his here.

Are they connector plates?  Could certainly be problematic, anytime you introduce a connection you’re increasing the possibility of introducing issues.

 

If it were me I’d take the speaker down and run the installed cables direct to the speaker.  If hum goes then it’s the input you speak of.  If the hum is still present then I’d run fresh cable from the amp direct to the speaker.  If hum goes then it’s the installed cables.

 

 

Edited July 22 by Kaynin

[SimonNo10]

All great suggestions guys thank you.

[SimonNo10]

55 minutes ago, surprisetech said:

Is all the in-wall signal and speaker cabling well separated from any mains wiring?  It should be kept well clear and any points where they have to cross must be at 90degrees and with some physical separation.  I did hear once of someone running speaker cables with the mains wiring because it saved them having to drill separate holes in the studs and noggins.  Not good.  And illegal.

 

It might be a long shot, but the only other thing I can suggest is to check which of your electronics devices have linear power supplies (LPS) i.e. transformers, and which have switching power supplies (SMPS), then use the Holton DC blocker to isolate the power connections of the gear with the LPS from everything else.

                                                                                        /  -> DC Blocker -> Powerstrip -> Gear with LPS

Dedicated Wall Outlet -> Power Conditioner  |

                                                                                        \  -> Powerstrip -> Gear with SMPS

 

The Holton DC blockers are great.  I'm using one to eliminate the hum that was occasionally audible from the toroidal transformer in my integrated.  But its effectiveness is limited if there are other devices putting DC on the mains on the outlet side of the Blocker.  I would recommend only connecting devices with LPS to the output of the Blocker.

 

Hope you can get to the bottom of it.  I had a similar issue in the system in the man-cave and it turned out to be an earth loop caused by the video connection between the Pioneer Universal DVD Player and the LG LCD TV.  An inline isolator fixed it.

What inline isolator did you use and do you have a link please?

[surprisetech]

35 minutes ago, SimonNo10 said:

What inline isolator did you use and do you have a link please?

 

I'm only using a composite video connection in that system, so I just used one of these.

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/116230773559

They're a simple device, and inside is only a transformer optimized for the composite video frequency and bandwidth.

 

For a component video connection, there are products that do the same job, but with 3 in/out connections, like the Jensen VBH-3BB.

 

For HDMI, there are Extender products that use two Cat5e/Cat6 cables to extend the HDMI range.  Since the RJ45 connections on these products provide isolation, using them with Ethernet patch cables of your required length would provide isolation between 2 HDMI ports.  These ones are good for up to 30m and don't require external power.  I used them in our last home when that LG TV was our main telly.

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/404843107023

[WasM]

Could it be the speaker itself is the issue? Could not see if that been ruled out and how that was verified all good. 

[SimonNo10]

1 hour ago, WasM said:

Could it be the speaker itself is the issue? Could not see if that been ruled out and how that was verified all good. 

It's not the speaker as it was present in my last setup with different speakers. Same hum in the Front Right.

[SimonNo10]

6 hours ago, Kaynin said:

Are they connector plates?  Could certainly be problematic, anytime you introduce a connection you’re increasing the possibility of introducing issues.

 

If it were me I’d take the speaker down and run the installed cables direct to the speaker.  If hum goes then it’s the input you speak of.  If the hum is still present then I’d run fresh cable from the amp direct to the speaker.  If hum goes then it’s the installed cables.

 

 

Here is a pic of the speaker wall plate for the back rear speakers. Same ones are being used for the surrounds.

[Kaynin]

5 minutes ago, SimonNo10 said:

Here is a pic of the speaker wall plate for the back rear speakers. Same ones are being used for the surrounds.

 

Yeah that could easily be your problem.  Run some cables direct between amp and speaker and see how you go.

 

I only use these -

 

[Kaynin]

I run the below speaker cable direct from my amps to my ceiling and surround speakers.  No breaks in the cables, straight bare wire connection.  This stuff is great to slide through walls too, very easy.

 

https://www.digihaus.com.au/fire-rated-premium-in-wall-speaker-cable-14awg-50m.html

[SimonNo10]

1 minute ago, Kaynin said:

I run the below speaker cable direct from my amps to my ceiling and surround speakers.  No breaks in the cables, straight bare wire connection.  This stuff is great to slide through walls too, very easy.

 

https://www.digihaus.com.au/fire-rated-premium-in-wall-speaker-cable-14awg-50m.html

Ok that is somehting I will do with the back surrounds and back rear speakers, remove the speaker terminal plates and just run the cable through directly into each speaker. I can always remove one of the plates and see how much extra cable there is and feed it through to the speaker. I'll have to check if the installer left any slack.

[Kaynin]

Lol, you're about to find out how considerate the installer is...

 

Just make it as easy on yourself as possible because this is only to test things.  My concern is that you also have a hum in the front speaker.  If your fronts connect via those same wall plates, then that's a worry, but if they're direct wired then this may not be your issue.  Still, you have to test it out.  Like I said in my first post, I had a persistent hum in my stereo rig that haunted me for a couple of weeks, I was mainly thinking amps and interference, ended up being banana plugs.

 

Anyway, one step at a time to make sure you're - correctly - ruling out each component.

 

 

[SimonNo10]

10 hours ago, Kaynin said:

Lol, you're about to find out how considerate the installer is...

 

Just make it as easy on yourself as possible because this is only to test things.  My concern is that you also have a hum in the front speaker.  If your fronts connect via those same wall plates, then that's a worry, but if they're direct wired then this may not be your issue.  Still, you have to test it out.  Like I said in my first post, I had a persistent hum in my stereo rig that haunted me for a couple of weeks, I was mainly thinking amps and interference, ended up being banana plugs.

 

Anyway, one step at a time to make sure you're - correctly - ruling out each component.

 

 

Well I checked the wall plates and realised that when I had the major upgrade of speakers and going a scope screen etc, Mark ran new speaker cable from those wall plates (purple cable) which is how I knew. Those speakers cables (5) all come through the front wall and plug directy into the Parasound amp. The other 6 cables are also fairly new and were installed by Audio Trends when I went an Atmos setup.  So the cabling should be fine. I will check the banana plugs that are currently connected into the Electra amp ( 4 Atmos & 2 Back Rears) which Audio Trends did, could be something as simple as a loose wire or bad connector.

[Kaynin]

But you need to exclude the wall plates themselves.  You can do this by direct wiring from the amp to the speaker.  Also try swapping the amps over.  Change speaker connections between the Parasound and the Elektra and see if the hum transfers between speakers.

[SimonNo10]

1 hour ago, Kaynin said:

But you need to exclude the wall plates themselves.  You can do this by direct wiring from the amp to the speaker.  Also try swapping the amps over.  Change speaker connections between the Parasound and the Elektra and see if the hum transfers between speakers.

Yep will do. I'm back at work tomorrow so I'll have to wait until next days off to commit the time.

[SimonNo10]

Ok I have an update. I just purchased a new 7 channel amp being the Summit Audio A7. So Im using it to power 7 speakers and moved the Parasound to Atmos duty (4 speakers). On first start up  there was no buzz from the Front Right speaker like with the Parasound, but it was now coming from the Back Right Rear speaker. Only on startup and once the system was all powered up all channels were silent. On shutdown the same buzz came from the back speaker. 
 

So I did some reading today in relation to the Trinnov trigger outputs and triggers 2-4 are programable and 1 is just for the Trinnov power state. I’ve always had the Parasound connected to Trigger 1 and now the A7. So I’ve switched the A7 to Trigger 3 & the Parasound into Trigger 4 and the two subs into 1&2. Buzz is now gone from startup on the back soeaker, but buzz still remains in back speaker on shutdown. I’m going to try the A7 to Trigger 4 and Parasound to 3. It’s clearly a delay issue and how the triggers operate on the Trinnov. 
 

So will an external Trigger expansion device resolve this issue? Like the Emotiva ET-3 Trigger Expansion Module. 

 

 

Edited August 6 by SimonNo10