hlov Posted February 19, 2024 Posted February 19, 2024 On 11/2/2024 at 7:27 PM, stereo coffee said: I think we can. without blood spilling. How do you propose this might be done ? I have other commitments, but can volunteer the part I am good at. . I can also volunteer with my multiple copies of Abraxas, KOB, DSOTM and COTC to evaluate the system 1 1
mharvan Posted March 24, 2024 Posted March 24, 2024 (edited) Seriously? Everyone has their own idea of 'perfect sound'. Some like clinical,( Yamaha) some like warm (Marantz) some like west coast- jbl/ Cerwin Vega some like east coast -AR polk Audio/ Boston Acoustics / Bose, some like English Wharfedale etc. And that is just speakers. Some like the clean look of a plain amplifier face ,some like lots of knobs and switches, some like shiny aluminum, some like anodized black, some like old school receivers some like minimalist. All are different, and yet all are actually "perfect". Perfection is in the ear of the listener. I have my own idea of perfection ( and I think I've achieved it) , but that doesn't mean anyone else would think it's perfect nor do I dislike other systems or sound signatures. It's all good and it's all fun. Edited March 24, 2024 by mharvan 5 1
andyr Posted March 24, 2024 Posted March 24, 2024 Mmmm, sorry - your meander comes across (to me, obvs) as similar in philosophy to that which infests our school system these days ... whereby every kid gets an A+ or a medal.
mharvan Posted March 24, 2024 Posted March 24, 2024 22 minutes ago, andyr said: Mmmm, sorry - your meander comes across (to me, obvs) as similar in philosophy to that which infests our school system these days ... whereby every kid gets an A+ or a medal. The mere fact that you and I disagree should inform you of the difficulty of picking a 'perfect system' -one perfect system for everyone. But, good luck on your quest. 1
andyr Posted March 24, 2024 Posted March 24, 2024 (edited) 13 minutes ago, mharvan said: The mere fact that you and I disagree should inform you of the difficulty of picking a 'perfect system' - one perfect system for everyone. If you define a 'perfect' system as one that is 'perfect for everyone' ... then, again, we disagree. I don't disagree with what you said earlier: 1 hour ago, mharvan said: Perfection is in the ear of the listener. However, what you said next: 1 hour ago, mharvan said: I have my own idea of perfection (and I think I've achieved it) ... is certainly way outside my own philosopy. Which is ... I have spent 50 years improving the sound of my system - and I expect the only thing that will stop me from making it perfect ... is my death! 13 minutes ago, mharvan said: But, good luck on your quest. My quest, M ... is to continually improve my system. (Which gets increasingly hard - given my lack of bagfulls of 'green' - but I still continue the jousting with windmills. ) Edited March 24, 2024 by andyr
mharvan Posted March 24, 2024 Posted March 24, 2024 8 minutes ago, andyr said: If you define a 'perfect' system as one that is 'perfect for everyone' ... then, again, we disagree. I don't disagree with what you said earlier: However, what you said next: ... is certainly way outside my own philosopy. Which is ... I have spent 50 years improving the sound of my system - and I expect the only thing that will stop me from making it perfect ... is my death! My quest, M ... is to continually improve my system. (Which gets increasingly hard - given my lack of bagfulls of 'green' - but I still continue the jousting with windmills. ) it was not my definition "a perfect system for everyone" but rather it was in the title of the thread and in its premise: "Could you imagine if the collective minds of the members on Stereonet came together, and used the vast array of knowledge to build the near perfect system." . '...build The near perfect system.' i.e singular as in one near perfect system that would be the work of the collective minds on this forum and result in a singular or universal system. which is why I said it's not possible merely because everyone's taste is different. it 's just an opinion 1
andyr Posted March 24, 2024 Posted March 24, 2024 2 hours ago, mharvan said: it was not my definition "a perfect system for everyone" but rather it was in the title of the thread and in its premise: "Could you imagine if the collective minds of the members on Stereonet came together, and used the vast array of knowledge to build the near perfect system." Sorry, I missed that, M - you are absolutely correct. I had forgotten the first post on this thread (my memory is fading ). 1
Toeknee Posted March 24, 2024 Posted March 24, 2024 (edited) I saw a fun video a while back where a panel of audio enthusiasts (experts) each put forward their best HiFi combos for staged budgets. Both analogue and digital were covered. The problem was the guys were American and everything was American. The only meaningful analysis is subjective opinion so I think the concept of the best is an illusion. Not only that, audiophiles are ridiculously over the top. Edited March 24, 2024 by Toeknee Detail
mharvan Posted March 24, 2024 Posted March 24, 2024 4 hours ago, Toeknee said: I saw a fun video a while back where a panel of audio enthusiasts (experts) each put forward their best HiFi combos for staged budgets. Both analogue and digital were covered. The problem was the guys were American and everything was American.
BLAH BLAH Posted March 25, 2024 Posted March 25, 2024 Just as a side issue/comment... My late departed dear old father...loved the phrase...be "the best"...uttered it like a holy mantra...he flung it about like heavy drops of holy water....both ordaining and confirming...be the best! Like copious handfuls of flung rice and confetti at a wedding!...be the best and god bless...Like handfuls of dirt flung down onto a coffin...be the best and be finally at rest... For him it was self explanatory...in no need of any explanation at all...nope, nix, nadda, zilch! The best by any definition, and his definition, was/is...the best!...it brooked no argument! "The Best"...It was his Logo...his jingle, jangle...his expression, saying, phrase, mantra...he drove/rode it into every conversation and discussion... Like a stolen car with low petrol...his argument/definition...could only go so far and then quickly run out of meaning... There was no middle ground...arguments could rage and thunder then points of view waiver...then the very next day...no surrender! "The Best" was where he retreated to...and was the hill he repeatedly died upon!
mharvan Posted March 25, 2024 Posted March 25, 2024 57 minutes ago, BLAH BLAH said: Just as a side issue/comment... My late departed dear old father...loved the phrase...be "the best"...uttered it like a holy mantra...he flung it about like heavy drops of holy water....both ordaining and confirming...be the best! Like copious handfuls of flung rice and confetti at a wedding!...be the best and god bless...Like handfuls of dirt flung down onto a coffin...be the best and be finally at rest... For him it was self explanatory...in no need of any explanation at all...nope, nix, nadda, zilch! The best by any definition, and his definition, was/is...the best!...it brooked no argument! "The Best"...It was his Logo...his jingle, jangle...his expression, saying, phrase, mantra...he drove/rode it into every conversation and discussion... Like a stolen car with low petrol...his argument/definition...could only go so far and then quickly run out of meaning... There was no middle ground...arguments could rage and thunder then points of view waiver...then the very next day...no surrender! "The Best" was where he retreated to...and was the hill he repeatedly died upon! I had an uncle did the same. Whatever he had was the "The BEST!" in his most authoritative voice. Sensing you might be taken aback he'd meekly offer: "now what you have is good too ...but ..." (reverting to his stern declarative voice) "...This is the BEST!!" 1
BLAH BLAH Posted March 25, 2024 Posted March 25, 2024 5 minutes ago, mharvan said: I had an uncle did the same. Whatever he had was the "The BEST!" in his most authoritative voice. Sensing you might be taken aback he'd meekly offer: "now what you have is good too ...but ..." (reverting to his stern declarative voice) "...This is the BEST!!" Hahaaa...at least you got a showing! I simply got the shower of words!
Keith_W Posted March 25, 2024 Posted March 25, 2024 This question asked by the OP has made me wonder what the goal of a "near perfect" system should be. You would think that everybody would have the same goal - reproduction of live music in your listening room. Yet there are so many different approaches and so many different preferences. And if everyone has the same goal, then systems should sound more similar than they sound different. Yet every system I have visited sounds different. I think this is because all systems are flawed. No system is capable of producing the sound of live music, they can only reproduce aspects of live music. We also have our own biases about what aspect of live music we like the most, and we pursue that. I know I have my own biases, I want a full range sound with dynamics, clarity, and transparency. I care less about imaging, soundstage, tonality, sheer ability to reach high SPL's, chest thumping bass, and so on. Not to say those things aren't important, but they are less important to me. Other people place different weighting on what they find important, and they build their systems towards achieving that. One example was an SNA'er I visited. His system was capable of tremendous SPL's and bass that hits you in the chest with particular violence. To him, it sounded like live music, and I suppose it does - he has a nightclub sound going on. Clean, clear, and big. But it was also a "wall of sound" and did not do subtlety and imaging very well. The opposite was another SNA'er who prioritized imaging above all else. Small bookshelves, carefully placed, meticulous selection of equipment. These things imaged on another level and had beautiful tonality. But ... can't go very loud, starts to distort when asked to play loud, can't do scale. Then there was a Tannoy Westminster system that I listened to (in fact I have listened to several). These things are incredibly realistic, and probably come closest to "live music in listening rooms". Realistic dynamics, incredible imaging from such a large speaker (the coaxial design probably helps!), and full range. But - coloured and thick sounding, and questionable aesthetics (for me). There are people who love the styling and the coloured, thick sound which has its own appeal though. My own system has its own set of trade-offs. It does clarity, dynamics, and full range very well, as I designed it to. But it can't go very loud either, and imaging is nowhere as good as small bookshelf speakers. I have tuned it to be as neutral as possible, which some people may not like. I was told once that my system sounded like an "analytical tool", which is a good description because that's what it is. It is "hyper clear", actually clearer than music you hear in a concert hall, and in that sense it is not realistic. So, we can't even have a goal of "reproducing live music in our listening room" as a common standard of perfection. We can only do aspects of it. IMO there will never be a near-perfect system. There can be near-perfect gear, e.g. nearly all electronics, but as soon as you connect it to a speaker and place that in a room, everything gets messed up and you have to choose your own poison. 3 1
Cloth Ears Posted March 25, 2024 Posted March 25, 2024 19 hours ago, Keith_W said: So, we can't even have a goal of "reproducing live music in our listening room" as a common standard of perfection. We can only do aspects of it. IMO there will never be a near-perfect system. There can be near-perfect gear, e.g. nearly all electronics, but as soon as you connect it to a speaker and place that in a room, everything gets messed up and you have to choose your own poison. My wife told me that she doesn't like to have an orchestra in our music room - she'd always have to clean up after them. I gave up a while back on the realism scale as you really cannot do everything. If you get the dynamics of a piano right, then you have to have very high SPL and that often affects other parts of the music. Getting imaging, or human voicing, right often means that the louder instruments suffer. So I leave that to others and try to use my imagination (along with the music) to enjoy the concert. It works quite well, even with headphones!
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