B&C DCX464 Coaxial, LeCleac'h Azura horn and Dual 18" Speakerbuild

[ENIGMA]

18 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said:

I would not do this for the BC 464 driver ... as the horn will be too low Hz load for the driver.

There are few drivers with much lower HZ than the one you have now. <shrug>

 

 

Anyways, you should ask Martin about it.  (He has already said the 340 horn for that compression driver)

 

I also agree and Martin has tried and tested many designs. 

 

With doing your own horn build, each design style has its own "quirks" parameters to follow - doesn't matter if its a back loaded horn or  front loaded, square, round, conical or oval . I found that instead of trying to reinvent the wheel its best to identify exactly what you're trying to achieve in the end, find a good design that meets the goal and then make it work properly by sticking with the tried and tested parts its supposed to have that are known to work. 

 

Its fine to experiment, by al means go for it but in my book refinement and quality of a good tested design is the way to go - especially when you don't have a whole design and engineering facility at your fingertips.

 

I followed the Avantgarde Trio as my inspiration with the recommended Trio Fane driver upgrade, a Lansche incorporation of damping and components. If i am to build another horn i actually have all the components for a Klipsh K horn or if i really wanted to pick one of the best known horns to rival the best current offerings it would be a Western Electric horn.

 

At the end of the day - the best sounding horns have already been invented. 

 

 

[playdough]

On 18/05/2024 at 7:27 AM, playdough said:

Martin and I are into the Trade Secret bits of the job,,,,,,,the profile of the LeCheac'h and the throat extension in design.

We are well onto that @davewantsmoore

 

1 hour ago, davewantsmoore said:

as the horn will be too low Hz load for the driver

Interesting statement that, with regard to knowing how, HF as in 3K and above will radiate/propagate from the horn, that and the 300 Hz to 3K driver,,,,

Looking at the data from B&C impedance through what the loading and FR shows,,,,

Between designers ATM. 

 

Thanks for the information provided.

[playdough]

1 hour ago, ENIGMA said:

At the end of the day - the best sounding horns have already been invented. 

Correct

1 hour ago, ENIGMA said:

With doing your own horn build, each design style has its own "quirks" parameters to follow - doesn't matter if its a back loaded horn or  front loaded, square, round, conical or oval . I found that instead of trying to reinvent the wheel its best to identify exactly what you're trying to achieve in the end

Correct

1 hour ago, ENIGMA said:

in my book refinement and quality of a good tested design is the way to go

Also correct however I've the opportunity to do something slightly different, with a coaxial CD, a rare thing there isn't much written about really.

I'll run with that for now, still in design but the AH-204 is the likely candidate.

A simulator, with the small parameters and horn profile will provide answers.

1 hour ago, ENIGMA said:

followed the Avantgarde Trio as my inspiration with the recommended Trio Fane driver upgrade, a Lansche incorporation of damping and components. If i am to build another horn i actually have all the components for a Klipsh K horn or if i really wanted to pick one of the best known horns to rival the best current offerings it would be a Western Electric horn.

Magnificent thing although I've no room for that sort of thing preferring point source and direct radiator <300Hz .

It's a different journey and yet another approach, never seen by me in HiFI although I bet someone has done it already

[ENIGMA]

Looking forward to reading more and kudos to you for your approach.

 

At the end of the day, the the best sounding horns have already been invented but it doesn't mean the best one exists yet.

Edited May 20 by ENIGMA

[playdough]

12 minutes ago, ENIGMA said:

Looking forward to reading more and kudos to you for your approach

We, as in others involved and I will give it a good crack, this thread might go on for a while.

What @davewantsmoore mentioned is not that much of a "thing" really, on finer study. THere are outcomes,,,,,,

I'll go into that later

Pleasure to read your post, thanks

 

playdough 

[davewantsmoore]

2 hours ago, playdough said:

Interesting statement that

The correct horn for a driver will be a specific size ... larger or small, will not form the right acoustic load.

 

1 hour ago, playdough said:

AH-204 is the likely candidate

A 204Hz horn is way to big for this driver.

 

1 hour ago, playdough said:

A simulator, with the small parameters and horn profile will provide answers.

Yep.

I haven't done so, but it will be waaaay off.

Even a 340Hz horn, about as big as it will want.

 

1 hour ago, playdough said:

What @davewantsmoore mentioned is not that much of a "thing" really, on finer study. THere are outcomes,,,,,,

You mean using an ~200Hz horn, for the 646 driver?  With its ~300Hz reactance?  (Just so I'm clear we're talking about the same thing....)

Edited May 20 by davewantsmoore

[playdough]

14 hours ago, davewantsmoore said:

A 204Hz horn is way to big for this driver.

In this case @davewantsmoore I can say you are not correct. There may well be some technicality that your studies or actual build experience  say "is wrong" however you have provided no advice as to why, or a simulation, or any factual information, Link,  or encouragement, so no, not this time.

 

Even though you appear to bring a God like status to this Forum with the "badge, million posts and advice provided in thousands of situations" that and the fact everyone looks up to you.

 

May I attempt to teach you something about "speaker systems" from my experience with many systems I have built and delivered

 

ALL Speaker systems are in some way a compromise PERIOD.

 

Extract from some correspondence, some sauce if you will, from a fellow Artisan in Commission......

 

 Hi playdough

, I think you have that exactly right.  I'm not sure how the HF compares with the same driver in a smaller higher cut off horn, it's apples and oranges as the HF horn sounds hotter  as it lacks the bass and it becomes all about hte xo and EQ.   I have always used a separate HF horn / driver to get the balance right.  

 

 The big mouth does control directivity to a lower F and that's just what you want for imaging and depth.   Constant dispersion for venues is quite another thing.  I angle the JMLC horns in and nobody could say they are beamy.  The image parallax moves with you.

 

end saucy bit.

 

My connection to the way this system will work more heightened and studied than yours ATM, my money is where my mouth is, I look to the positives of the Compromise, rather than the negatives in search of something simply "better in my own mind"

 

In the past, my last experiment with the large porters, the Fridge boxes as you so aptly nic named and suggested they were wrong also, well,,,,,,,,Dave, they are in fact the most amazing dynamic, accurate, tone correct wide ranging and efficient 12Hz to 300Hz speaker system I personally have ever witnessed, had the pleasure to measure and hear in action, despite all negativity. 

 

This thread is about the positive aspects of a speaker build

If you have a concern, amaze us with 

1, fact

2, simulation

3 reference from your or anothers build

I look up to you Mate, show me why I do.

 

playdough

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 20 by playdough

[playdough]

mmm, yea, nice

800mm Azura 204, for 8" with throat adaptor down to 1.4",,,,,,,,,,,,,flexable design, future proof, easier to ship

[ENIGMA]

1 hour ago, playdough said:

mmm, yea, nice

800mm Azura 204, for 8" with throat adaptor down to 1.4",,,,,,,,,,,,,flexable design, future proof, easier to ship

How do you plan to dampen the horn?

[La scala]

2 hours ago, playdough said:

In this case @davewantsmoore I can say you are not correct. There may well be some technicality that your studies or actual build experience  say "is wrong" however you have provided no advice as to why, or a simulation, or any factual information, Link,  or encouragement, so no, not this time.

 

Even though you appear to bring a God like status to this Forum with the "badge, million posts and advice provided in thousands of situations" that and the fact everyone looks up to you.

 

May I attempt to teach you something about "speaker systems" from my experience with many systems I have built and delivered

 

ALL Speaker systems are in some way a compromise PERIOD.

 

Extract from some correspondence, some sauce if you will, from a fellow Artisan in Commission......

 

 Hi playdough

, I think you have that exactly right.  I'm not sure how the HF compares with the same driver in a smaller higher cut off horn, it's apples and oranges as the HF horn sounds hotter  as it lacks the bass and it becomes all about hte xo and EQ.   I have always used a separate HF horn / driver to get the balance right.  

 

 The big mouth does control directivity to a lower F and that's just what you want for imaging and depth.   Constant dispersion for venues is quite another thing.  I angle the JMLC horns in and nobody could say they are beamy.  The image parallax moves with you.

 

end saucy bit.

 

My connection to the way this system will work more heightened and studied than yours ATM, my money is where my mouth is, I look to the positives of the Compromise, rather than the negatives in search of something simply "better in my own mind"

 

In the past, my last experiment with the large porters, the Fridge boxes as you so aptly nic named and suggested they were wrong also, well,,,,,,,,Dave, they are in fact the most amazing dynamic, accurate, tone correct wide ranging and efficient 12Hz to 300Hz speaker system I personally have ever witnessed, had the pleasure to measure and hear in action, despite all negativity. 

 

This thread is about the positive aspects of a speaker build

If you have a concern, amaze us with 

1, fact

2, simulation

3 reference from your or anothers build

I look up to you Mate, show me why I do.

 

playdough

 

 

 

 

 

 

I am with Dave , as you wish to optimise the BnC mid to optimally impedence load with correct one wavelenghth to lowest freq. horn ...however then compromise the HF section of your BnC .

 

Look at the graph , the BnC is low on SPL till 450hz. 

Sure you can suck the guts out of it to flatten the response with DSP , but...

 

Personally jerked around with a BnC DCM50 in various horns from 300hz up , the mother driver never like much under 500hz at all and suspect yours possibly be likewise.

 

Personally think coaxials  behave more on waveguides like the Flappers rather than a single dedicated horn to do both mids and highs , time will tell.

 

I dont wish to deter your quest as thats all part of the fun , so keep at it and go hard.

 

[playdough]

2 hours ago, ENIGMA said:

How do you plan to dampen the horn?

Interesting.

As the horn will be in 2 parts, some sort of metallic or timber bracket will be fashioned clamped or bolted into (the horn flanges ) to facilitate a stand that is not easy to fall over, damping that from the bass cab will be done as per the PSE144 with Sorbothane , a sticky squishy rubber designed to absorb vibration. I've proven the effectiveness of this with before and after 2nd, 3rd order harmonic damping outcomes, measurements in REW/UMIK.

As for the horn resonating from the back face away from the listener, I'll cross that bridge when it comes, however Martin's Azura Horns generally are very heavy and of such weight and strength tas to minimise that issue. 

I generally listen in the First Watt, or, not that loud, so, yea, it's no rock concert ad resonation won't be too much of a problem.

Edited May 21 by playdough

[playdough]

2 minutes ago, La scala said:

the mother driver never like much under 500hz at all and suspect yours possibly be likewise.

This B&C is a coaxial designed to load a horn to 300Hz, so again, no, not what Martin and I are discussing.

Again also, no actual sim or actual testing with the Coax, no cigar.

Just because someone says it's wrong, doesn't mean it is wrong, without jadablabla read above.

Try to think of it as, a smaller horn inside a larger horn with the same profile, I might end up with a narrowing propagation pattern above 3Khz but otherwise the profile generated for the job is fine.

I am fine with this, so is the Artisan Commissioned.

Low frequencies, long and large aperture high frequencies early throat and phase plug generated.

[playdough]

31 minutes ago, La scala said:

Look at the graph , the BnC is low on SPL till 450hz. 

Sure you can suck the guts out of it to flatten the response with DSP , but..

Graph ? Yes, these should be read together. THe Horn loading used should also be seen.

 

There are quite a few words I could write about these, in relation the Azura 204.

We will get there

At the end of the day I could use this horn, however it fails to look "feminine" and is "ugly" not to my eyes, but to Francesca, maybe I could introduce her, the rather animated, Italian Lady,,,,,,,,,,,,,who comes first and who the speakers will be named after ....

 

 

[ENIGMA]

1 hour ago, playdough said:

Interesting.

As the horn will be in 2 parts, some sort of metallic or timber bracket will be fashioned clamped or bolted into (the horn flanges ) to facilitate a stand that is not easy to fall over, damping that from the bass cab will be done as per the PSE144 with Sorbothane , a sticky squishy rubber designed to absorb vibration. I've proven the effectiveness of this with before and after 2nd, 3rd order harmonic damping outcomes, measurements in REW/UMIK.

As for the horn resonating from the back face away from the listener, I'll cross that bridge when it comes, however Martin's Azura Horns generally are very heavy and of such weight and strength tas to minimise that issue. 

I generally listen in the First Watt, or, not that loud, so, yea, it's no rock concert ad resonation won't be too much of a problem.

If you look back at the picture of my horn i posted earlier in this thread you'll see I have Martin's 160 horn which is almost the same as the horn you are getting apart from the throat dimensions but certainly the same in construction. Yes, Martin makes a really good solid/strong horn but it needs damping as part of the process in our DIY construction. I created an outer cylinder and filled it with sand, you tap the horn ant its like it was made of concrete, Others put a sound deadener on the back surface, - i've even seen bean bags used, either way it will need damping and you will see when you tap it with your knuckle.  This is a factor that will come up in your measurements even though it may not seem that prominent or likely.

[playdough]

@ENIGMA

Brilliant.

Something to well and truly consider.

1 hour ago, ENIGMA said:

I created an outer cylinder and filled it with sand, you tap the horn ant its like it was made of concrete

I would really like some more information on this  

A photo,,,,, pls.

[playdough]

3 hours ago, La scala said:

, the BnC is low on SPL till 450hz. 

Sure you can suck the guts out of it to flatten the response with DSP , but...

Martin and I have been discussing a passive,,,,,,,,,,,,,  2 way filter.....but that is a while off, I do still have the shoebox of Inductors, caps and resistors, need to do actual measurements under load across the FR and both drivers of the Coaxial CD, in horn, to get it somewhere, actual impedance at xo ,fr, ect, ,,,,,,, TBA

Edited May 21 by playdough

[playdough]

Azura Horn AH-204

single piece integrated with 2" throat

[playdough]

4 hours ago, La scala said:

Sure you can suck the guts out of it to flatten the response with DSP

Not really

[ENIGMA]

3 hours ago, playdough said:

@ENIGMA

Brilliant.

Something to well and truly consider.

I would really like some more information on this  

A photo,,,,, pls.

 

Inner structure that houses the Fane driver, there is a cylinder on the outside and the void is full of dry sand and/or garnet. I took/made this 12 years ago. As you can see i only go up to half of the horn. The round flange the driver bolts to (in the box) is the large round circle you see the box is attached to and same concept as you using the small flange on your throat to bolt the compression driver. This wooden frame was resigned with fiberglass on to the horn as was the throat on the flange. The diameter of the cylinder is approx 500mm. The sand also is around the box section, what is missing in this photo is the cylinder, rear flange and holes in the frame I drilled for the sand to fill into all the chambers.

 

Edited May 21 by ENIGMA

[playdough]

Nice to watch the sun come up with a steamy hot long black coffee

[playdough]

PartsExpress.com has been corrupted

 

A bogus tracking number has been issued to me with a delivery completed notice, for the backordered second coax, either in error or fraudulently.

THey appear to belligerently stick to their delivery notice not admitting a mistake on their behalf, a double down in other words and in the wrong. Seems to be a new trend.  

A case has been opened and a Statutory Declaration has been filed at EBay's request as they have reviewed the fact I ordered 2, coax drivers and paid for the order, then only received 1 , with the second on backorder, that and the fact Parts Express has stock of 1 driver AND sent a bogus tracking notification of delivery.

 

Either way I sort of have to have a second unit to complete the job.

No stress however I recommend Forum Members be diligent about the use of PartsExpress.com and have their order/part protected by either EBay or a third party.

 

Hs is why  will never build another speaker system ever again, it's a little stressful.

 

Edited May 21 by playdough

[playdough]

Theory on the 300Hz to 20Khz Coaxial Point Source Constant directivity Azura 

Warning, long boring post ramblings of a speaker builder, bedtime reading. 

 

It may well be the case it's already mentioned in the above, and the clever/experienced may have already put 2 and 2 together, you know who you are.

Theory behind this design has come about after a 20 year long journey with a number of stereo loudspeaker system builds, fairly unabated work with many types of Loudspeakers, in HiFI and Pro Audio, at hobby level.

Stuck to the principals, mathematics and fundamentals the whole way using calculations, simulators, emulators, mathematics and final measurements.

 

This blurb directly relates to the sweet spot of the seated position the subjective listener inhabits and the actual propagation of directional frequencies across the audible range.

The stereo image 3D window we diligently hear into, the image created, for the listener by the Artist, Director and Producer of the media.

 

A nice change for me being nothing to do with omnidirectional  bass as I've cracked that nut, peeled that onion to its core and been inside and outside of that aspect in speaker design and making of bass enclosures all types fairly well. That as well as acoustics the open field and in room as well as in room acoustic treating solutions with the measurements associated. That's a whole story in its own right.

 

 

That was playdough's first post on StereoNet. There is a fairly vast amount of reading (babbling) here, another bed time read  but being a fairly new Member in this Forum (a little over a year) this might give some an idea of what I can get up to, when the stars align and I have 2 things mainly, money and time. I am a Tradesman, in my other "life" so no Pro Speaker builder just an enthusiast who has take the time to learn a bit through the hard school of many mistakes.

 

My favourite types of speakers are in sort of an order, I do like Electrostatics, they are beautiful, however this room does not lend its self at all to a Bi Polar speaker of any type.

 

1, Electrostatics, detail and accuracy of soundstage. Just amazing, tone exact, short to no diaphragm decay time or no (Mms) acoustic drive element driver weight. This aids dynamic ability in many subtle ways over direct radiators.

Detractions, a very narrow window of focus on the soundstage from the LP (listening position) A little narrow for me. Overall actual speaker SPL capability, yea, a full range Electro is not that loud, mine peaked at 90dB, before weird things happened. I don't really love the look, or the price of a lovely pair.

Take away, detailed micro dynamics and to a lesser extent a narrowing radiation pattern, into the highest frequencies, typical BiPolar function Little off axis room interaction.

 

2, Di Pole Speakers, Quite like these. Immediate quick acting dynamics and also entertaining to listen to,particularly mid to upper bass.

To me best with an open backed ribbon driver for a real bi polar experience.

Detractions, looks are a little "skeletal" if that's a thing, special drivers, difficulty in construction and tuning, especially heading into the lower octaves. Need room behind, around them in order to work really well.

Typical BiPolar, little interaction with the room although sometimes the front wall behind the speakers can be audible, its reflection in delay to the direct radiation.

Take aways, nice if done properly, but easily made into duds with non compliant drivers, crossover and filtering is hard to make and they are not that efficient.

3, Horns, Dynamics in particular as a result of high efficiency, constant directivity. Very, very highly efficient, with the sound (beyond soundstage LP), seemingly floating around and getting into every corner of the house and outside. 

Detractions, Tweaky, hard to tune out any anomaly, such as shrillness, or honk and can, although of great tone character have some response  detraction or be fatiguing to listen to.  

Take aways, Dynamics, constant directivity, no interaction in room, or minimal off the rear wall, with speakers toed in. 

 

Part 1, TBC

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

  

Edited May 23 by playdough

[playdough]

21 hours ago, ENIGMA said:

 

Inner structure that houses the Fane driver, there is a cylinder on the outside and the void is full of dry sand and/or garnet. I took/made this 12 years ago. As you can see i only go up to half of the horn. The round flange the driver bolts to (in the box) is the large round circle you see the box is attached to and same concept as you using the small flange on your throat to bolt the compression driver. This wooden frame was resigned with fiberglass on to the horn as was the throat on the flange. The diameter of the cylinder is approx 500mm. The sand also is around the box section, what is missing in this photo is the cylinder, rear flange and holes in the frame I drilled for the sand to fill into all the chambers.

 

That's excellent thanks, good idea.

I'll be thinking about that and how to make it more compact and be a bolt on thing.

 

playdough

[La scala]

Sorry to hear about your second driver blunder , sure hope assitance comes your way to sort it out quick smart for you.

Not much seem to function out there of late in general.

I have one question thats troubling me in regards to which cucumber suggested the driver will suit a 300hz baseline ?

Keep up the good work 

[davewantsmoore]

On 21/5/2024 at 8:19 AM, playdough said:

In this case @davewantsmoore I can say you are not correct. There may well be some technicality that your studies or actual build experience  say "is wrong" however you have provided no advice as to why, or a simulation, or any factual information, Link,  or encouragement, so no, not this time.

I didn't think I needed to explain why....  as it fairly basic "horn theory".

A 200Hz horn, which is getting close to a whole octave lower than a 340Hz horn, that Martin recommended, and coincidentally a similar frequency to the one B&C designed for it (see test bench in audio express magazine) ... won't supply the right acoustic load to the driver, with it's lowest (free air) impedance peak at ~300Hz.

 

On 21/5/2024 at 8:19 AM, playdough said:

This thread is about the positive aspects of a speaker build

If you have a concern, amaze us with 

Chill out man.

 

I just told you not to use a 200Hz horn with this compression driver.

 

If you want to know why, then feel free to ask.... or ask someone else, if you have no interest in hearing it from me.