Tonearm Choice Advice - Older or Modern

[Sterg237]

Hi all,

Looking for some advice on tonearms. The arm will be fitted to a custom-made LP12, currently being built for me. A Hana LOMC will be the first cartridge installed, for completeness. 

 

I have on offer from a dealer two older tonearms, a Syrinx PU3 and a Roksan Artemiz. Both have been re-wired with van den Hul silver litz. The condition of the arms otherwise are not a concern for me, given it is a trusted dealer. However, at the approximate same price point, I could also consider new tonearms such as Rega RB3000 or Michell Technoarm 2, just to name a couple. The Syrinx would be $1,000 cheaper than the other three.

 

I can find very little information on either the Syrinx or the Roksan, but anything I have come across has been largely positive for both, albeit both tedious to set-up. I will have the dealer set up initially, so not overly concerned about that. But at some point in the future I will have to change a cartridge, or something, and I am someone that struggles with tediousness. I am currently using an RB330 on a P6 and find that easy to use.

 

I suppose my question is, I find it very hard to imagine that tonearms have not advanced so much over the decades, that the Syrinx or the Roksan should even be considered against modern offerings. Or are these older tonearms so good, that if they were released in today's market, with the van den Hul re-wiring, they would be priced at an even higher price-point, than the Rega or Michell. Or are they just sonically superior? 

 

Which way would you go?

Edited July 10, 2024 by Sterg237

[SonicArt]

I have extensive experience with all the arms bar the Artemiz, have set up a few PU3's over the year, lots of Rega's from the original RB250 to the current RB3000. I have rewired all the Rega arms, I have used different wire in arms, many years ago I tried silver internal wire, I was not a fan and neither were the listening panel who heard it. IME a high quality copper litz does not lose out on detail to a silver tonearm wire but it does have more body, meat to the sound.

 

My choice has always been Cardas litz as it is a very high performance wire, I can now add the superflex litz to the list of internal wires, up there with the Cardas. Recently I rewired two Alphason arms, both had the silver wire removed, including the silver VanDenHul external on one, both rewired with copper, and both owners are extremely happy with the sound they are getting now.

 

I do like vintage gear, I use an early 80's Oracle Delphi as a main TT, however when it comes to arms I swing more towards modern designs and personally use either a fully modified Rega (budget end) or an Origin Live arm for more serious stuff.

 

Michell makes some nice tables, but their arm is only a tricked up RB220. I dont have much love for the plastic bearings rega is using in the base model arm, if they were so amazing why is the next model up still sporting stainless bearings?

I have however, always believed that rega arms can be modified to perform extremely well, plenty of SNA members have had their arms rebuilt by me over the years, and bang for buck they are impressive performers.

But there is a limit to what they can do, the RB3000 whilst a lovely arm is still the same design only its entirely machined in metals and built in blueprinted fashion, so as perfect as they can get in fit and finish of all the parts, but continues with the same tube, yolk, clock spring vtf etc.

 

When you get up into the 3k range you have arms like the Origin Live ENCOUNTER to consider, dual pivot needle point bearing assembly, hand built in house in the UK and a very high performing arm with all the adjustments built in.

To be honest I would choose the OL ZEPHYR at 2k before spending on a Rega, the ZEPHYR is a really good arm for the money, there are a few SNA members I know of running the arm and loving it. But at the 3k point the Encounter is (to me personally) the pick.

 

I have run Oracles with PU3's, its a good sounding arm, but I do feel the vintage hype on some stuff veils the actual performance achieved. The Oracle sounds better with a Zephyr on it, I have had both on the table one after the other. I currently have an earlier Mk3 Encounter on my Oracle and its only very slightly better than the current Zephyr (and it has a full rebuild & rewire, much higher grade than factory), this shows me OL has been improving the product constantly over the generations. A current Mk4 Encounter gives you noticeably more than the Zephyr of course but its also 50% more to purchase.

[SONDEKNZ]

I started with a brand new REGA Planar 3 with a brand new REGA RB300 tonearm and a brand new AUDIO-TECHNICA AT 32E II MC cartridge.

 

I eventually graduated to a near new LINN LP12 with a mint LINN Ittok and a brand new SHELTER 501/2 MC cartridge.

That was more than 20-years ago and the LP12 hot-rodding has never stopped - and with that in mind, I REALLY hope you've instructed your builder to dispense with the "singing" LINN springs and fit Silicone Mushrooms instead.

A few years back we upgraded our (still mint)  LINN Ittok to a DESIGN BUILD LISTEN WAND PLUS 9.5" tonearm from New Zealand.

Nothing prepared us for the massive sound quality improvement.

 

Even with our humble DENON DL-110 HO MC cartridge - our daily run-about - it just sounds effortless, organic, soaring and superb!

(I wish I had changed the tonearm a decade ago...  )

 

Our highest recommendation!

Online raves abound!

 

 

PS:  That's a genuine LINN "Tawa" plinth - a native New Zealand timber... 

Edited July 10, 2024 by SONDEKNZ

[evil c]

Another firm fan of the Wand Plus tonearms, l upgraded from the Ittok LV11 and it was a massive improvement!

The micro detail and dynamics are off the charts with the Wand - and the Hana SL or ML are a very good match!,

[evil c]

I should add that Simon Brown, from Design Build Listen in NZ is fantastic to deal with and has all the necessary armboard and options for an easy install.

Very much a left field design unipivot arm, and slightly daunting initially - but  very  rewarding and aesthetics wise l love them .

[Sterg237]

Thank you all for the recommendations.

 

Bringing it back to the initial question, based on the responses/recommendations above, the general consensus seems to be a modern tonearm is preferred over an older? 
 

I’m not ready to rule out a vintage arm yet though. I would love to hear from others about how an older arm stacks up against a modern. There must be a reason they hold their value?

[SonicArt]

Collectibility is a big part of it, what makes certain arms collectible moreso than others is the question.... Some people rave about particular products,  others come along and bag the same product.

I have seen the jelco 750D bagged off as being an average arm,  yet my experience with it on a mk1 Oracle I serviced and upgraded was it sounded fantastic on that table.  It's always going to be subjective.

[Sterg237]

1 minute ago, SonicArt said:

Collectibility is a big part of it, what makes certain arms collectible moreso than others is the question.... Some people rave about particular products,  others come along and bag the same product.

I have seen the jelco 750D bagged off as being an average arm,  yet my experience with it on a mk1 Oracle I serviced and upgraded was it sounded fantastic on that table.  It's always going to be subjective.

Thank you @SonicArt. That was the view I was starting to form too. Collectibility vs upgraded/modern design. I found your post further above very informative. Thanks for taking the time.

[PKay]

31 minutes ago, Sterg237 said:

Thank you all for the recommendations.

 

Bringing it back to the initial question, based on the responses/recommendations above, the general consensus seems to be a modern tonearm is preferred over an older? 
 

I’m not ready to rule out a vintage arm yet though. I would love to hear from others about how an older arm stacks up against a modern. There must be a reason they hold their value?

I have an Alphason tonearm (latest version of the old model) serviced and rewired by Mark and I think it is every bit as good as my new and modern Audio Origami PU7 which is a fantastic arm. 
 

I can’t comment about other vintage arms. If you have the money a new PU7 arm would be a great choice. 

[Sterg237]

1 hour ago, PKay said:

I have an Alphason tonearm (latest version of the old model) serviced and rewired by Mark and I think it is every bit as good as my new and modern Audio Origami PU7 which is a fantastic arm. 
 

I can’t comment about other vintage arms. If you have the money a new PU7 arm would be a great choice. 

Thanks @PKay. Exactly the type of advice I was seeking. Sounds like an older arm can be refurbished to compete with modern arms. And as Mark said above, it’s subjective and a case of “choose your own adventure”. 
 

Thanks for taking the time.

[SONDEKNZ]

14 hours ago, evil c said:

I should add that Simon Brown, from Design Build Listen in NZ is fantastic to deal with and has all the necessary armboard and options for an easy install.

Very much a left field design unipivot arm, and slightly daunting initially - but  very  rewarding and aesthetics wise l love them .

 

Yeah, Simon is a fantastic guy to deal with.  The man's a Prince!

He included a WAND armboard for me and I was amazed at how well it is made - including his optimised cavities underneath, which help reduce unwanted resonances.

I have a brand-new STACK-AUDIO armboard waiting to be fitted to our STACK AUDIO sub-chassis - a complete MATCH no less - but have been loathe to change anything simply because the WAND PLUS 9.5" tonearm with Simon's WAND armboard just sounds so darned good! 
 

[aussievintage]

5 hours ago, Sterg237 said:

I’m not ready to rule out a vintage arm yet though. I would love to hear from others about how an older arm stacks up against a modern. There must be a reason they hold their value?

 

I don't think anyone has mentioned the look of a classic vintage tonearm.   I love the first SME 3009s for example, so that's what I run on my main table.  I feel the little bit of performance loss (and I believe it is small) is worth the pleasure of using a classic piece of engineering that looks the part.

[Sterg237]

4 hours ago, aussievintage said:

 

I don't think anyone has mentioned the look of a classic vintage tonearm.   I love the first SME 3009s for example, so that's what I run on my main table.  I feel the little bit of performance loss (and I believe it is small) is worth the pleasure of using a classic piece of engineering that looks the part.

Completely agree with you here @aussievintage. Aesthetics and the associated pride of ownership is important to me, even if there is a slight loss in performance. I know that may dent my audiophile credibility, but I don't lose any sleep over that! I must admit, the SME Series V is probably my favourite looking arm.

Edited July 11, 2024 by Sterg237

[PKay]

8 minutes ago, Sterg237 said:

Completely agree with you here @aussievintage. Aesthetics and the associated pride of ownership is important to me, even if there is a slight loss in performance. I know that dent my audiophile credibility, but I don't lose any sleep over that! I must admit, the SME Series V is probably my favourite looking arm.

Alphason looks great on a vintage deck. 

[Warren Jones]

My 2cents - I have worked on a few vintage PU3's and I wouldn't touch one personally. The bearings are inserted with no preload and in a bit of rubber to aid alignment, they looked like they were made in someones garage. My Technics EPA-100 killed both of them.

 

The Alphason on other hand I have heard a new one on my TT and it was good. The SME3009 is also an ok tonearm if you plan to use a vintage MM cartridge. Most of the high end vintage Japanese tonearms are on the better side of ok.

 

I modified a damaged SME3009S2 improved for a friend with a Stanton WOS it was seriously good.

 

IMO there are very few tonearms these days that are designed correctly. The Graham Phantom is an exception and there are probably others but I design and build my own tonearms so the EPA-100 is the only one I have that is a commercial product, even this one had it limitations until it was modified.

 

 

I've edited the post to reflect PU3 NOT PU7. My apologies for my confusion.

Edited July 12, 2024 by Warren Jones

[MrRogers]

2 hours ago, Warren Jones said:

My 2cents - I have worked on a few vintage PU7's and I wouldn't touch one personally. The bearings are inserted with no preload and in a bit of rubber to aid alignment, they looked like they were made in someones garage. My Technics EPA-100 killed both of them.

Warren, are you thinking of the Syrinx PU3 tonearm rather than the Audio Origami PU7? They are two different tonearms, different brands, different design etc. 

 

There has not been a single PU7 with bearing issues anywhere in the world in the last decade and a half that I am aware of. If in the event there was to be it would be covered by full manufacturer warranty. This has never happened because the bearings in a PU7 are special and will provide many decades of trouble free service. 

[Sterg237]

Thanks all. So based on the above responses, the PU3 would best be avoided?

[Warren Jones]

1 hour ago, MrRogers said:

Warren, are you thinking of the Syrinx PU3 tonearm rather than the Audio Origami PU7? They are two different tonearms, different brands, different design etc.

 

Yes my apologies I have edited the post to correct my mistake. The bearing housings look almost identical so hopefully they updated the bearing to correct the issues of the PU3

[Wimbo]

@SonicArt 

On 12/07/2024 at 8:47 AM, Warren Jones said:

My 2cents - I have worked on a few vintage PU3's and I wouldn't touch one personally. The bearings are inserted with no preload and in a bit of rubber to aid alignment, they looked like they were made in someones garage. My Technics EPA-100 killed both of them.

Do you know of this Mark?

[SonicArt]

I haven't needed to pull the bearings on a syrinx so I can't comment on how they are fitted or how well.  They are considered to be quite delicate though and the bearings and wiring are the two things often talked about in the PU arms.