TJB2 Posted July 20 Share Posted July 20 I am currently looking at up grading my cartridge to get better channel separation and sound stage. I currently have a quintet blue that has a elliptical stylus. I was under the impression that the pecking order was Conical Ellipical Line contact Shibata Micro line. So I was looking for carts with a micro line. When I got to the AT OC9 range the seem to go Micro, Shibata and then Line Contact. Even the ART 9XI is a line contact where I would have expected it to be a Micro Line. The other cart I am looking at in this range is the Hana ML which is a Micro Line. Do I have it completely wrong or do Audio Technica have a diffent way of thinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cafe latte Posted July 20 Share Posted July 20 30 minutes ago, TJB2 said: I am currently looking at up grading my cartridge to get better channel separation and sound stage. I currently have a quintet blue that has a elliptical stylus. I was under the impression that the pecking order was Conical Ellipical Line contact Shibata Micro line. So I was looking for carts with a micro line. When I got to the AT OC9 range the seem to go Micro, Shibata and then Line Contact. Even the ART 9XI is a line contact where I would have expected it to be a Micro Line. The other cart I am looking at in this range is the Hana ML which is a Micro Line. Do I have it completely wrong or do Audio Technica have a diffent way of thinking. Micro line or micro ridge are thr best tips out there, I have no clue why AT put an old outdated inferior Shibata above micro ridge in the pecking order. Micro ridge tracks highs better, tracks the inner grooves better and lasts twice as long whilst not sonically degrading as it wears due to the ridge. A micro ridge or line will sound like new just before thr ridges wear out at 1000 hours, but the Shibata will gradually degrade, there is no contest. Chris 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TJB2 Posted July 20 Author Share Posted July 20 8 minutes ago, cafe latte said: Micro line or micro ridge are thr best tips out there, I have no clue why AT put an old outdated inferior Shibata above micro ridge in the pecking order. Micro ridge tracks highs better, tracks the inner grooves better and lasts twice as long whilst not sonically degrading as it wears due to the ridge. A micro ridge or line will sound like new just before thr ridges wear out at 1000 hours, but the Shibata will gradually degrade, there is no contest. Chris Yes that's what I thought. The ART range doesn't even has a Micro in the range. Looks like the Hana ML is going to be my best option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cafe latte Posted July 20 Share Posted July 20 5 minutes ago, TJB2 said: Yes that's what I thought. The ART range doesn't even has a Micro in the range. Looks like the Hana ML is going to be my best option. Apart the inferior stylus the Art are a very very good cartridge for the money. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TJB2 Posted July 20 Author Share Posted July 20 20 minutes ago, cafe latte said: Apart the inferior stylus the Art are a very very good cartridge for the money. Chris Yes I know, that's why I am disappointed that I can't get one in the ART range with a micro stylus. The other option is to save myself a lot of money and get the OC9XML Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aussievintage Posted July 20 Share Posted July 20 24 minutes ago, TJB2 said: Yes I know, that's why I am disappointed that I can't get one in the ART range with a micro stylus. The other option is to save myself a lot of money and get the OC9XML It is notable that their sales wording stresses - "special" line contact stylus. Maybe they feel they can attract sales by implying they have something new and different to offer here. Nevertheless, I have found micro ridge/line to be better than Shibata, so why risk going back to line contact? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cafe latte Posted July 20 Share Posted July 20 27 minutes ago, TJB2 said: Yes I know, that's why I am disappointed that I can't get one in the ART range with a micro stylus. The other option is to save myself a lot of money and get the OC9XML My 2c here is go the art. The Art 9 is a massive bargain for what it is stylus profile aside. Yes you will suffer a bit on complex inner grooves but the basic cart is amazing value for money. Then when retip time comes get a Micro ridge fitted and you wont look back. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cafe latte Posted July 20 Share Posted July 20 This is a comparison of micro ridge to Shibata (the line contact graph) for outer grooves and inner grooves vs frequency. Despite this I still think the Art is worthwhile as it is a fab cart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TJB2 Posted July 21 Author Share Posted July 21 3 hours ago, aussievintage said: It is notable that their sales wording stresses - "special" line contact stylus. Maybe they feel they can attract sales by implying they have something new and different to offer here. Nevertheless, I have found micro ridge/line to be better than Shibata, so why risk going back to line contact? Agree, but I still like the ART cart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TJB2 Posted July 21 Author Share Posted July 21 (edited) 3 hours ago, cafe latte said: This is a comparison of micro ridge to Shibata (the line contact graph) for outer grooves and inner grooves vs frequency. Despite this I still think the Art is worthwhile as it is a fab cart. Thanks for the info. Everything I have heard about the ART is good, but would still like one with a a micro stylus. Might just sit back and think about it for a while. Retipping is a good idea. Appreciate your input. Edited July 21 by TJB2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TJB2 Posted July 21 Author Share Posted July 21 I have just sent an email to Audio Technica asking why the beleive that their special line contact stylus is a better stylus than their micro line stylus. They obviously must have a reason because even their top of the range ART20 and ART100 only come out with the special line. Also asked if tghe will be bring out a ART9 with a micro line stylus. If I get a reply I will advise their reasons. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aussievintage Posted July 21 Share Posted July 21 52 minutes ago, TJB2 said: I have just sent an email to Audio Technica asking why the beleive that their special line contact stylus is a better stylus than their micro line stylus. They obviously must have a reason because even their top of the range ART20 and ART100 only come out with the special line. Also asked if tghe will be bring out a ART9 with a micro line stylus. If I get a reply I will advise their reasons. I will be most interested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cafe latte Posted July 21 Share Posted July 21 56 minutes ago, aussievintage said: I will be most interested. Me too. Some say the Shibata sounds different, but this is just not true, shown by this plot and a Hifi News comparison plot. Both show both tips identical until the drop off with the highs of the Shibata especially in the inner grooves. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cafe latte Posted July 21 Share Posted July 21 My opinion is because the Shibata has a sexy name and public perception that Shibata is better. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mkaramazov Posted July 21 Share Posted July 21 (edited) 23 hours ago, TJB2 said: I am currently looking at up grading my cartridge to get better channel separation and sound stage. I currently have a quintet blue that has a elliptical stylus. I was under the impression that the pecking order was Conical Ellipical Line contact Shibata Micro line. So I was looking for carts with a micro line. When I got to the AT OC9 range the seem to go Micro, Shibata and then Line Contact. Even the ART 9XI is a line contact where I would have expected it to be a Micro Line. The other cart I am looking at in this range is the Hana ML which is a Micro Line. Do I have it completely wrong or do Audio Technica have a diffent way of thinking. Just adding to the contributions from @cafe latte and @aussievintage. A couple of very useful resources for you @TJB2: First this fantastic old thread from VE on stylus profiles. Second, Audio Technica's own explanation of the stylus profiles they use. On the 'pecking order,' my understanding is that all advanced stylus profiles after the elliptical, starting with the shibata, are effectively 'line contact' stylii. The elliptical at its crudest is a modified conical; while the shibata, developed by JVC, was simply a modified elliptical - this was originally designed to meet the specifications of the CD4 Quadraphonic system. The current fad for shibata tips is strange since the shibata was the original line contact, and there are many more advanced stylus profiles that have been developed since, not only the microline, but also tips like the FG Replicant. Shibata tips are also - in theory - easier to manufacture than some of the more recent designs. However there are reasons that some audiophiles seem to like the sound of the shibata, and manufacturers have clearly been marketing these as 'superior' tips, even if they are not necessarily better. Although some manufacturers describe their stylii as 'line contact' in branding, exactly what these are can be unclear. The exact shape of Audio Technica's 'special line contact' (SLC) remains a mystery to me. Before the microline, Audio Technica sold a line point / line contact stylus (eg the AT155LC and the original OC9) which I believe in some literature was described as a modified shibata - I am not sure if that is what the origins of the 'SLC' shape is. One thing to note is that the SLC is a rectangular shank, which means it can be mounted with a high degree of accuracy on a cantilever. The ART 7/9 use some sort of miniature mount on the boron cantilevers that I have not seen on earlier Audio Technica boron cantilevers, and certainly this appears cleaner than stylii mounted on boron cantilevers with a glob of glue. It is also possible that these new SLC diamonds are smaller than current microline diamonds, thus reducing effective tip mass. All this said , I am also frustrated by the choice of line contact on the ART 9, rather than what I think is the superior microline. Certainly, my dream cartridge would be the low output ART 7 / 9XA with an ML stylus! Edited July 21 by mkaramazov Typo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TJB2 Posted July 21 Author Share Posted July 21 11 hours ago, mkaramazov said: Just adding to the contributions from @cafe latte and @aussievintage. A couple of very useful resources for you @TJB2: First this fantastic old thread from VE on stylus profiles. Second, Audio Technica's own explanation of the stylus profiles they use. On the 'pecking order,' my understanding is that all advanced stylus profiles after the elliptical, starting with the shibata, are effectively 'line contact' stylii. The elliptical at its crudest is a modified conical; while the shibata, developed by JVC, was simply a modified elliptical - this was originally designed to meet the specifications of the CD4 Quadraphonic system. The current fad for shibata tips is strange since the shibata was the original line contact, and there are many more advanced stylus profiles that have been developed since, not only the microline, but also tips like the FG Replicant. Shibata tips are also - in theory - easier to manufacture than some of the more recent designs. However there are reasons that some audiophiles seem to like the sound of the shibata, and manufacturers have clearly been marketing these as 'superior' tips, even if they are not necessarily better. Although some manufacturers describe their stylii as 'line contact' in branding, exactly what these are can be unclear. The exact shape of Audio Technica's 'special line contact' (SLC) remains a mystery to me. Before the microline, Audio Technica sold a line point / line contact stylus (eg the AT155LC and the original OC9) which I believe in some literature was described as a modified shibata - I am not sure if that is what the origins of the 'SLC' shape is. One thing to note is that the SLC is a rectangular shank, which means it can be mounted with a high degree of accuracy of a cantilever. The ART 7/9 use some sort of miniature mount on the boron cantilevers that I have not seen on earlier Audio Technica boron cantilevers, and certainly this appears cleaner than stylii mounted on boron cantilevers with a glob of glue. It is also possible that these new SLC diamonds are smaller than current microline diamonds, thus reducing effective tip mass. All this said , I am also frustrated by the choice of line contact on the ART 9, rather than what I think is the superior microline. Certainly, my dream cartridge would be the low output ART 7 / 9XA with an ML stylus! Thanks for the info, a very informative read for me. Really appreciate everyone's input. Think I will be buying the ART9XI, unless AT come back and say they are bringing one out in the near future with a micro line. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TJB2 Posted July 24 Author Share Posted July 24 Reply from Audio Technica ""The ART9XI features a Special Line Contact stylus which provides a smooth rich listening experience. It's design ensures excellent tracking and minimal distortion, making it perfectly matched to the design features of the ART9XI The Special Line Contact is the most premium of the Audio Technica Styl I designs.""" Plus """ At this stage we do not have any plans of realising a Microlinear version of the ART9"" They also provided a link to some info on their web sit. I found this info in there "" The Special Line Contact stylus is shaped to track the record groove with the highest level of precision, resulting in excellent high frequency response, low distortion and minimum abrasion. The Special Line Contact stylus makes more surface contact than any other stylus shape. It should be noted t that due to its high fidelity, the line contact stylus may produce more noise on heavely worn records."" Suppose the only way I am going to find out what is true and what is marketing is to buy one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aussievintage Posted July 24 Share Posted July 24 47 minutes ago, TJB2 said: Reply from Audio Technica ""The ART9XI features a Special Line Contact stylus which provides a smooth rich listening experience. It's design ensures excellent tracking and minimal distortion, making it perfectly matched to the design features of the ART9XI The Special Line Contact is the most premium of the Audio Technica Styl I designs.""" Plus """ At this stage we do not have any plans of realising a Microlinear version of the ART9"" They also provided a link to some info on their web sit. I found this info in there "" The Special Line Contact stylus is shaped to track the record groove with the highest level of precision, resulting in excellent high frequency response, low distortion and minimum abrasion. The Special Line Contact stylus makes more surface contact than any other stylus shape. It should be noted t that due to its high fidelity, the line contact stylus may produce more noise on heavely worn records."" Suppose the only way I am going to find out what is true and what is marketing is to buy one. It is as I surmised. They believe their "Special" line contact to be better than the others. I suppose that's fair enough, but they also seem to think Shibata is batter than ML, which I don't believe. That causes some doubt in my mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TJB2 Posted July 24 Author Share Posted July 24 40 minutes ago, aussievintage said: It is as I surmised. They believe their "Special" line contact to be better than the others. I suppose that's fair enough, but they also seem to think Shibata is batter than ML, which I don't believe. That causes some doubt in my mind. I assume that they don't make their own Styli, but could still have one made to their own specifications making it special and different. Probably will never know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mkaramazov Posted July 24 Share Posted July 24 1 hour ago, TJB2 said: Reply from Audio Technica ""The ART9XI features a Special Line Contact stylus which provides a smooth rich listening experience. It's design ensures excellent tracking and minimal distortion, making it perfectly matched to the design features of the ART9XI The Special Line Contact is the most premium of the Audio Technica Styl I designs.""" Plus """ At this stage we do not have any plans of realising a Microlinear version of the ART9"" They also provided a link to some info on their web sit. I found this info in there "" The Special Line Contact stylus is shaped to track the record groove with the highest level of precision, resulting in excellent high frequency response, low distortion and minimum abrasion. The Special Line Contact stylus makes more surface contact than any other stylus shape. It should be noted t that due to its high fidelity, the line contact stylus may produce more noise on heavely worn records."" Suppose the only way I am going to find out what is true and what is marketing is to buy one. Thanks for sharing this! I would love to see more details behind the claim that 'the Special Line Contact stylus makes more surface contact than any other stylus shape.' 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TJB2 Posted July 24 Author Share Posted July 24 1 hour ago, mkaramazov said: Thanks for sharing this! I would love to see more details behind the claim that 'the Special Line Contact stylus makes more surface contact than any other stylus shape.' Yes, it is a big statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonicArt Posted July 24 Share Posted July 24 just fitted an OC9XML to an Illustrious arm on my Oracle, fine tuning and running in this week then we will see..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TJB2 Posted July 24 Author Share Posted July 24 15 minutes ago, SonicArt said: just fitted an OC9XML to an Illustrious arm on my Oracle, fine tuning and running in this week then we will see..... Interested in your opinion aft eer run in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mkaramazov Posted July 24 Share Posted July 24 8 hours ago, TJB2 said: I assume that they don't make their own Styli, but could still have one made to their own specifications making it special and different. Probably will never know. I think this is interesting, as it is unclear how many different advanced stylus types there actually are out there once you cut through the marketing hype. My understanding is that there are only patents for 6 advanced stylii - shibata (JVC), Hughes (which might be Stanton / Pickering), microridge/line (Namiki), FG, vdH and the Ogura. Of these the Ogura is interesting as the patent describes a rectangular shank, which we know the Audio Technica SLC also uses. The below images are from the Ogura website. Interesting to contemplate who makes the SLC tip if it isn't Namiki... Btw, for those who care, here are the patents: Shibata (1972) Hughes (1973) vdH (1978) Ogura (1979) Microline (1983) Fritz Gyger (1986) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cafe latte Posted July 24 Share Posted July 24 18 hours ago, TJB2 said: Reply from Audio Technica ""The ART9XI features a Special Line Contact stylus which provides a smooth rich listening experience. It's design ensures excellent tracking and minimal distortion, making it perfectly matched to the design features of the ART9XI The Special Line Contact is the most premium of the Audio Technica Styl I designs.""" Plus """ At this stage we do not have any plans of realising a Microlinear version of the ART9"" They also provided a link to some info on their web sit. I found this info in there "" The Special Line Contact stylus is shaped to track the record groove with the highest level of precision, resulting in excellent high frequency response, low distortion and minimum abrasion. The Special Line Contact stylus makes more surface contact than any other stylus shape. It should be noted t that due to its high fidelity, the line contact stylus may produce more noise on heavely worn records."" Suppose the only way I am going to find out what is true and what is marketing is to buy one. As others have said, this makes little sense as we know what patents are out there and the Micro Ridge has the smallest minor radius and long major radius meaning it will track highs and complext inner grooves better than most other cuts. A VDH will track inner highs as well when new as it too has a small minor radius but it's minor radius will enlarge as it wears unlike a Micro ridge. The only tip I can think of with a larger major radius than a Micro ridge is the replicant but it's minor radius is larger too meaning it won't track highs and complex inner grooves as well as the Micro Ridge. Re groove contact being large this is not always a good thing, it is when the major radius is large and the minor radius is small like the Micro Ridge, but increasing the minor radius from 3um on the Micro Ridge to 6um on the Shibata for example does indeed increase groove contact as thry both have a large major radius,but thr larger major radius of the Shibata means it can't track complex inner groove highs as well. Add to this that with all cuts apart the Micro ridge the minor radius increases as the stylus wears meaning its ability to track decreases with time. Chris 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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