Another frustrating experience

[57John]

 

My favourite Audio Research Ref CD9 player, with dual tube input and output systems, is out of action.

 

How?

In the CD hub, the small part that the CD sits on and spins, a plastic piece, has failed, breaking into three neat pieces. I assume it's the life, heat and age of this plastic piece. It's more than 30 years old. But everything else works, and this is truly a golden-sounding machine, this CD payer.

 

So, I researched solutions. I ordered and fitted the premium replacement hub from Enco Systems in the USA. This 20-cm-sized piece of aluminium costs $150, including transport. 

Whoopee, it should play now.

No.

The CD now sits too close to the surface of the tray. Is this the reason it won't spin? Is it the little rubbers on the turntable, or something else?

 

I asked Enco Systems. He replies that you can a) buy the plastic piece instead of the aluminium one you purchased, but, sir, we have many satisfied customers, or b) send us the CD Pro2 loading and playing mechanism.

 

I paused that convo and approached my engineering tech in Philadelphia.

He says, it looks like the platter has been squashed, and you probably need a new disk CD Pro2 mechanism. That's two votes for that solution.

 

I recently sent another ARC amp to Philadelphia. That cost AUD$450 for transport, x2 if I wanted it returned. So whatever the cost of sending just the disk mechanism, repair, and return costs will be.

 

Hang on, what if I can buy a replacement CDPro2? I've been searching eBay and HiFI Shark, etc. There is not a lot around. Enco says they have cornered the market on these items. USD$475 for a refurbished mechanism.

 

Then there's the small complication. My CD9 player has been coated with an EMI/RFI paint treatment. It certainly coats the top surface of the disk mechanism and probably the PCB boards underneath. It is removable with acetone, but its presence can frustrate technicians who are not used to it. It is what it is. 

 

So what do you think I should do?

 

As I write this and study its mechanics further, I can see another explanation. The turntable is held up by springs, and these springs can lose their tension and cause the tt to drop below the tray. I can also see the tired rubber on the tt. This rubber has probably hardened with age and heat exposure. Solutions?

 

Is it within mine or a local Melbourne or Oz tech to fix? Refurbishment? No, not the rubbers; these mean a whole mechanism replacement, I guess. But the springs? Is it possible to do this locally? They may be removed, stretched, and returned to lift the table by 2-3mm.

 

Edited March 13, 2024 by 57John
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[klm]

Very easy fix, the turntable is only a pressure fit on the motor Spindle so can be levered up the required distance. Not uncommon to have the turntable pushed down when fitting new centre hubs.

[57John]

5 hours ago, klm said:

Very easy fix, the turntable is only a pressure fit on the motor Spindle so can be levered up the required distance. Not uncommon to have the turntable pushed down when fitting new centre hubs.

This sounds good. Can you tell me how I can lever it back up, and what is the ideal clearance? 
A mobile conversation would very helpful after business hours if that’s possible.

John

(phone number removed for privacy)

Edited March 14, 2024 by Marc
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[Guest Moon 600i V2]

A friend of mine had an Audio Aero with the same transport failure. He was able to buy an electronically-failed donor unit, in Toronto, just for the transport at $120.00 CDN and swap it out. I know what it is like to have a piece of equipment fail that still has value if it can be repaired. Good luck to you.

[57John]

21 hours ago, 57John said:

This sounds good. Can you tell me how I can lever it back up, and what is the ideal clearance? 
A mobile conversation would very helpful after business hours if that’s possible.

John

(phone number removed for privacy)

PM Sent.

[57John]

5 hours ago, Moon 600i V2 said:

A friend of mine had an Audio Aero with the same transport failure. He was able to buy an electronically-failed donor unit, in Toronto, just for the transport at $120.00 CDN and swap it out. I know what it is like to have a piece of equipment fail that still has value if it can be repaired. Good luck to you.

Thanks for your suggestion and support. I have searched on eBay but Enco systems seems to have mopped up the market.

Im hoping to have a word with @klm in due course to get some tips.

John

[bob_m_54]

The best way to remove the platter, or pull it up a bit, without damaging the motor is to use a hub puller. You will probably need to dismantle the mechanism to a degree to get enough access to use one though.

 

The Manual for the mechanism is here.

Philips CD Pro 2R (VAU1254)

 

You can make a puller from a piece of metal and a screw, like this.

I made one for when  I used to repair audio gear a while back. Made it from a piece of stainless steel. Tapped a threaded hole in the top and used a machine thread screw to suit. If you can slightly cup the end of the screw, it will work better, but if not, just make sure it's flat.

[Dr.Funk]

I am not sure of suitability of the units in this link, to your exact unit, take a look;

https://www.aliexpress.com/w/wholesale-CD%25252dPro2-.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.search.0

 

I recently had a chat with Bel Canto, who use the CD2 mechanism in their CD2 player (which I own).

 

I sent them the link and photo's, they assure me, via email, that the units for sale in this link are the real deal.

Hopefully another option. I would definitely create a puller and have a go myself first.

 

In case you do not have metal working skills, may I suggest the following option.

 

I would purchase a phenolic chopping board from Ikea, $5, and cut out a rectangle the width and length required, cut two more square pieces to form the feet (or more if the thickness of the board does not suit the clearance height you require).

Superglue the 'feet' to the main piece, drill a hole through the main piece, as shown in the previous metal diagram (bob-m-54 kindly provided), slightly smaller than your chosen screw. Then if you wind the screw through the phenolic piece it will cut its own thread into the plastic. You will  not need to exert a lot of pressure to depress the spindle. If, for some reason the pressure required does strip the created thread in the phenolic board, Bunnings sell small packs of thread inserts which could be inserted into the board, then the corresponding screw would travel through that insert. If you pm me I would be happy to help, I can even create that for you, if you give me some dimensions and pay the postage to send it to you.

Good luck

[57John]

Thanks @bob_m_54 and @Dr.Funk for your suggestions.

 

When I look at this photo of the current set-up, it shows me that the top of the hub is aligned with the top of the motor spindle, as is the collar of the tt. And the tt is flush to the surface of the tray per the next two photos.

 

 

 

I need to see where the need to lift the tt comes from. Nonetheless, I've video'd the free play in the tt that is present in the hardware suspension springs and posted a link to the video here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1G9D_s8zW-V3rwxza1OqO-p88-k3LtiQg/view?usp=drive_link.

 

Is it possible to stretch the springs so that some of this free play is used to raise the tt to the correct height?

 

I don't know what the correct height of the tt is meant to be in relation to the tray, is the tt meant to be flush or sit above the tray, and by how much? 2mm? 

 

If I look at the photo below from the ARC dbase, the tt seems to sit flush to the tray.

 

 

In plain words, where is the problem coming from here? Why is the cd sitting crookedly.

 

 

John

 

 

Edited March 15, 2024 by 57John
Photo update

[57John]

Is this cd positioning really the issue now.

When I reinstall the new aluminium hub and set it full on the collar, the cd sits evenly on the tt. But it doesn't spin after closing the lid.

 

 

 

[Dr.Funk]

Looking at my unit, the whole elongated platform is raised above the main body of the unit.

It is about 2-3mm above, I suspect it is the springs supporting the main unit that have compressed and dropped the whole assembly.

I am not at home for the next 5 hrs or so, I can photograph my unit when I get home if you like.

To be clear, the 2nd photo in your last post shows the full laser assembly, including the main spindle, sitting within the body of the unit. It is the whole assembly that needs to lift up to clear the main body surface. I am by no means an electrical engineer, so this is my own opinion based upon your photos and what I can see on my Bel Canto CD2 unit.

Cheers

Andy

[Dr.Funk]

Just looking at your original post, with the photo of the main unit assembly as your first photo. The screws at the bottom of the mounting posts are the adjustments for obtaining the leveling of the assembly. Perhaps you have over tightened these, causing the main assembly to be pulled down below the main body, causing the actual CD to ground itself on the surface of the main chassis??

[57John]

2 minutes ago, Dr.Funk said:

Looking at my unit, the whole elongated platform is raised above the main body of the unit.

It is about 2-3mm above, I suspect it is the springs supporting the main unit that have compressed and dropped the whole assembly.

I am not at home for the next 5 hrs or so, I can photograph my unit when I get home if you like.

To be clear, the 2nd photo in your last post shows the full laser assembly, including the main spindle, sitting within the body of the unit. It is the whole assembly that needs to lift up to clear the main body surface. I am by no means an electrical engineer, so this is my own opinion based upon your photos and what I can see on my Bel Canto CD2 unit.

Cheers

Andy

Yes Andy thanks for sharing. I'm wfh so able to respond.

The shot above of the ARC unit from their dbase shows a flush fit to the tray surface. So this remains an open issue, as does what triggers the tt to spin; I presumed it was the closing of the lid, but it may also have something to do with the CD being present (or not) and its positioning. My hands are up.

 

My experience of loading CDs onto the TT with the old plastic hub always required a firm press around the collar with several clicks as the disc slipped down the hub to lie flat on the tt and seat properly. Perhaps this was indicative of an issue with that plastic hub, that finally broke. But before it broke it was click once or twice, seated then played.

[57John]

4 minutes ago, Dr.Funk said:

Just looking at your original post, with the photo of the main unit assembly as your first photo. The screws at the bottom of the mounting posts are the adjustments for obtaining the leveling of the assembly. Perhaps you have over tightened these, causing the main assembly to be pulled down below the main body, causing the actual CD to ground itself on the surface of the main chassis??

I've never taken a screwdriver to this unit other than to remove the lid of the entire unit. Never touched inside at all beyond loading the tubes. That photo is from the internet.

[57John]

Well, thanks to all so far, but this remains unsolved. I've also reached out to AR company. Nothing new was presented there.

 

My current thinking is that this issue goes beyond the hub. It won't start with a CD inside, which is a power-on issue. If this is the case, I have three options. I can try diagnostics with some tutoring from my engineer in Philadelphia and save the cost of sending the unit to him. I can send it over and let him diagnose and fix it. I could also buy and install a refurbished disc player, as it is plug-and-play virtually.

 

I am still not happy yet. But I appreciate everyone who has offered their experience; it is much appreciated.

[Dr.Funk]

I am sorry that none of our suggestions are working out.

As your unit is a tray operation, where mine is not, it is my understanding that the drawer is the means for the cd to enter the unit and be placed in the position to be read by the laser.

So the central hub must lift upwards to raise the disc off of the tray, enough for it to spin freely. So I think you are on the right trail, it has to be a secondary power switch that is activated when the draw closes?

[muon*]

20 minutes ago, Dr.Funk said:

I am sorry that none of our suggestions are working out.

As your unit is a tray operation, where mine is not, it is my understanding that the drawer is the means for the cd to enter the unit and be placed in the position to be read by the laser.

So the central hub must lift upwards to raise the disc off of the tray, enough for it to spin freely. So I think you are on the right trail, it has to be a secondary power switch that is activated when the draw closes?

I think this is a top loader, not a tray loading type.

 

Edit: in one of his posts he did use the term "tray", but I don't believe it was meant as we might presume.

The pics show the sliding door open above the 2 Pro.

 

Edited March 17, 2024 by muon*

[Dr.Funk]

Oooh, it's a trapdoor like the colossal Sony SACD players.

[57John]

8 hours ago, muon* said:

I think this is a top loader, not a tray loading type.

 

Edit: in one of his posts he did use the term "tray", but I don't believe it was meant as we might presume.

The pics show the sliding door open above the 2 Pro.

 

Indeed, it is a top loader. In using tray, I was referring to the tray that sits above the disk motor assembly, rather than the traditional push out/in tray of a typical front loader. I understand any confusion. Wasn't sure what else to call it, tbh.

 

Apologies for any confusion there.

 

My Philly engineer notes that he can't test the disk mechanism on its own, which means a complete pack and send of the entire unit, tubes included, to him for service. Not in my budget horizon right now.

[57John]

[57John]

9 hours ago, Dr.Funk said:

I am sorry that none of our suggestions are working out.

As your unit is a tray operation, where mine is not, it is my understanding that the drawer is the means for the cd to enter the unit and be placed in the position to be read by the laser.

So the central hub must lift upwards to raise the disc off of the tray, enough for it to spin freely. So I think you are on the right trail, it has to be a secondary power switch that is activated when the draw closes?

This now appears to be the issue, and I worry that I'll spend $1K on a simple fix for said switch.

[muon*]

@rockeater

[57John]

I assume its nothing like this:

 

 

[rockeater]

5 hours ago, 57John said:

I assume its nothing like this:

This guy is a real pro.

I am sure all quality repairers do it all the time.

 

On 15/03/2024 at 6:24 AM, 57John said:

Can you tell me how I can lever it back up, and what is the ideal clearance? 

The CD should be around 0.7 - 0.9mm above the height of the laser head.

To lift a TT on its shaft, I use two scalpel blades, levering the TT from two sides. This is to avoid bending the motor's shaft and braking the TT if it is plastic (which most of them are).

In order to get a right height on next installation, place business card with a slot cut for the shaft and press.

Measure the card with a vernier to select one with the right thickness.

 

In general, it is unlikely for the TT to be too low, if the TT with leaded CD still spins, because it should still be well within laser's focus range.

Lifting the TT is only ever done, if the CD rubs on tray and / or other parts.

Not reading CDs due to wrong height, is normally due to TT it being too high.

 

Good luck.

[57John]

3 hours ago, rockeater said:

This guy is a real pro.

I am sure all quality repairers do it all the time.

 

The CD should be around 0.7 - 0.9mm above the height of the laser head.

To lift a TT on its shaft, I use two scalpel blades, levering the TT from two sides. This is to avoid bending the motor's shaft and braking the TT if it is plastic (which most of them are).

In order to get a right height on next installation, place business card with a slot cut for the shaft and press.

Measure the card with a vernier to select one with the right thickness.

 

In general, it is unlikely for the TT to be too low, if the TT with leaded CD still spins, because it should still be well within laser's focus range.

Lifting the TT is only ever done, if the CD rubs on tray and / or other parts.

Not reading CDs due to wrong height, is normally due to TT it being too high.

 

Good luck.

G'day Roman,

Thanks for chiming in here.

Thanks for the advice regarding standard height. 

I am still at the diagnostic stage, and I'm not convinced there is any issue with CD height any more.

 

I expect this is a power issue. For example, there have been times when I've loaded a CD and it hasn't sat absolutely flat. The resulting scratch noises heard after closing the lid, when the CD tried to spin up, mean that it is working fine, just not flat. This was fixed immediately by re-opening the lid and seating the CD properly. 

 

Now, the cd doesn't spin up at all.

What could cause that? Is there a microswitch on the lid? As it closes, it makes contact, and off it goes. Or is there something about the cd sitting atop the laser that triggers the cd to start spinning, with the door closed (a combination switch). I presume the laser travels from the centre of the disk outward. Could the laser mech be stuck? It seems unlikely, given that it was working right up until the change of the hub.

 

Ultimately, I'm looking for the simplest fix.