Tone Malone Posted May 16, 2024 Posted May 16, 2024 So I thought I could make life simpler by retiring my Bluesound Node (the early “cube” version) and using my new Samsung “smart TV” as an audio streamer. This TV is a model that uses a “One Connect” box for its hdmi, internet and optical connections, and can be hidden away neatly in an cabinet. It seemed like an all-round win when I first set it up – especially when I noticed a significant improvement in sound fidelity over the (admittedly outdated) Node. And then the intermittent audio drop-outs started. By this I don’t mean the sort of drop-outs you get with a loose cable – we’re talking a small fraction of a second, at regular intervals about every 10 seconds and just enough to be @#!?ing irritating. Sometimes the issue starts immediately, other times it can take an hour or more to raise its ugly head. For the record, the signal chain is: 1. Samsung TV using Spotify or the Plex app from a Synology NAS 2. Optical out from the TV’s One Connect box to a Geshelli J2 DAC 3. Analogue out (stereo RCA) to amplifier and speakers I’ve already done a fair bit of research on the issue. This includes testing and ruling out problems with the optical cable and connections. The audio always plays fine through the TV speakers (no issues with Internet) and occurs with both Spotify and Plex. I’ve also changed the TV optical audio out settings to PCM (thanks also to the advice on this in a different thread). No dice … The leading suspect now is that jitter from the optical out is creating problems for the DAC. Several Internet sources (mostly Reddit) have also flagged this issue with TV optical outs. Curiously, some posters say they have fixed the issue by changing the jitter settings on their DAC (not a setting I have available on the Geshelli) and that older DACs often work fine, it’s just newer ESS chip DACs that have issues. I also contacted Geshelli. They said, yes, they had heard of the issue (mostly with Apple TV) and suggested I try an HDMI audio extractor. So, it looks like free fixes are off the table and I’m now just hoping to go down as few wrong rabbit holes as possible. The main questions I have for the StereoNET brainstrust are: 1. Has anyone else tried an HDMI audio extractor for this, and did it work? 2. Can anyone recommend a HDMI audio extractor, especially one that hopefully doesn’t degrade sound quality. 3. Is there any dejitter product I could use through optical? 4. Any further first-hand advice on DACs that have overcome this issue also welcome. (Apologies for the long post – I wanted to share the experience in case it helps future members). Thanks!
Snoopy8 Posted May 16, 2024 Posted May 16, 2024 (edited) I use a KanexPro HDMI extractor and it works well. Bought that many years ago, and was supposed to be one of the better ones? Have not used this but at $31, maybe cheap enough to experiment? https://www.swamp.net.au/ugreen-60649-4k-hdmi-audio-extractor-with-spdif-optical-and-3.5mm-output Am somewhat surprised that the Samsung TV is better with Spotify than the old Node. Personally, I would not use a TV because it must be kept on to listen to music. Edited May 16, 2024 by Snoopy8 Typo 1 1
Tone Malone Posted May 16, 2024 Author Posted May 16, 2024 Thanks @Snoopy8, an inexpensive ~$30 experiment like that does makes sense. I'll add the Swamp Industries you flagged to the shortlist, especially as I've had good outcomes with the products Swamp sell. I'll probably buy one in the next few days, if anyone else has some good suggestions with HDMI extractors in the meantime please let me know. It's frustrating to add another box to the chain but it's looking near inevitable at this point. Re Samsung TV vs Bluesound Node v1 sound quality ... yeah, that was an interesting outcome. The old Node "cube" owes me nothing, but it had a thick bass that hid some definition, certainly compared with my CD player and turntable. I originally bought the Geshelli to bypass the Node's DAC but couldn't discern much difference when I went optical out from the Node - the sound signature seemed very much embedded in the Bluesound. The Samsung TV pathway definitely has its limitations, eg, Plex WAV files sound a bit "less organised" in the treble compared with direct from CD, but on balance I think it's preferable. 1
Snoopy8 Posted May 16, 2024 Posted May 16, 2024 25 minutes ago, Tone Malone said: I originally bought the Geshelli to bypass the Node's DAC but couldn't discern much difference when I went optical out from the Node - the sound signature seemed very much embedded in the Bluesound. You are not the first, nor the last, to underestimate how good a combined streamer/ DAC is. It is harder than people admit, to stitch a streamer, DAC and cable together to get good SQ. Suggest next upgrade to be a better streamer/DAC...
Grizaudio Posted May 16, 2024 Posted May 16, 2024 (edited) 5 hours ago, Snoopy8 said: It is harder than people admit, to stitch a streamer, DAC and cable together to get good SQ. 8 hours ago, Tone Malone said: So I thought I could make life simpler by retiring my Bluesound Node (the early “cube” version) and using my new Samsung “smart TV” as an audio streamer. This TV is a model that uses a “One Connect” box for its hdmi, internet and optical connections, and can be hidden away neatly in an cabinet. It seemed like an all-round win when I first set it up – especially when I noticed a significant improvement in sound fidelity over the (admittedly outdated) Node. And then the intermittent audio drop-outs started. By this I don’t mean the sort of drop-outs you get with a loose cable – we’re talking a small fraction of a second, at regular intervals about every 10 seconds and just enough to be @#!?ing irritating. Sometimes the issue starts immediately, other times it can take an hour or more to raise its ugly head. For the record, the signal chain is: 1. Samsung TV using Spotify or the Plex app from a Synology NAS Have you consider2. Optical out from the TV’s One Connect box to a Geshelli J2 DAC 3. Analogue out (stereo RCA) to amplifier and speakers I’ve already done a fair bit of research on the issue. This includes testing and ruling out problems with the optical cable and connections. The audio always plays fine through the TV speakers (no issues with Internet) and occurs with both Spotify and Plex. I’ve also changed the TV optical audio out settings to PCM (thanks also to the advice on this in a different thread). No dice … The leading suspect now is that jitter from the optical out is creating problems for the DAC. Several Internet sources (mostly Reddit) have also flagged this issue with TV optical outs. Curiously, some posters say they have fixed the issue by changing the jitter settings on their DAC (not a setting I have available on the Geshelli) and that older DACs often work fine, it’s just newer ESS chip DACs that have issues. I also contacted Geshelli. They said, yes, they had heard of the issue (mostly with Apple TV) and suggested I try an HDMI audio extractor. So, it looks like free fixes are off the table and I’m now just hoping to go down as few wrong rabbit holes as possible. The main questions I have for the StereoNET brainstrust are: 1. Has anyone else tried an HDMI audio extractor for this, and did it work? 2. Can anyone recommend a HDMI audio extractor, especially one that hopefully doesn’t degrade sound quality. 3. Is there any dejitter product I could use through optical? 4. Any further first-hand advice on DACs that have overcome this issue also welcome. (Apologies for the long post – I wanted to share the experience in case it helps future members). Thanks! @Tone Malone Are you dead set on using the TV for quality music listening? I would view this as a significant step back in playback quality [especially vs the Node], but I understand the appeal of a minimalist low cost approach. At this price point, have you considered a SBC [RPI4 as an example] running say Ropieee, which supports Spotify connect?? Your phone/tablet would then serve music, via the Ropieee Connect end point, using the native app and Spotify connect. Software to install on a raspberry pi4. https://ropieee.org/xl/ Connect via USB to your DAC, or even use a Spdif/Toslink HAT. Cheap, easy, and great sounding solution. The WIM streamer could be another good option, but this seems like a side step... rather than improvement. Edited May 16, 2024 by Grizaudio 1
Grizaudio Posted May 16, 2024 Posted May 16, 2024 8 hours ago, Tone Malone said: Is there any dejitter product I could use through optical? https://wyred4sound.com/products/remedy-reclocker IMHO you are spending money in the wrong areas with this, but it does what you ask. I had one of these years ago.... they go for about $200 second hand. I didn't like it, but they received much praise from the internet paid for comment folk. Personally, I would stick your BS Node back in chain, or use a basic SBC, and run Spotify Connect.... if you are looking for simple, cheap, and great sounding. If you are looking to upgrade quality rather than simplify signal chain, definitely look to upgrade from the node. @Snoopy8 will have many good recommendations. 1
Tone Malone Posted May 16, 2024 Author Posted May 16, 2024 Thanks for the advice @Grizaudio. I had completely forgotten about the W4S Remedy Reclocker (although I remember being sceptical about it ). Did you dislike it because it coloured the sound, or just because it made no improvement in your system? It's probably worth providing a bit more context on why I'm going down this path. A few years ago I rediscovered the tangible joy of playing physical media, and vinyl is currently the format I use most for more serious listening. There's always that part of me that will want to improve the sound quality of my streaming - but being realistic, streaming is more for convenience at the moment. My stereo system is also in our family's main (fairly compact) living room, which of course brings broader considerations into play. My family is really enjoying the simplicity of streaming through the TV. They can just use the TV remote for the music apps; the Plex app has a "dark mode" so the TV is less intrusive once music selections are made; and they can also have the family photos come up while music is playing. So, it's not exactly the sort of set-up you'll see in the pages of Stereophile, but hopefully that helps to explain my current approach. 1
Grizaudio Posted May 17, 2024 Posted May 17, 2024 (edited) Plenty about TV's having similar issues online. You could try something like this https://www.amazon.com.au/Tendak-Optical-Extractor-Converter-Splitter/dp/B017B6WFP8 Goodluck. Edited May 17, 2024 by Grizaudio
Tone Malone Posted August 11, 2024 Author Posted August 11, 2024 I’m happy to report that, as best I can tell, this problem has been resolved! After exhausting the least expensive remedies, I bought an SMSL SU-1 DAC (which uses an AKM AK 4493S chip) to replace the Geshelli J2 DAC (Sabre ES9026PRO chip) in my set-up. I’ve now played multiple sources through the Samsung TV optical out for several hours, and the audio drop-outs have ceased. I’m going to document my findings here, hopefully to help others who may experience the same issue. Background There are several reports of TV optical outputs carrying a lot of jitter and causing issues down the chain. As a Samsung TV owner the source I found most useful was here: https://eu.community.samsung.com/t5/tv/intermittent-audio-cutting-out-with-optical-toslink-the-frame/td-p/1448037/page/1. In a nutshell - the jitter from optical out exceeds what is accepted by many DACs that use Sabre ESS chips, causing brief drop-outs. The price and “quality” of the DAC/amplifier has little to do with it. Not surprisingly, it also occurs frequently in amplifiers that use the ESS chips for digital to analogue conversion. One user also shared an audio file of what they were experiencing, which gives you an idea of the very short nature of the audio drop-outs: https://www.dropbox.com/s/w3ddh4fqwvgfxw7/SamsungFrame2021_clipping_HDMIarc.mp3?dl=0 While Samsung (and its One Connect box) is a major culprit, LG and other TV brands and devices such as Apple TV can also cause issues At least with the Samsung, switching from optical to other outputs (HDMI/eARC, USB) doesn’t seem to be a reliable fix, as those outputs also have excessive jitter (I also tried an inexpensive HDML extractor which the TV simply didn't recognise). Likewise, a few people reported trying various digital filters and purifiers (eg, by iFi), but without success. I would be curious to know whether the now-discontinued Wyred4Sound Remedy Reclocker has ever resolved this issue, as surely this would go a long way to proving or disproving its value, but none came up while I was exploring solutions and at $200+ second hand, it seemed like a gamble. In terms of possible solutions: DACs that use the AKM chip seem to be okay handling the signal. These chips became unavailable a couple of years ago following a factory fire, but are now back in production again. DACs with Texas Instruments/Burr Brown chips also appear to be okay but I had less to go on with this. I didn’t read anything to determine whether DACs using other approaches (eg, R-2R resistor ladder) had issues. Some DACs with ESS chips have settings to accept greater jitter - I believe this is a DPLL (Digital Phase Locked Loop) setting. It’s worth checking before changing DACs. Some well-respected audio manufacturers have released software updates to get around this issue. These include Arcam, Marantz, Quad and Cambridge Audio. Likewise, it’s worth checking with the manufacturer to see if they can help. Other useful links include: https://www.reddit.com/r/hometheater/comments/iuecye/have_you_experienced_audio_dropouts_from_the/ https://www.reddit.com/r/BudgetAudiophile/comments/18er605/miniature_ampdac_that_does_not_use_ess_sabre_chip/ As an aside, it’s really disappointing from the various forums to see how Samsung have (mis)handled this issue. One user said they contacted Samsung and was told their amplifier wasn’t a “compatible” device … and when they asked what was compatible, they were told the Samsung soundbar. I get it – hifi enthusiasts aren’t a large target audience – but surely it can’t cost much to reduce jitter from digital outputs to a decent level. The main discussion thread I referenced above refers to a 2019 model TV. It’s not like they haven’t heard about the issue or had time to address it. Anyway, take a deep breath and move on, water under the bridge and all that … Decision time I chose the SMSL SU-1 ($119) because it was well-reviewed and used the same AKM chip as the Topping 30ii ($239), which users said handled the jitter from the Samsung. Frankly I didn’t want to invest much as I wasn’t sure it would work and the weakest link in the chain will still be the optical output. A review of the SMSL SU-1 I can suggest is here: https://youtu.be/dQtuz5JjNYY?si=9sOjnxh2FEg7Fmxv Thankfully, it seems to have done the trick. While the output level of the SU-1 is lower than I’d like, the sound quality is clean and neutral. I haven’t done enough critical listening to comment further, and as already cited, I’m using streaming for convenience right now with vinyl and CD being my higher quality media. 1
cassmobian Posted September 20, 2024 Posted September 20, 2024 Thanks for sharing your detailed experience Tone Malone. It will help me tackle adding Digital to my current setup. I've just ordered a new TV to replace my ~15 year old Sony which still has RCA outs. 1
Tone Malone Posted September 21, 2024 Author Posted September 21, 2024 21 hours ago, cassmobian said: Thanks for sharing your detailed experience Tone Malone. It will help me tackle adding Digital to my current setup. I've just ordered a new TV to replace my ~15 year old Sony which still has RCA outs Good luck @cassmobian! The above jitter issue aside, the biggest challenge I've had transitioning to newer TVs is their tendency to be too "smart" for their own good. I've just set up all my components again after upgrading our entertainment unit and, despite changing the TVs settings to what they were before, it now automatically mutes the TV speaker volume and switches to optical out when I use certain sources. Beforehand it was a more manual process (which I preferred). With RCA you know what's going to happen, with HDMI you get thrown curve balls from time to time. Nonetheless, the TV's apps and a lot of the smarts are great to use ... and yep, the audio dropouts are still gone.
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