Options to improve clarity of dialogue

[zydeco]

So, I've never owned a AVR/AVP/multi-channel set-up instead using stereo speakers (with multiple subs) for both music and movies. This set-up has worked well for many years but over the past couple of years we've started to have a constant challenge of getting clear dialogue from the various  streaming platforms (e.g., Netflix, Apple TV+). Part of the problem seems to be that the volume has to be low to cater for scenes with special effects but it is then too low to hear to dialogue in other scenes - the result is that the family is constantly using the remote to raise and lower volume. The problem is manageable at the main listening position but a real issue in off-axis seats.

 

I appreciate that this issue is quite common so thought I'd get the wisdom of the crowd on potential solutions. One options seems to be to get an AVR/AVP for movies and then some form of 'listening mode' (e.g., dialogue enhancement, night mode ...) which reduces bass and boosts vocals to address the issue but I'm not sure if these work with just L/R speakers. Another obvious step is to add a centre channel dedicated to vocals. The issue that I've got is that whilst adding an AVR/AVP for stereo is simple the option of adding a centre channel is quite a change as there is no matching 'centre channel' for our main speakers (Gale 401). Any suggestions as to the options to solve this problem?

 

 

[BRS]

I dont use separate speakers for general TV viewing because my better half doesn't want speakers in the lounge room but we still had this issue. What I did to fix it was look at the audio settings in my TV and noticed they were set to 5.1 or similar. Changing the settings to stereo seemed to sort the problem out. This will depend on your setup so looking at the settings of the source (TV, Fetch box,etc) may help. Alternatively a sound bar may do the trick.

Edited March 3, 2024 by BRS

[zydeco]

2 hours ago, BRS said:

I dont use separate speakers for general TV viewing because my better half doesn't want speakers in the lounge room but we still had this issue. What I did to fix it was look at the audio settings in my TV and noticed they were set to 5.1 or similar. Changing the settings to stereo seemed to sort the problem out. This will depend on your setup so looking at the settings of the source (TV, Fetch box,etc) may help. Alternatively a sound bar may do the trick.

Yes, I’ve got the Fetch TV and AppleTV both set to output stereo. Not keen on a soundbar as I’ll be a big step down for music.

[BRS]

Mmmm. Afraid I'm stumped sorry. Hope someone else on the forum can chime in. 

[Snoopy8]

9 hours ago, zydeco said:

One options seems to be to get an AVR/AVP for movies and then some form of 'listening mode' (e.g., dialogue enhancement, night mode ...) which reduces bass and boosts vocals to address the issue but I'm not sure if these work with just L/R speakers. 

An AVR (& AVP) can boost the centre channel, but will likely not work when using L/R only.

 

9 hours ago, zydeco said:

The issue that I've got is that whilst adding an AVR/AVP for stereo is simple the option of adding a centre channel is quite a change as there is no matching 'centre channel' for our main speakers (Gale 401). Any suggestions as to the options to solve this problem?

You need to timbre match a centre with your mains. In other words, you have to experiment and make sure they sound the same.

 

 

[BioBrian]

If the source material is only stereo, adding a centre channel will not help at all. It would only amplify the problem, and add unnecessary complexity.

 

If the source is 5.1 or whatever, adding a processer/amp and centre speaker would give you the option of boosting the centre channel volume (which carries most of the dialogue in movies etc) and would also allow you to boost high  frequencies if needed.

 

I personally enjoy having a centre speaker. I can adjust the volume as required for dialogue, but could also adjust the frequency response (I do DIY speakers) to optimise speech.

 

I'm not convinced by the theory that a centre speaker needs to be "matched". If it has an honest (flat) frequency response, it will deliver what the sound engineer intended. The FR of your Gales is a separate issue. 

 

What I think matters is that you can control the volume of the 'dialogue' channel, and if it happens that your hearing is fading (I thoroughly recommend syringing periodically!), you could maybe boost the highs in its frequency response.

 

It seems that you've answered most of your own questions in the opening post, but when you mentioned multiple subs and lack of dialogue clarity, I  immediately thought "turn the subs down".

Edited March 3, 2024 by BioBrian
typo

[Hi-Fi Whipped]

What’s the audio chain getting the fetch and atv from digital to the analogue in your 2ch amp?

 

Back when I was running a 2ch system in a less than ideal acoustically deficient room, Dirac room eq made the difference between not hearing dialogue and hearing it fine, it was like night and day.

 

Maybe having Dirac in the chain for movie and tv watching might be a way to have the best of both worlds 

[stereo coffee]

12 hours ago, zydeco said:

So, I've never owned a AVR/AVP/multi-channel set-up instead using stereo speakers (with multiple subs) for both music and movies. This set-up has worked well for many years but over the past couple of years we've started to have a constant challenge of getting clear dialogue from the various  streaming platforms (e.g., Netflix, Apple TV+). Part of the problem seems to be that the volume has to be low to cater for scenes with special effects but it is then too low to hear to dialogue in other scenes - the result is that the family is constantly using the remote to raise and lower volume. The problem is manageable at the main listening position but a real issue in off-axis seats.

 

I appreciate that this issue is quite common so thought I'd get the wisdom of the crowd on potential solutions. One options seems to be to get an AVR/AVP for movies and then some form of 'listening mode' (e.g., dialogue enhancement, night mode ...) which reduces bass and boosts vocals to address the issue but I'm not sure if these work with just L/R speakers. Another obvious step is to add a centre channel dedicated to vocals. The issue that I've got is that whilst adding an AVR/AVP for stereo is simple the option of adding a centre channel is quite a change as there is no matching 'centre channel' for our main speakers (Gale 401). Any suggestions as to the options to solve this problem?

 

 

With Gale 401 you may just need to toe them in to your listening area. Of course improving the simplicity of how audio gets to the amplifiers you use,  is also part of the answer, Simply positioning the Gales should bring the result you need. Also the two pots on the rear of the Gales might need moving as they can get scratchy. Ideally wiring the pots out altogether is better still , but good result can usually be found by moving them to clean their contacts. 

[zydeco]

12 hours ago, BioBrian said:

 

What I think matters is that you can control the volume of the 'dialogue' channel, and if it happens that your hearing is fading (I thoroughly recommend syringing periodically!), you could maybe boost the highs in its frequency response.

 

It seems that you've answered most of your own questions in the opening post, but when you mentioned multiple subs and lack of dialogue clarity, I  immediately thought "turn the subs down".

 

Yes, funnily enough, had ears cleaned just weeks ago. The subs are managed via mini-DSP (see now) with reasonably good integration. If I stick with the current setup then I’ll try out MSO to further improve performance but if I go down the AVR/AVP route then it’ll be Dirac ART. Either way, I don’t think the problem is bloated or hyped bass but rather the vocal clarity off-axis made worse by the current industry mixing trends.

 

10 hours ago, Hi-Fi Whipped said:

What’s the audio chain getting the fetch and atv from digital to the analogue in your 2ch amp?

 

Back when I was running a 2ch system in a less than ideal acoustically deficient room, Dirac room eq made the difference between not hearing dialogue and hearing it fine, it was like night and day.

 

Maybe having Dirac in the chain for movie and tv watching might be a way to have the best of both worlds 

 Current chain for AV is FetchTV + AppleTV -> BluStream HDMI Switch -> Optical SPDIF -> mini-DSP 10x10 -> Power Amp + Gales and 2 x Powered Subwoofers. All AV sources set to stereo and video managed via HDMI to TV. The <200 region, and x/o to subwoofers, are based on REW measurements .

 

[Hi-Fi Whipped]

1 hour ago, zydeco said:

 but rather the vocal clarity off-axis made worse by the current industry mixing trends.

Not ideal but have you tried the 'reduce loud sounds" option on the ATV? This compresses dynamic range but will allow you to have the volume louder without explosions etc. taking over.

[TheBlackDisc]

Dynamic range compression works for me - but you sacrifice the atmosphere that creates.

Edited March 4, 2024 by TheBlackDisc

[a.dent]

14 hours ago, zydeco said:

 

if I go down the AVR/AVP route then it’ll be Dirac ART.

 

 

Here's your answer, although I'd give basic Dirac live or DLBC a try first before committing to Dirac ART (which is not available on many AVRs yet anyway). I wouldn't have believed a Dirac capable AVR could sound better than my old Denon AVP-A1HDA but it just blew the old tech away. Finally I don't have to turn up the centre channel 6dB anymore.

 

Of course an AVR gives you the option of setting the centre channel at whatever level you need or like.

 

I would also add that my centre speaker is a cheap Usher S-525 centre speaker but Dirac has matched it amazingly well with my Magico S5 left and right. 

Edited March 4, 2024 by a.dent

[Snoopy8]

On 04/03/2024 at 8:01 AM, zydeco said:

 If I stick with the current setup then I’ll try out MSO to further improve performance but if I go down the AVR/AVP route then it’ll be Dirac ART. 

MSO will not improve dialogue.  ART may turn up in some brands later this year, but it is Dirac Live itself which improves dialogue.  ART and DLBC improves bass integration.

 

16 hours ago, a.dent said:

I wouldn't have believed a Dirac capable AVR could sound better than my old Denon AVP-A1HDA but it just blew the old tech away. 

Glad you have joined us !  

 

16 hours ago, a.dent said:

I would also add that my centre speaker is a cheap Usher S-525 centre speaker but Dirac has matched it amazingly well with my Magico S5 left and right. 

DL does improve matching, but it cannot beat having tonally matching speakers. 

 

I used to run SGR CX4 LCR and Monitor Audio Apex as rears and DL made them work together.  However, when I changed to an all MA Apex (much much much) cheaper setup, it actually sounded better! 

[a.dent]

41 minutes ago, Snoopy8 said:

Glad you have joined us !  

 

DL does improve matching, but it cannot beat having tonally matching speakers. 

 

Yes you are of course correct in theory but I'm not sure I want (or can afford) to get a Magico centre speaker to match the Magico S5s. They're at least $20k.

 

Now I've retired I even baulked at the cost of the Integra DRX-8.4 as my new AVR.

[zydeco]

16 hours ago, Snoopy8 said:

DL does improve matching, but it cannot beat having tonally matching speakers. 

 

I used to run SGR CX4 LCR and Monitor Audio Apex as rears and DL made them work together.  However, when I changed to an all MA Apex (much much much) cheaper setup, it actually sounded better! 

Hmm. The Gale 401 is, I guess, the perfect form factor for a centre channel under a TV. It’s an awful lot of black and chrome - might be stretching my wife’s patience in our living room.

 

What, out of interest, do you use as a centre with the Kii3?

[Snoopy8]

8 hours ago, zydeco said:

What, out of interest, do you use as a centre with the Kii3?

My Kii3 are on a separate stereo setup.  Am using Monitor Audio Apex speakers, and tonally matched MA C265IDC with Arcam AVR30 and DLBC.

[dejay]

Streaming services while great, are compressing the soundtrack, that flattens the listening experience. 

 

There are somethings to look at with the TV. Firstly, some have a TV Position option (my Sony has this), for wall or tabletop. This article also has some advice that might help: https://www.makeuseof.com/how-to-fix-trouble-hearing-dialogue-on-smart-tv/#:~:text=Enable Dynamic Range&text=Go to your smart TV's,sounds emanating from your TV.

 

 

 

 

 

[balance0203]

The dialogue level adjustment on an AVR does work without a center channel. I think it just EQ boosts the dialogue frequencies 1kHz - 3kHz.

[aussievintage]

4 minutes ago, balance0203 said:

The dialogue level adjustment on an AVR does work without a center channel. I think it just EQ boosts the dialogue frequencies 1kHz - 3kHz.

 

Exactly, in fact on most systems, just boosting the mid frequencies via tone controls, will improve dialogue clarity.

[frankn]

Give the viewers on the side (of centre viewing position) each a pair of headphones 

Edited November 16, 2024 by frankn
Correction