Need suggestions for SUT

[Dinu]

Friends,

                I have a modest analog system. Technics SL1200 mkii modded with RCA connectors. Recently I upgraded to sparingly used Linn karma MC cartridge. My musical fidelity M1 ViNL phono does not have any gain in MC output. Could you please help in suggesting a matching SUT for Linn karma MC cartridge. 

 

[e83cc]

The optimum load for the Linn Karma is 470 ohms.

Your MM section will be 47kohms.

 

So your optimum transformer should have a 1:10 turns ratio or 20db of gain.

 

There are many vintage units that would do the job at modest prices.

You can check the gain on google before you buy.

 

Alternately the Bob's Devices suts get good reviews - they have a range to chose from.

[andyr]

Unfortunately, @Dinu, Nick ( @e83cc ) forgot that the output of the Karma is only 0.1mV - see here:

 

 

 

This means that, for a good match with your musical fidelity M1 ViNL phono stage (MM gain of 40dB = 100x) ... you really need a SUT with a minimum of 1:30 coil ratio.  At this minimum coil ratio ... the load seen by your Karma will be 47K / (30x30)  =  52ohms!

 

That is waaay too low to make the Karma sound good, I suggest.  

 

You need to use an active gain stage instead of a SUT, with a Karma.  aka a "head amp".  (This does not affect the loading like a SUT does - you instead use 'loaded plugs' to reduce the default MM loading of 47K to 470 ohms ... or whatever other value makes the Karma sound its best.)

 

[e83cc]

Quote

Unfortunately, @Dinu, Nick ( @e83cc ) forgot that the output of the Karma is only 0.1mV - see here:

 

OMG missed that.

You will need 26-30db transformer - I agree with Andy you are probably better off with a solid state mc stage or head amp.

 

You can now pick up Naim phonos quite cheap with the right impedance and gain.

[Dinu]

@e83cc & @andyr,

Thank you for your expert suggestions. Yesterday, I borrowed two different SUTs from my audiophile friends. One is the rothwell MC-1 - https://www.analogueseduction.net/phono-stages-phono-boards/rothwell-moving-coil-step-up-transformer.html, and the second is intactaudio - https://intactaudio.com/tran.html.

I wanted to share my experience. First, I tried the intactaudio 2-box SUTs. I connected the output from the SUT to the MM connection on the phono stage and tried different cartridge loading settings. There was no significant gain in the output. I had to increase the volume considerably on my preamplifier to reach the optimal listening level. Next, I connected it to the MC input on the phono stage, resulting in a 50% improvement in gain. I had to reduce the volume by half on the preamplifier. The bass was deep, highs extended, but there was excessive loudness making it unsuitable for prolonged listening.

 

Next was the Rothwell MC-1 SUT. This time, I connected the SUT output directly to the MC input of the phono stage. I only needed to increase the volume by another 5-7% compared to the Intactaudio SUT. However, the sound quality was truly excellent. Everything was presented in a smoother manner. There was no overpowering loudness. You could listen for long sessions without experiencing fatigue.

 

I believe a solid tube phono stage is the optimal choice for low output MC cartridges. I have limited exposure to high-quality solid-state phono stages. Experts here can provide further insight based on their experiences.

 

Require your expert opinion on Rothwell MCL - https://www.analogueseduction.net/phono-stages-phono-boards/rothwell-mcl-moving-coil-step-up-transformer.html

I believe this will address my needs.

 

I noticed two ads in the classifieds and thought they could bring a valuable experience to my setup. I would appreciate your guidance.

 

[andyr]

Aah, @Dinu,

 

It would seem you have not understood the basic problem with using a SUT with your very nice Karma.  That is ... its output is so low that using an appropriate-gain SUT (at least 1:30 coil ratio - ie. at least 30dB gain) - which causes the load seen by the cart to be reduced so much ... reduces the loading seen by the Kama to way below the optimum loading.  

 

The Accuphase C17 is a more appropriate device (it's a "head amp ") - but the ad doesn't state what loading it provides.

 

I found this:

 

 

 

 

As it offers 10ohms 30ohms and 100ohms ... that is compleely useless for your Karma!  In addition, for a 0.1mV cart, you probably need more gain than it provides.  

 

If you're interested in pursuing a head amp solution (instead of a SUT) ... as per my signature block, I can provide a 'Paris' headamp.  I can provide it with 45x gain - plus the load it provides the cart can be set to anywhere between 10 ohms and 47K by the use of 'load plugs'.

 

PM me if you're interested.

 

[Dinu]

Hi Andy,

                Thank you for your suggestions. I now grasp the idea of enhancing the subtle cues of LOMC. Kindly inform me if someone in India uses the Paris head amp so I can discuss their experience. Also, please share the best offer available for this headamp.

 

Thank you,

Dinu

[e83cc]

@andyr. @Dinu

Quote

It would seem you have not understood the basic problem with using a SUT with your very nice Karma.  That is ... its output is so low that using an appropriate-gain SUT (at least 1:30 coil ratio - ie. at least 30dB gain) - which causes the load seen by the cart to be reduced so much ... reduces the loading seen by the Kama to way below the optimum loading.  

 

Actually its a little more complex than this.

 

The Musical Fidelity M1Vinyl has an option to set the impedance on the MC input to 47k.

This is specifically to run higher output MC's.

 

So Dino can run a SUT into the M1Vinyl MC section, with the loading set at 47k, to get the gain he needs, and the impedance that the cartridge sees will be in range.

 

The only downside with this is that if the SUT has too much gain he could overload the MC input - and get a distorted sound. I see that the Rothwell at 22db works. The EMIA did not which had higher gain.

 

In Dinus post above he is getting enough gain with the  Rothwell at 22db into the MC section.

@Dinu if you are running a SUT into the MC section you need to make sure you set the loading to 47k for the MC input.

 

His second option is to run an active solid-state head amp into the MM section of the Musical fidelity M1Vinyl.

Edited July 7 by e83cc

[andyr]

Good catch, this:

 

13 minutes ago, e83cc said:

Actually its a little more complex than this.

 

The Musical Fidelity M1Vinyl has an option to set the impedance on the MC input to 47k.

This is specifically to run higher output MC's.

 

So Dino can run a SUT into the M1Vinyl MC section, with the loading set at 47k, to get the gain he needs, and the impedance that the cartridge sees will be in range.

 

The only downside with this is that if the SUT has too much gain he could overload the MC input - and get a distorted sound. I see that the Rothwell at 22db works. 

 

In Dinus post above he is getting enough gain with the  Rothwell at 22db into the MC section.

@Dinu if you are running a SUT into the MC section you need to make sure you set the loading to 47k for the MC input.

 

The Rothwell MC-1 has a 1:12.9 coil ratio - so, with the MC load set to 47k ... the resulting load seen by Dinu's Karma is 282R.  Yes, this is in the ballpark - but to get Linn's recommendation of 470R ... he needs to use a 1:10 SUT.

 

13 minutes ago, e83cc said:

His second option is to run an active solid-state head amp into the MM section of the Musical fidelity M1Vinyl.

 

I suggest the first option - with a 1:10 SUT - is probably the better option.  

 

 

[andyr]

8 hours ago, Dinu said:

Thank you for your suggestions. I now grasp the idea of enhancing the subtle cues of LOMC. Kindly inform me if someone in India uses the Paris head amp so I can discuss their experience. Also, please share the best offer available for this headamp.

 

Hi Dinu,

 

SNA has only recently had members in India - so, as yet, I don't have any Paris users in India.  But of course, I can put you in touch with Australian users.

 

Please PM me if you are interested in doing this.

 

[Gryffles]

@Dinu please consider the Sculpture A Mini Nano step up transformer. This unit was recommended to me and provides very nice sonics.

Please dont become obsessed with the load the cart will see via a transformer and concentrate on the correct gain whilst remembering that a lower gain will generally sound better.

Transformers have zero noise so by their nature are suitable for super low output carts. Look at the Benz Ebony TR 0.1mv and is named TR for Transformer due it's low gain.

[PKay]

9 minutes ago, Gryffles said:

@Dinu please consider the Sculpture A Mini Nano step up transformer. This unit was recommended to me and provides very nice sonics.

Please dont become obsessed with the load the cart will see via a transformer and concentrate on the correct gain whilst remembering that a lower gain will generally sound better.

Transformers have zero noise so by their nature are suitable for super low output carts. Look at the Benz Ebony TR 0.1mv and is named TR for Transformer due it's low gain.

Hi Ben,

What you are saying is generally accepted and is mostly fine.  Having the benefit of owning an EAR MC4 SUT which gives 4 output options, I have found that changing the the gain (on my Benz cart) each of the inputs does change the sound markedly.

 

@Dinu if you can afford the MC4 it is a brilliant SUT.

Edited July 8 by PKay

[andyr]

1 hour ago, Gryffles said:

@Dinu please consider the Sculpture A Mini Nano step up transformer. This unit was recommended to me and provides very nice sonics.

 

I'm sure it does, Ben.  As a SUT has no intrinsic noise and merely steps up the cart voltage by means of magnetic 'magik' ... it's hard for a SUT to produce 'horrible sonics'!

 

The issue - IMO - is merely to do with whether the loading which the SUT provides to the cart ... brings out the best in that cart?

 

1 hour ago, Gryffles said:

Please don't become obsessed with the load the cart will see via a transformer and concentrate on the correct gain whilst remembering that a lower gain will generally sound better.

 

I suggest if a lower gain sounds better ... it is not because of the lower signal magnification - but because the lower gain delivers a higher loading to the cart.

 

1 hour ago, PKay said:

Having the benefit of owning an EAR MC4 SUT which gives 4 output options, I have found that changing the gain (on my Benz cart) each of the inputs does change the sound markedly.

 

Again, I would suggest this is simply because of the loading changes which the different coil ratios deliver to the MC cart.

 

Edited July 8 by andyr

[Dinu]

e83cc / andyr/ Gryffles / PKay - Thank you, gurus, for your valuable suggestions. Based on all your expert advice, I believe SUT + phono is the correct solution. @pkay, I read about ear MC4 phono. It appears to be a suitable product for my needs. By the way, what cartridge and phono stage have you paired with this SUT? Which impedance setting is proving effective for you? Can you provide an estimate of the pricing for this product? Did you purchase it new or used? If you are planning an upgrade, kindly keep me in the loop.

[PKay]

11 hours ago, Dinu said:

e83cc / andyr/ Gryffles / PKay - Thank you, gurus, for your valuable suggestions. Based on all your expert advice, I believe SUT + phono is the correct solution. @pkay, I read about ear MC4 phono. It appears to be a suitable product for my needs. By the way, what cartridge and phono stage have you paired with this SUT? Which impedance setting is proving effective for you? Can you provide an estimate of the pricing for this product? Did you purchase it new or used? If you are planning an upgrade, kindly keep me in the loop.

Dino,

 

I bought mine new so it was expensive. They rarely come up second hand. 
 

I have borrowed a friend’s MC4 (who was lucky to buy second hand) so I currently have 2 in the system. 
 

one is set up on my Benz Wood SL cart and that’s on the 40 ohm tap. 
 

The other is a ZYX premium 4D -X set on the 12 ohm tap which in theory should have too much gain but my Tron Convergence Signature phono is very quiet so I haven’t had any issues.  No plans on selling mine. 

[Dinu]

@PKay Thank you for responding. Please keep me updated on your friend's SUT. If incase if he is upgrading. I could be interested.

[PKay]

4 hours ago, Dinu said:

@PKay Thank you for responding. Please keep me updated on your friend's SUT. If incase if he is upgrading. I could be interested.

It's very unlikely. You can buy directly from the UK Vat free.

[e83cc]

@Dinu

I think you should try a 1:10 transformer ( 20db ) as per @andyr suggestion.

This will provide the optimum load for your cartridge.

 

A couple of very good vintage units that readily available at reasonable cost are Deon AU340 and Entre ET100.

 

If I were you I would try one of these before you spend big.

 

 

[andyr]

1 hour ago, e83cc said:

@Dinu

I think you should try a 1:10 transformer (20db ) as per @andyr suggestion.

This will provide the optimum load for your cartridge.

 

But only into the MC selection of your MF M1 ViNL phono stage ... with 47k selected.

 

[Dinu]

@e83cc @PKayThank you & I appreciate all the suggestions and guidance. As recommended by @e83cc, I will begin with Denon or another reasonably priced SUT and upgrade later.

[andyr]

As long as it's a 1:10 SUT, feeding the MC input with 47k selected.