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Should consumers demand more detailed validation data?


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I came across this speaker, and some big claims have been made on the manufacturers website... one stands out; 

"unparalleled in performance, Hyphn is the result of an intense collaboration between our designers and engineers, who set out to build the best loudspeaker anyone has ever heard."    

https://www.monitoraudio.com/en/product-ranges/hyphn/hyphn/

 

When parting with $135k big ones, is it unreasonable to expect a more detailed measured performance to validate claims? I.e. a Klippel data set? 

In fact should a Klippel data set be the minimum performance data consumers should ask for when buying speakers? 

 

An example of Klippel data is here, for those not familiar: https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/loudspeakers/kef_blade2_meta/

 

With no Spinorama, no sound power, no estimated in room response, no directivity in vertical/horizontal, no compression v's SPL data [response linearity], no Harmonic Distortion data, is supplied..

How does any consumer objectively validate MA's claims [or those made by the reviewers] of "unparalleled in performance".  If we had the data we would know.?!

 

Now comes my question, as consumers should we be demanding better measured performance data to validate speaker performance? 

Should a Klippel data set be the minimum specs we should demand? 

 

At least pro companies like Genelec attempt to provide directivity performance data, which is a step in the right direction.  

https://www.genelec.com/8381a#section-technical-specifications

 

Thoughts? 

Edited by Grizaudio
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24 minutes ago, Grizaudio said:

Now comes my question, as consumers should we be demanding better measured performance data to validate speaker performance? 

Nah, then you'd risk jeopardising a whole industry of other audiophile bits and bobs, if the idea caught on... 😆

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26 minutes ago, muon* said:

Change the things you can, but recognise and accept when it is something you can not change.

Desiderata?

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This kind of marketing pervades endless numbers of products and services, has done for near a century if not longer.

 

Good luck changing that.

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2 minutes ago, muon* said:

Good luck changing that.

 

True, I don't disagree...... but maybe things could improve? We already see this via independent review/measurement testing. 

A set of more than basic spec's which actually provide meaningful performance data for consumers. 

 

One would assume a company like MA would be using Klippel measurements to develop and fine tune their products.... 

Not a difficult task to make the final data available for consumers. 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Grizaudio said:

Thoughts? 


KEF do impress with their data, which can be viewed here.


https://images.salsify.com/image/upload/s--7J5Tne26--/89223f28d213a5abfbad9a9a7ba24e7be864c8cf.pdf


If you have basic understanding or better of this topic, then the best way to obtain change is with your wallet, but you probably already are.

Edited by Satanica
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9 hours ago, bob_m_54 said:

Desiderata?

The Serenity Pray?!?

...God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change; courage to change the things I can; and wisdom to know the difference...:hyper:

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10 hours ago, Satanica said:


KEF do impress with their data, which can be viewed here.


https://images.salsify.com/image/upload/s--7J5Tne26--/89223f28d213a5abfbad9a9a7ba24e7be864c8cf.pdf


If you have basic understanding or better of this topic, then the best way to obtain change is with your wallet, but you probably already are.

 

This whitepaper is a really good example of the detail which consumers should be demanding as a baseline. 

At least THD and directivity are provided. 

image.png.defe500fe8435b38130665b69218872b.png

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, BLAH BLAH said:

The Serenity Pray?!?

...God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change; courage to change the things I can; and wisdom to know the difference...:hyper:

 

Possibly, but maybe as consumer technical understanding improves, it might instigate a change in the type & depth of technical data being demanded and supplied overtime to consumers. 

I feel we have seen a massive change already with ASR and Erin providing independent Klippel data for speakers, which in my opinion is extremely helpful for consumers who understand the data.  

I personally used Erin's Klippel data, to make my speaker purchase. 

 

Additionally, the absence of technical validation within subjective reviews, makes me highly sceptical of any article, award, or review.

It's easy (rightly or wrongly) to immediately dismiss these articles and awards as creative business writing pieces, the outcome of business arrangements and exchanges.  

image.png.d97c469552ee8d2084ab281e88cb75ec.png

 

Perhaps independent technical measurements from the likes of ASR and Erin is all we can hope for, but my argument is if you are parting with considerable money say $10k+ on a pair of speakers, the speaker performance should be validated by meaningful performance data. Not meaningless frequency +/- data, which tells you nothing about how that speaker will perform in room.  

 

As I highlighted in a previous email, an industry doing this much better is the pro audio world.

Typically manufacturers provide more meaningful data, like response processed and un-processed, phase linearity, beamwidth/directivity, 6db/12db crest factors, and impedance plots for all speakers.  

 

As a consumer I think we should be demanding more detailed performance validation from our speaker manufacturers. 

A Klippel data set should be the baseline standard, and isn't difficult for big names to provide.  

 

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Just remember, there are people who actively avoid measurements, or ignore them if they conflict with something they believe, or wish to believe.  Manufacturers who do not supply data, still have a market.

 

With examples like in your OP,  I just treat it as utter BS and go from there, so I am not part of that market (cost aside).

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, aussievintage said:

Just remember, there are people who actively avoid measurements, or ignore them if they conflict with something they believe, or wish to believe.  Manufacturers who do not supply data, still have a market.

 

With examples like in your OP,  I just treat it as utter BS and go from there, so I am not part of that market (cost aside).

 

For sure, 100%, but for a transducer measurements are extremely important as they validate signal reproduction accuracy [which is the goal right?]. 

From there, consumers can listen subjectively and make choices. 

Edited by Grizaudio
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I support Grizaudio's argument that over time consumers would start to rely on accurate measurements as a baseline in their selection process. All the magical thinking and fantasy-level expectation built up by industry and more so industry adjacent reviewers and youtube infomercials would at least find a robust counterpart.

The long term educational impact of not ignoring the data in speaker selection will be invaluable, and also improve product development and marketing.

Which other hi tech product at these cost prices can afford not to disclose its strengths and limits via a checkable data set? It's certainly noticeable that the higher the cost the more effusive and airy the praise while data unavailable.

 

(Horn speakers and multi hundred kilo units will not fit into a Klippel scenario.)

Edited by Steff
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3 minutes ago, Steff said:

All the magical thinking and fantasy-level expectation built up by industry and more so industry adjacent reviewers and youtube infomercials would at least find a robust counterpart.

 

So true. 

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There is a issue that I have with manufacturers data and white paper.   Never believe what they provide,  I usually wait for an independent body to clarify what they measured to what’s provided by the manufacturer.  There are many audio products that I’ve seen that show you what they have measured and what they used to measure as reference, when tested by and independent that’s not all the case,  plenty of examples I’ve seen throughout the years being here as a SNA member,  lots of talk on issues that people think resolve issues that really doesn’t,  most of the audiophile mantra comes from people making assumptions without any clarifications; usually solutions looking for a problem.    There are lots of individuals who are dedicated to the hobby with reference test equipment that I trust as they do not have a commercial financial influence to measurements and that where you should look if you want real data.  

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50 minutes ago, aussievintage said:

Just remember, there are people who actively avoid measurements, or ignore them if they conflict with something they believe, or wish to believe.  Manufacturers who do not supply data, still have a market.

 

With examples like in your OP,  I just treat it as utter BS and go from there, so I am not part of that market (cost aside).


I’ve actually been to a gathering where it’s all about the ears,  one gathering confirms the bias from then on I preferred what the data tells me.  

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All for speaker measurements, just like car perfomance  measurements etc.. For those not interested its easy enough to ignore.

 

One issue is the Klippel is mega expensive. I am not aware of a system in Australia. That means no Aussie made speaker has a full set of measurements. Eg. Kyron is $100k plus as well.

 

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4 hours ago, muon* said:

Even if exposed to measurements most people will go for what they like the sound of.

 

I can't see this changing.

 

And long may it be so (with speakers at least ). The only testing I would do for a megabucks speaker pair would be to insist on an in home trial. When spending $100K+, one can make that a condition of sale.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, muon* said:

Even if exposed to measurements most people will go for what they like the sound of.

 

I can't see this changing.

 

Of course, but at least you can easily disqualify product that doesn't meet the highest industry performance standards. 

I have no issue with anyone making subjective choices, I just think these decisions should be informed.  

 

I really only see benefits in manufacturers providing baseline Klippel data sets as an industry standard. 

 

Edited by Grizaudio
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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, rantan said:

 

And long may it be so (with speakers at least ). The only testing I would do for a megabucks speaker pair would be to insist on an in home trial. When spending $100K+, one can make that a condition of sale.

 

But would it not be highly valuable to have a set of data consistent across manufacturers? allowing informed subjective decisions to be made (whatever those preferences are?). 

 

If a speaker manufacturer is going to spout stuff like "the best speaker, unparalleled performance etc" I say prove it. Otherwise its a brand I wouldn't consider. 

Edited by Grizaudio
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37 minutes ago, AudioGeek said:

One issue is the Klippel is mega expensive

 

About $100k USD.

Is that expensive if you are charging considerable money for your product? There are obvious benefits including using the Klippel to develop/fine tune your speakers. 

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, rantan said:

No.

 

You don't believe reviews and awards are business agreements or paid commercials? or at best quid pro quo..... 

Edited by Grizaudio
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1 minute ago, rantan said:

 

And long may it be so (with speakers at least ). The only testing I would do for a megabucks speaker pair would be to insist on an in home trial. When spending $100K+, one can make that a condition of sale.

Lindz, I'd want a home demo if I was spending 15-20K. At 100k it's surely a given that you'll have the speaker at your place and in your system? Bit like a test drive of an expensive car like a P76 Targa Florio (haha) (insert your exxy car of choice)

 

2 minutes ago, Grizaudio said:

If a speaker manufacturer is going to spout stuff like "the best speaker, unparalleled performance etc" I say prove it. Otherwise its a brand I wouldn't consider. 

They nearly all say that Ant as you know and this is really such a silly silly hobby, we're all seduced at one time or another by bling, by measurements, by subjectivity, by blue lights, VU meters, timber, connects, and the list is endless.

Who doesn't have buyers regret and sellers remorse and we all have to wade through the spruikers of the latest and best gear at some stage on the journey.

 

Budget is everything at the end of the day though isn't it. You settle at your level and as for validation of a product...well you need to learn the language don't you of HiFi and if you don't then you(in my case) you come here and ask.

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