Is it irrational to want an ICE car and not an EV / Hybrid?

[betty boop]

On 1/1/2024 at 10:39 PM, purpleninja said:

I've always loved cars and motorsport - and having come over from the UK I remember my younger days of religiously watching the Formula 1 with the likes of Senna, Prost and Schumacher.

hi pn, old thread i know.. my F1 following started with Prost and senna watching them at monaco.... amazing stuff..followed since .. fallen out of it a bit ...just life too busy .. keep telling myself need to get back on it

 

On 1/1/2024 at 10:39 PM, purpleninja said:

We currently have 2 hatchbacks and enjoy them - one is an A45 (first generation) and now 10 years old but still brings a smile to my face when I drive it. My wife's daily drive. My daily drive is a Volvo V40 R-Design so enough poke (nowhere near the same as an A45) but still zippy enough to be entertaining. Bought second hand and now 9 years old.

 

ah nice ones... i remember the first a45 ! its was an amazing thing, one of forum members, no longer active here had one and brought around .. i could hear him coming from half a km or more away  with the whip crack on gear changes.. with the DCT it had. i had garden variety a250.. more a golf gti level car.. still very nice but no a45  later i owned a bmw 140i which is arch rival to a45 and become since a little bit of a cult car going down as modern classic with its wonderfull twin scroll 3L straight six, RWD and 8 speed zf ...big long bonet and you could sit back and catapult self  

 

the volvo v40 is nice .. we looked at getting one of those at one stage.. wife then said .. do you see yourself as a volvo driver  

 

On 1/1/2024 at 10:39 PM, purpleninja said:

I would never think of myself as a Luddite - but as much as I am fascinated by EVs I think when we end up replacing one of these I still think I'd prefer an ICE vehicle.

thats totally your choice isnt it. there is no compulsion to change even from what you have if dont want to. the original a45 would remain a bit of an all time classic i would say and for a long while... the volvo v40 what would you replace it with ? 

 

On 1/1/2024 at 10:39 PM, purpleninja said:

Can't see us getting a C63 - and my wife thinks our next car should be an EV or a hybrid, but I still think I'd rather an ICE.

 

these are truly amazing machines .. but also quite brutal i think.. just depends what chasing  hybrid ? would you really ? they are awful to drive ..  ice power tends to be undernourished and then all very strange when it jumps to ev power ? and then will jump back with engine kicking in ? as a car aficionado i would be frustrated as neither here nor there and definitely not typically performance cars... i do get a lot of hire cars and quite a few hybrids.. only basing on that premise.. possible there are some more amazing hybrids out there as few makes are replacing their performance machines with smaller engine hybrids..see c63 below,  just no experience  with them 

 

the c63 itself amg boss says will stay 4 cylinder going forward and be a fully electric car by 2025... 

https://www.topgear.com/car-news/hybrid/mercedes-amg-boss-c63-will-stay-4cyl-fully-electric-performance-car-2025

 

the 4cyl hybrid version? .. which by way is basically the a45 engine 2L turbo engine up front and a 150kw rear electric motor... overall though c63 way too .heavy a thing for me over 2T ? but an interesting thing by looks - interesting take from merc...

 

  Has AMG Gone Crazy? (Mercedes C63 Hybrid 2024 Review)

On 1/1/2024 at 10:39 PM, purpleninja said:

I tried to convince her that as ICE will be gone the way of the Dodo in the next 20-30 years it is our duty to have a V8 so we can pass on the experience to the kids and future generations but that didn't really  convince her. I may have channelled Mad Max 3 when I spoke of this which probably didn't help.

are the kids remotely even interested ?   or it really yourself  thats possibly why wife not convinced i suspect

 

On 1/1/2024 at 10:39 PM, purpleninja said:

I think in the next 10 years we will definitely have an EV - but I just don't feel it's time for us now.

all in good time ? my daughter used to joke i would be like clint eastwood and his gran torino in the garage with my m140i but changed jobs and I found I wanted to down size from my m140i as didnt need the bahnstormer it is ..found myself checking out a mini cooper s and asked whether i wanted to check out the electric version.. couple of drives later one up in the hills and ive owned a mini cooper SE - electric version of the cooper s for 2.5 years ! late last year we upgraded our mazda family car to a polestar 2 awd version.. very happy... i started the electric car thread here about a decade ago... more out of interest and curiosity. a change to an ev wasnt on the cars.. and was all that time before getting into an ev myself. 

 

like with any change.. folks make a change if and when they see fit. some might never .. its just how goes  

[El Tel]

On 25/07/2024 at 7:33 PM, betty boop said:

Has AMG Gone Crazy? (Mercedes C63 Hybrid 2024 Review)

 

At first glance, and also listening to the journalists (who only get a short time with their review cars), you would think so.

 

Well...

 

I sold my GLE 63s and got one of the first of the new C63 SE Performance examples to land in Oz. I was in the UK for a chunk of time whilst the car was waiting for me at the dealer, so I didn't pick it up until March. I did stipulate that I would only take delivery subject to a satisfactory test drive. I had a demo car for two days and had also tried an M3 Competition x-drive in the same few days.

 

My first hour in the demo and I was not going to buy it. It took time to work it out, but by the next morning on the way to drop the demo back, I had completely changed my mind. The cross-country run from Macedon Ranges out through Redesdale, Axedale and Fosterville was the clincher. The car has weight as per the specifications, but it is no hideously understeering water buffalo; the car is very agile (rear wheel steering aids here) and whilst it is not scalpel-sharp like the M3 in terms of steering, absolute bite on turn-in and driver feedback, it is still better than 95% of cars out there as a driver's car.

 

The engine note is not inspiring. It sounds crap - there is no other way to dress it up. It is no sonorous V8, but the old rear wheel drive C63 had little else going for it other than the sound; sure, it may have attitude and character, but it will be completely embarrassed by the new all wheel drive C63 in all departments of performance, handling and braking. Whilst we're on the engine, yes, the new C-Class flagship has the same 4 pot lump from the A45, but it has a larger turbo with an electrically-driven impeller that pretty much avoids any lag as a consequence. The A45 engine runs at 310kW, whereas the C63 incarnation runs at 350kW with its larger turbo and then adds a further 150kW with the electric motor to give a full 500kW and 1,020Nm that can be sent to any combination of wheels using the 4Matic+ torque-vectoring system. I've said this about very few cars in my time, but this is bike-fast. The official 0-100kph time is 3.4sec, but Racelogic timing kit has shown times as low as 3.05sec. My butt tells me that 3.4sec is achievable in the wet, with your gran driving to the post office to collect her pension.

 

The F1 inspired recuperation system has never left me in a position of not having electric drive on-tap when needed. It may only be a 6.1kWh battery because that is all that is needed for this. Any more battery and it adds further weight. This car was never meant to be able to do a 30km commute on electric alone; the electric is there unashamedly for performance reasons alone. If I plug it in for a charge, there is enough battery to get me into my local township and back without having to heat cycle the ICE which is kinda cool. But you can also treat it as a closed-loop hybrid and never plug it in as the recuperation is that good.

 

When in comfort mode, the engine and the electric motor do turns of duty based upon speed, incline and other inputs. The exhaust valves remain closed below 3k rpm and if you are not looking at the tacho, you can't tell which method of propulsion you are using. You also cannot detect the switch between electric and petrol through the seat-of-your-pants. There is no jolt, no sudden pulse or other physical indication of the switch between engine and motor in either direction. It is eerily good.

 

I guess the guys in Affalterbach found my weakness in getting me into anything other than a pure dinosaur-juice burner. Well played, Mercedes.

 

[BugPowderDust]

Your c63 is a beautiful specimen @El Tel. Very comfy for that time made to Brighton and you can tell it just wants to be unleashed. 
 

when the weather is less crap we should go for a belt around in your c63 and my recently home 911 turbo and grab lunch at a country pub somewhere

[Bass13]

4 hours ago, El Tel said:

 

 

 

Beautiful car, lovely colour too, dare say the V8 sound would be the only thing missed, but I'm sure she has an awesome stereo system in her that you can crank up the tunes, and enjoy the journey out in that lovely countryside. 

[El Tel]

9 minutes ago, Bass13 said:

 

Beautiful car, lovely colour too, dare say the V8 sound would be the only thing missed, but I'm sure she has an awesome stereo system in her that you can crank up the tunes, and enjoy the journey out in that lovely countryside. 

 

I don't completely hate the sound. As long as you're in a hotter engine mode than Comfort (Sport, Sport+ or Race) the overrun pops and crackles are pretty entertaining and when in Sport+ or Race mode, the full throttle upchanges are pretty violent and are accompanied with some significant aural theatre. It makes me wince a little at the stress the drive shafts are going through, but that's what a warranty is for, right?

 

You're right on tunes though; the Burmester stereo is pretty good.

[AudioGeek]

47 minutes ago, El Tel said:

 

I don't completely hate the sound. As long as you're in a hotter engine mode than Comfort (Sport, Sport+ or Race) the overrun pops and crackles are pretty entertaining and when in Sport+ or Race mode, the full throttle upchanges are pretty violent and are accompanied with some significant aural theatre. It makes me wince a little at the stress the drive shafts are going through, but that's what a warranty is for, right?

 

You're right on tunes though; the Burmester stereo is pretty good.

 

Is the sound mostly fake inside - like the A45s?

 

What factors made you pick the c63se over the m3 xdrive?

[betty boop]

33 minutes ago, AudioGeek said:

Is the sound mostly fake inside - like the A45s?

was the a45 ever fake ? it had a whip cracking exahust. its one thing i remember with my merc a250 it still had a "engineered by amg" exhaust which had a nice cackle and very real...this was original a45.. did they got fake later ? 

 

my bmw m140i i had later had a better engine and gear box..but it was so well insulated you wouldny hear much of the engine and the exhaust was pretty mild so it had fake sounds.. stock it sounded like a f1 car  a crescendo that was amazing ...  it was called ASD.. you could switch it off .. but it sounded very boring then  

Edited July 27 by betty boop

[joz]

5 hours ago, El Tel said:

 

At first glance, and also listening to the journalists (who only get a short time with their review cars), you would think so.

 

Well...

 

I sold my GLE 63s and got one of the first of the new C63 SE Performance examples to land in Oz. I was in the UK for a chunk of time whilst the car was waiting for me at the dealer, so I didn't pick it up until March. I did stipulate that I would only take delivery subject to a satisfactory test drive. I had a demo car for two days and had also tried an M3 Competition x-drive in the same few days.

 

My first hour in the demo and I was not going to buy it. It took time to work it out, but by the next morning on the way to drop the demo back, I had completely changed my mind. The cross-country run from Macedon Ranges out through Redesdale, Axedale and Fosterville was the clincher. The car has weight as per the specifications, but it is no hideously understeering water buffalo; the car is very agile (rear wheel steering aids here) and whilst it is not scalpel-sharp like the M3 in terms of steering, absolute bite on turn-in and driver feedback, it is still better than 95% of cars out there as a driver's car.

 

The engine note is not inspiring. It sounds crap - there is no other way to dress it up. It is no sonorous V8, but the old rear wheel drive C63 had little else going for it other than the sound; sure, it may have attitude and character, but it will be completely embarrassed by the new all wheel drive C63 in all departments of performance, handling and braking. Whilst we're on the engine, yes, the new C-Class flagship has the same 4 pot lump from the A45, but it has a larger turbo with an electrically-driven impeller that pretty much avoids any lag as a consequence. The A45 engine runs at 310kW, whereas the C63 incarnation runs at 350kW with its larger turbo and then adds a further 150kW with the electric motor to give a full 500kW and 1,020Nm that can be sent to any combination of wheels using the 4Matic+ torque-vectoring system. I've said this about very few cars in my time, but this is bike-fast. The official 0-100kph time is 3.4sec, but Racelogic timing kit has shown times as low as 3.05sec. My butt tells me that 3.4sec is achievable in the wet, with your gran driving to the post office to collect her pension.

 

The F1 inspired recuperation system has never left me in a position of not having electric drive on-tap when needed. It may only be a 6.1kWh battery because that is all that is needed for this. Any more battery and it adds further weight. This car was never meant to be able to do a 30km commute on electric alone; the electric is there unashamedly for performance reasons alone. If I plug it in for a charge, there is enough battery to get me into my local township and back without having to heat cycle the ICE which is kinda cool. But you can also treat it as a closed-loop hybrid and never plug it in as the recuperation is that good.

 

When in comfort mode, the engine and the electric motor do turns of duty based upon speed, incline and other inputs. The exhaust valves remain closed below 3k rpm and if you are not looking at the tacho, you can't tell which method of propulsion you are using. You also cannot detect the switch between electric and petrol through the seat-of-your-pants. There is no jolt, no sudden pulse or other physical indication of the switch between engine and motor in either direction. It is eerily good.

 

I guess the guys in Affalterbach found my weakness in getting me into anything other than a pure dinosaur-juice burner. Well played, Mercedes.

 

Nice , sounds a bit like what Porca have done with their new 992GTS?

A great way to have a Hybrid, though I’m not sure if the Porca can drive just on volts alone

 

4 hours ago, BugPowderDust said:

Your c63 is a beautiful specimen @El Tel. Very comfy for that time made to Brighton and you can tell it just wants to be unleashed. 
 

when the weather is less crap we should go for a belt around in your c63 and my recently home 911 turbo and grab lunch at a country pub somewhere

which turbo?

[Guest]

5 hours ago, El Tel said:

 

At first glance, and also listening to the journalists (who only get a short time with their review cars), you would think so.

 

Well...

 

I sold my GLE 63s and got one of the first of the new C63 SE Performance examples to land in Oz. I was in the UK for a chunk of time whilst the car was waiting for me at the dealer, so I didn't pick it up until March. I did stipulate that I would only take delivery subject to a satisfactory test drive. I had a demo car for two days and had also tried an M3 Competition x-drive in the same few days.

 

My first hour in the demo and I was not going to buy it. It took time to work it out, but by the next morning on the way to drop the demo back, I had completely changed my mind. The cross-country run from Macedon Ranges out through Redesdale, Axedale and Fosterville was the clincher. The car has weight as per the specifications, but it is no hideously understeering water buffalo; the car is very agile (rear wheel steering aids here) and whilst it is not scalpel-sharp like the M3 in terms of steering, absolute bite on turn-in and driver feedback, it is still better than 95% of cars out there as a driver's car.

 

The engine note is not inspiring. It sounds crap - there is no other way to dress it up. It is no sonorous V8, but the old rear wheel drive C63 had little else going for it other than the sound; sure, it may have attitude and character, but it will be completely embarrassed by the new all wheel drive C63 in all departments of performance, handling and braking. Whilst we're on the engine, yes, the new C-Class flagship has the same 4 pot lump from the A45, but it has a larger turbo with an electrically-driven impeller that pretty much avoids any lag as a consequence. The A45 engine runs at 310kW, whereas the C63 incarnation runs at 350kW with its larger turbo and then adds a further 150kW with the electric motor to give a full 500kW and 1,020Nm that can be sent to any combination of wheels using the 4Matic+ torque-vectoring system. I've said this about very few cars in my time, but this is bike-fast. The official 0-100kph time is 3.4sec, but Racelogic timing kit has shown times as low as 3.05sec. My butt tells me that 3.4sec is achievable in the wet, with your gran driving to the post office to collect her pension.

 

The F1 inspired recuperation system has never left me in a position of not having electric drive on-tap when needed. It may only be a 6.1kWh battery because that is all that is needed for this. Any more battery and it adds further weight. This car was never meant to be able to do a 30km commute on electric alone; the electric is there unashamedly for performance reasons alone. If I plug it in for a charge, there is enough battery to get me into my local township and back without having to heat cycle the ICE which is kinda cool. But you can also treat it as a closed-loop hybrid and never plug it in as the recuperation is that good.

 

When in comfort mode, the engine and the electric motor do turns of duty based upon speed, incline and other inputs. The exhaust valves remain closed below 3k rpm and if you are not looking at the tacho, you can't tell which method of propulsion you are using. You also cannot detect the switch between electric and petrol through the seat-of-your-pants. There is no jolt, no sudden pulse or other physical indication of the switch between engine and motor in either direction. It is eerily good.

 

I guess the guys in Affalterbach found my weakness in getting me into anything other than a pure dinosaur-juice burner. Well played, Mercedes.

 

 

Great write up, more eleoquently put than when we have spoken in person about it. I should have taken the opportunity for a ride - next time.

[betty boop]

8 minutes ago, joz said:

Nice , sounds a bit like what Porca have done with their new 992GTS?

A great way to have a Hybrid, though I’m not sure if the Porca can drive just on volts alone

 

this was last week...

 The Panamera Turbo S E-Hybrid sets new Nürburgring record

 

 

Porsche has been doing it for a while ? they did a lap record at ring with the 919 hybrid eco in 2018...

 

 

[Guest]

34 minutes ago, AudioGeek said:

Is the sound mostly fake inside - like the A45s?

 

 

I had the GLA45 some years back, and there was nothing fake about it! The closest thing I've had to a go-kart for handling (and that's the small SUV, I can only imagine how much better then A45 is/was). But the sound was tolerable, if not at times enjoyable!

 

Now i have the EQE 53 SUV, and yes, that's totally fake sound inside. It sounds like some sort of futuristing starship on acid. It's the first thing everyone turns off (myself included!).

[AudioGeek]

27 minutes ago, Marc said:

 

I had the GLA45 some years back, and there was nothing fake about it! The closest thing I've had to a go-kart for handling (and that's the small SUV, I can only imagine how much better then A45 is/was). But the sound was tolerable, if not at times enjoyable!

 

Now i have the EQE 53 SUV, and yes, that's totally fake sound inside. It sounds like some sort of futuristing starship on acid. It's the first thing everyone turns off (myself included!).

 

49 minutes ago, betty boop said:

was the a45 ever fake ? it had a whip cracking exahust. its one thing i remember with my merc a250 it still had a "engineered by amg" exhaust which had a nice cackle and very real...this was original a45.. did they got fake later ? 

 

 

I have a 4 yr old current gen A45s. Lots of fake noise inside through the speakers. Although its not synthesized, actually has a microphone in the exhaust system!

 

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, AudioGeek said:

I have a 4 yr old current gen A45s. Lots of fake noise inside through the speakers. Although its not synthesized, actually has a microphone in the exhaust system!

 

 

Ahh mine must have been a generation before that then I think  I stand corrected!

[Guest]

41 minutes ago, betty boop said:

 The Panamera Turbo S E-Hybrid sets new Nürburgring record

 

 

This sorta reminds of Strava and long-standing KOMs getting beaten when e-Bikes emerged.
I may or may not have smashed all the local ones until Strava wised up and started categorising e-Bikes seperately

[El Tel]

1 hour ago, AudioGeek said:

 

Is the sound mostly fake inside - like the A45s?

 

What factors made you pick the c63se over the m3 xdrive?

 

More fake inside than my wife's A45, but having listened to Mrs Tel birching the living crap out of it from kerbside, the c63 is not entirely faking it.

 

I picked it over the M3 for the sheer pace and the tech. Mrs Tel gets a corporate discount at BMW which made it a compelling proposition. Even though the c63 was $30k more when discounts were applied, the differentiation still put the c63 ahead in my book.

[betty boop]

8 minutes ago, Marc said:

Ahh mine must have been a generation before that then I think  I stand corrected!

yours sounds like an earlier gen like mine when exhaust sound was real  

 

49 minutes ago, Marc said:

Now i have the EQE 53 SUV, and yes, that's totally fake sound inside. It sounds like some sort of futuristing starship on acid. It's the first thing everyone turns off (myself included!).

not a huge fan of fake ev sounds either.. bmw, mini, porsche, fiat also seem to have them, fortunately can turn off...

without sounds our mini and polestar both have pedestrian alert thats all... after that the mini sounds like a little jet fighter with its little electric motor, and the polestar with its dual motors more like a jumbo when it takes off.. 

[betty boop]

1 hour ago, Marc said:

 

This sorta reminds of Strava and long-standing KOMs getting beaten when e-Bikes emerged.
I may or may not have smashed all the local ones until Strava wised up and started categorising e-Bikes seperately

 

haha 

 

they do seem to have categories, 

 

 the fastest time ever is still by that porsche hybrid back in 2018  with 5:19.55 minutes in a 919 Hybrid Evo

 

the one last week was fastest top-class saloon with a combustion and hybrid engine 7:24: 172

 

as off last year for production cars...

 

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/best-cars-vans/86123/fastest-nurburgring-lap-times

 

Fastest Nurburgring lap times (production cars) 2023

Mercedes-AMG One -  6:35.183s

Porsche 911 GT2 RS MR - 6.43.300s

Mercedes-AMG Black Series - 6:43.616s

Porsche 911 GT3 RS (992) - 6:44.84s

Lamborghini Aventador SVJ - 6:44.97s

Porsche 911 GT2 RS - 6:47.3s

Lamborghini Huracan Performante - 6:52:01s

Porsche 911 GT3 (992) - 6:55.3

Porsche 911 GT3 RS (991.2) - 6:56.4s

Porsche 918 Spyder (Weissach Package) - 6:57s

 

the merc amg-one is a hybrid and a super car.

 

as far as evs go...

 

a pre-production Porsche Taycan EV did a time of seven minutes and 7.55 seconds

Tesla Model S Plaid with Track Pack did 7.25.231 in 2023

a Rimac Nevera EV 7.5.298 seconds

 

so pure ev got a little way to go still...  

[BugPowderDust]

4 hours ago, joz said:

which turbo?

997. It was one of the only things I kept from my divorce. It has a special place in my garage and heart.
 

Only just done 30,000km, so local Porsche dealership said it is worth more now than when I bought it.

[joz]

2 hours ago, BugPowderDust said:

997. It was one of the only things I kept from my divorce. It has a special place in my garage and heart.
 

Only just done 30,000km, so local Porsche dealership said it is worth more now than when I bought it.

RU a club member?

ok I have a 996tt that gets driven as often as I can

Well done on a low K 997tt

Edited July 27 by joz

[BugPowderDust]

No, not a club member. My 997 used to be my daily driver when I lived in the city, but since relocating to the bush about 7 years ago, I spend much more time driving a Discovery (now a Defender) and my Can Am Defender.

 

the roads around here are awful. Potholes, debris, just asking for dings. It gets a good fair weather drive in the warmer months, but not much at this time of year. 

[betty boop]

for those chasing a hybrid in performance car.. ie not quite there with EVs and want still some petrol involved.. like merc c63 hybrid above, bmw has their own take with the mighty M5 coming with the sedan and this interesting bahn storming station wagon...welcome back the sports wagon   

 

this unlike merc above is keeping the V8 ! with same idea of petrol engine coupled with electric motor ..

 

"As with the latest M5 sedan, the Touring features a plug-in hybrid system pairing a 430kW/750Nm 4.4-litre twin-turbocharged petrol V8 with a 145kW/280Nm electric motor for a 535kW and 1000Nm total system output."

and yep its coming to australia too... 

https://www.drive.com.au/news/2025-bmw-m5-touring-revealed-australia/

[betty boop]

for v8 lovers looking for hybrid ..merc has reportedly done a back flip on the 4 cyl in the 63 model so the new coupe comes back with a V8 ..s the v8 will live again ... this though looks like mild hybrid rather than the plug in hybrid and dual use of electric and petrol power both the 4 cyl merc and bmw m5 will use .. with gutsy electric motor adding significantly ... 

 

Mercedes Admits Defeat, Reportedly Drops Four-Cylinder for V-8 in CLE63

The report cites slow sales for the four-cylinder hybrid AMG C63 in Europe as the reason for the switch.

https://www.motor1.com/news/719266/mercedes-drops-four-cylinder-hybrid-v8-cle63/

[AudioGeek]

4 minutes ago, betty boop said:

for v8 lovers looking for hybrid ..merc has reportedly done a back flip on the 4 cyl in the 63 model so the new coupe comes back with a V8 ..s the v8 will live again ... this though looks like mild hybrid rather than the plug in hybrid and dual use of electric and petrol power both the 4 cyl merc and bmw m5 will use .. with gutsy electric motor adding significantly ... 

 

Mercedes Admits Defeat, Reportedly Drops Four-Cylinder for V-8 in CLE63

The report cites slow sales for the four-cylinder hybrid AMG C63 in Europe as the reason for the switch.

https://www.motor1.com/news/719266/mercedes-drops-four-cylinder-hybrid-v8-cle63/

 

Presumably still with the amg 4matic+ awd system? Finally the c63 everyone was hoping for. For a hero car like that I would gladly trade hp for V8 rumble.

 

I was getting my car serviced yesterday at local mb dealer. First time i have ever seen a new c63s of any description on their showroom floor - the guys told me it came in the first allocation and has not moved! Offered me a trade in on my a45s without me even asking lol

[betty boop]

37 minutes ago, AudioGeek said:

I was getting my car serviced yesterday at local mb dealer. First time i have ever seen a new c63s of any description on their showroom floor - the guys told me it came in the first allocation and has not moved! Offered me a trade in on my a45s without me even asking lol

 car dealerships are hurting right now big time ... i keep getting emails and texts from bmw to come trade my car in for something else  

 

the a45s is 1635kg... id stick with that.. but i tend to love small and lighter cats.. the c63se is 2165 or some 530kg ! heavier, i think would easily feel that extra half a ton carrying it around

[Bass13]

25 minutes ago, betty boop said:

 car dealerships are hurting right now big time ... i keep getting emails and texts from bmw to come trade my car in for something else  

 

Good...they all need to be taught a lesson, another industry of pure profit taking.