Is it irrational to want an ICE car and not an EV / Hybrid?

[purpleninja]

I've always loved cars and motorsport - and having come over from the UK I remember my younger days of religiously watching the Formula 1 with the likes of Senna, Prost and Schumacher.

 

A friend and I used to take his WRX to the circuits around London with a set of track tyres in the back and boot, we'd swap them out and have fun, and then drive home again. Had an M3 back in the UK and some friends and I did a few road trips around Europe - including on the Nurburgring, Brenner Pass, and other entertaining drives.

 

I've also always been a bit of a tech head and love futuristic things, sci fi, computers, modern architecture, etc.  - and I love the idea of EVs and where they are going.

 

We currently have 2 hatchbacks and enjoy them - one is an A45 (first generation) and now 10 years old but still brings a smile to my face when I drive it. My wife's daily drive. My daily drive is a Volvo V40 R-Design so enough poke (nowhere near the same as an A45) but still zippy enough to be entertaining. Bought second hand and now 9 years old.

 

I would never think of myself as a Luddite - but as much as I am fascinated by EVs I think when we end up replacing one of these I still think I'd prefer an ICE vehicle.

 

My guilty watch over the last 12 months on CarSales has been C63s - the naturally aspirated V8 variant that they stopped making back around 2014 or so. Can't see us getting a C63 - and my wife thinks our next car should be an EV or a hybrid, but I still think I'd rather an ICE.

 

I tried to convince her that as ICE will be gone the way of the Dodo in the next 20-30 years it is our duty to have a V8 so we can pass on the experience to the kids and future generations but that didn't really  convince her. I may have channelled Mad Max 3 when I spoke of this which probably didn't help.

 

I think in the next 10 years we will definitely have an EV - but I just don't feel it's time for us now.

 

Is this completely irrational, irresponsible, or are there others like me out there?

[joz]

Go with your heart .

YOLO!

[playdough]

On 01/01/2024 at 10:39 PM, purpleninja said:

Is this completely irrational, irresponsible, or are there others like me out there?

No and you are not alone.

 

[El Tel]

I hear you.

 

I have a similar history coming from South London. Owned a number of high performance vehicles over the years and regularly did track days and schleps over to the continent too. BMW M3 (E36 times three, two 3.0 and one 3.2), Mitsubishi Lancer Evo5, Subaru STI 5 Type-R, Lotus Elise S1, TVR Tuscan. Then there were bikes and racing bikes too.

 

Since arriving in Oz 9 years ago, and living in rural Vic, our household has gone through Focus ST, Audi RS3, Focus RS, Audi RS4 and currently runs a 22 GLE AMG 63s and a 23 AMG A45s.

 

I can't get enthusiastic about EV offerings and next time I change the current vehicles, I can't see us changing to EV.

[Keith_W]

You are not alone either, but my reasons for not wanting an EV are different to yours. 

 

One reason is that the majority of EV's have done away with buttons. The new Tesla Model 3 has no drive mode selector, it is on the touchscreen (and a stupid panel on the roof). I don't want a touch screen to select "reverse" when I am parallel parking on a busy road! I don't want to hunt around for a small touchscreen icon to change air cond settings! There was a study that monitored driver inattention while made to perform common tasks (change the radio, turn on the heating, etc) that found that any car that relied on a touch screen significantly worsened driver inattention. It is illegal to even touch your phone in the car. Why is an exception made for touch screens? 

 

Yes, I am aware that this is not an EV specific thing, it's found on ICE cars as well. But they seem more prevalent on EV's. So, rule no. 1: no touch screen cars, ever. I need my controls on buttons and knobs. Any car that makes me do anything else is a hard "no" from me. 

 

So what about EV's that do have some buttons and knobs, like MG's, BYD's and Polestars? Unfortunately, they fail rule no. 2: no cars from China. I am not ready to put my safety in the hands of Chinese engineers until these cars have been in the market for longer and they prove themselves to be competent and safe designers. I am not racist against Chinese (given that I am Chinese myself!) but I am sceptical about their design and manufacturing standards. 

 

What about EV's from Mercedes, BMW, and Audi? Sorry, too expensive when compared to their ICE offerings (in fact this is true for all EV's). Why pay E Class money and drive around in an equivalent which is a C class? 

 

I am sure that over the next few years, all of this will change. Petrol prices may rise, battery prices might fall, and that would change the economic argument more strongly in favour of EV's. More manufacturers will enter the market. Battery performance and safety will improve. But until then, I am not ready to enter the EV market. 

[Cloth Ears]

On 01/01/2024 at 10:39 PM, purpleninja said:

I've always loved cars and motorsport - and having come over from the UK I remember my younger days of religiously watching the Formula 1 with the likes of Senna, Prost and Schumacher.

 

A friend and I used to take his WRX to the circuits around London with a set of track tyres in the back and boot, we'd swap them out and have fun, and then drive home again. Had an M3 back in the UK and some friends and I did a few road trips around Europe - including on the Nurburgring, Brenner Pass, and other entertaining drives.

 

I've also always been a bit of a tech head and love futuristic things, sci fi, computers, modern architecture, etc.  - and I love the idea of EVs and where they are going.

 

We currently have 2 hatchbacks and enjoy them - one is an A45 (first generation) and now 10 years old but still brings a smile to my face when I drive it. My wife's daily drive. My daily drive is a Volvo V40 R-Design so enough poke (nowhere near the same as an A45) but still zippy enough to be entertaining. Bought second hand and now 9 years old.

 

I would never think of myself as a Luddite - but as much as I am fascinated by EVs I think when we end up replacing one of these I still think I'd prefer an ICE vehicle.

 

My guilty watch over the last 12 months on CarSales has been C63s - the naturally aspirated V8 variant that they stopped making back around 2014 or so. Can't see us getting a C63 - and my wife thinks our next car should be an EV or a hybrid, but I still think I'd rather an ICE.

 

I tried to convince her that as ICE will be gone the way of the Dodo in the next 20-30 years it is our duty to have a V8 so we can pass on the experience to the kids and future generations but that didn't really  convince her. I may have channelled Mad Max 3 when I spoke of this which probably didn't help.

 

I think in the next 10 years we will definitely have an EV - but I just don't feel it's time for us now.

 

Is this completely irrational, irresponsible, or are there others like me out there?

It's not going with the current trend, but then trends are not always the way to go.

 

I must admit that I'm kicking myself for not going with the Mercedes E300e wagon that we test drove before I got my current car (Renault GT wagon). Press the go pedal down enough and you get both engines online and a faster pickup than the C63. But we decided to go another way (as it wouldn't take a tow-bar...the crosses you choose to die on!)

 

You can't go back, unfortunately. I don't think I've ever seen one for sale...

[AudioGeek]

As a purely city car I think I could replace my A45s with an Ioniq 5N (Korean quality is better than German these days). By all accounts a drivers EV.

Would not trust an EV driving around the country, but maybe a hybrid.

 

A friend (engineer) recently did a production quality inspection of several car plants in China. His thoughts were manufacturing practices in their automotive field have gone significantly backwards compared to precovid era. His advice to me was to stay away from Chinese built cars for the time being. 

[Briz Vegas]

I ran a Peugeot 306 for 20 years because it was and probably still is the king of hatchbacks if you value how a car drives. Every roundabout just felt satisfying. Even on the day I sold it I kind of knew I would regret it. 

 

I have had a Model 3 performance for 4 years. Clearly I am no longer as young as I was, and it weighs about 600kg more that the Pug (so does a petrol BMW 3 series WTF).  While roundabouts can't feel the same it has other characteristics.  I love the flow you get driving down a mountain road on regen.  Tesla regen is all on the accelerator (unlike legacy EVs) and is set and forget. You have all the control you want just by modulating the accelerator. No petrol car can do that.

 

For me sticking with combustion means I would be missing out on something new with its own benefits and pleasures.  I would have gone with the Mini electric but in 2019 range was far more critical than it is today.  I can't justify two cars, but if I did the other would be a classic Pug as a guilty pleasure.

[El Tel]

3 minutes ago, Briz Vegas said:

I ran a Peugeot 306 for 20 years because it was and probably still is the king of hatchbacks if you value how a car drives. Every roundabout just felt satisfying. Even on the day I sold it I kind of knew I would regret it. 

 

I have had a Model 3 performance for 4 years. Clearly I am no longer as young as I was, and it weighs about 600kg more that the Pug (so does a petrol BMW 3 series WTF).  While roundabouts can't feel the same it has other characteristics.  I love the flow you get driving down a mountain road on regen.  Tesla regen is all on the accelerator (unlike legacy EVs) and is set and forget. You have all the control you want just by modulating the accelerator. No petrol car can do that.

 

For me sticking with combustion means I would be missing out on something new with its own benefits and pleasures.  I would have gone with the Mini electric but in 2019 range was far more critical than it is today.  I can't justify two cars, but if I did the other would be a classic Pug as a guilty pleasure.

 

Nothing quite like the classic French hatches for fun, poise, communication and punch. I'm still not sure the Golf GTi ever got close to how good the Pug 205 1.9GTi was in the mid 80s... That thing was a hoot. The inside rear would lift off the road and wag like a demented labrador's tail when taking roundabouts at pace.

[purpleninja]

3 hours ago, El Tel said:

I hear you.

 

I have a similar history coming from South London. Owned a number of high performance vehicles over the years and regularly did track days and schleps over to the continent too. BMW M3 (E36 times three, two 3.0 and one 3.2), Mitsubishi Lancer Evo5, Subaru STI 5 Type-R, Lotus Elise S1, TVR Tuscan. Then there were bikes and racing bikes too.

 

Since arriving in Oz 9 years ago, and living in rural Vic, our household has gone through Focus ST, Audi RS3, Focus RS, Audi RS4 and currently runs a 22 GLE AMG 63s and a 23 AMG A45s.

 

I can't get enthusiastic about EV offerings and next time I change the current vehicles, I can't see us changing to EV.

 

I remember spending plenty of time on Scoobynet working out the best options for the STi back in the day - and some of the meet-ups etc.

 

I misread your post as you had 23x A45S - and for the life of me I couldn't work out why you'd need so many 

 

I had a E36 M3 3.0 - I loved that car and we got plenty of fun out of it, but the STi was a blast on the tracks.

 

I remember seeing the prices of European cars in the UK and thinking how lucky they were to have so many on offer for so much less than in the UK, and then I came to Australia and I realise how good we actually had it back in the UK in the 1990s from a pricing perspective.

 

[purpleninja]

3 hours ago, Keith_W said:

You are not alone either, but my reasons for not wanting an EV are different to yours. 

 

One reason is that the majority of EV's have done away with buttons. The new Tesla Model 3 has no drive mode selector, it is on the touchscreen (and a stupid panel on the roof). I don't want a touch screen to select "reverse" when I am parallel parking on a busy road! I don't want to hunt around for a small touchscreen icon to change air cond settings! There was a study that monitored driver inattention while made to perform common tasks (change the radio, turn on the heating, etc) that found that any car that relied on a touch screen significantly worsened driver inattention. It is illegal to even touch your phone in the car. Why is an exception made for touch screens? 

 

Yes, I am aware that this is not an EV specific thing, it's found on ICE cars as well. But they seem more prevalent on EV's. So, rule no. 1: no touch screen cars, ever. I need my controls on buttons and knobs. Any car that makes me do anything else is a hard "no" from me. 

 

So what about EV's that do have some buttons and knobs, like MG's, BYD's and Polestars? Unfortunately, they fail rule no. 2: no cars from China. I am not ready to put my safety in the hands of Chinese engineers until these cars have been in the market for longer and they prove themselves to be competent and safe designers. I am not racist against Chinese (given that I am Chinese myself!) but I am sceptical about their design and manufacturing standards. 

 

What about EV's from Mercedes, BMW, and Audi? Sorry, too expensive when compared to their ICE offerings (in fact this is true for all EV's). Why pay E Class money and drive around in an equivalent which is a C class? 

 

I am sure that over the next few years, all of this will change. Petrol prices may rise, battery prices might fall, and that would change the economic argument more strongly in favour of EV's. More manufacturers will enter the market. Battery performance and safety will improve. But until then, I am not ready to enter the EV market. 

 

I am happy to have touchscreens in a car (that said it's all theory for us as our current cars don't have touchscreens) but not to replace knobs and dials - to add to, and in some cases to replace - but not for some of the functions like wipers, indicators, etc. - I understand that there will be a learning curve to adjust to this and I understand the way Tesla has tried to reimagine the car from the ground up and not be forced to stick with convention for the sake of it - but in my view not everything in current ICE vehicles needs to be replaced with a very different way of doing things.

 

I also don't like the way Teslas have done away with the display in front of the driver - as I really don't like to have to look to my left to see information - would like to keep my eyes facing forward. My sat nav shows on the dash and although it shows a better larger image on the centre console I only look at that when I'm stationary - I don't want to risk it when driving. I know you can get after-market addons to add a driver's console onto Teslas but this seems daft to me to buy a new car and then have to add something like this to it.

 

I can't stand the look of the Mercedes EVs - - the styling just looks weird to me. Also I know that there is no need for a radiator grille - but some of the EVs with the way there is a blob instead of the grille looks like a half arsed design job to me.

 

Completely agree with you that I also can't get past paying the premium for EV - that the equivalent ICE will be about $20k or so cheaper - so you pretty much can choose to get quite a step up in vehicle class by staying with ICE. I'm happy to wait for the price equalisation as I know that will happen as demand and supply come into better synch - and as we don't do a huge amount of driving (city-based mostly) and are in the fortunate position to be able to pay for the petrol - I'm ok to stay with ICE for now.

Edited January 4 by purpleninja

[purpleninja]

2 hours ago, Cloth Ears said:

It's not going with the current trend, but then trends are not always the way to go.

 

I must admit that I'm kicking myself for not going with the Mercedes E300e wagon that we test drove before I got my current car (Renault GT wagon). Press the go pedal down enough and you get both engines online and a faster pickup than the C63. But we decided to go another way (as it wouldn't take a tow-bar...the crosses you choose to die on!)

 

You can't go back, unfortunately. I don't think I've ever seen one for sale...

 

The E300e wagon is a fantastic car - we all have one or two "ones that got away"

 

Performance wagons are like hens teeth - people keep them as they are so versatile and entertaining.

[purpleninja]

1 hour ago, AudioGeek said:

As a purely city car I think I could replace my A45s with an Ioniq 5N (Korean quality is better than German these days). By all accounts a drivers EV.

Would not trust an EV driving around the country, but maybe a hybrid.

 

A friend (engineer) recently did a production quality inspection of several car plants in China. His thoughts were manufacturing practices in their automotive field have gone significantly backwards compared to precovid era. His advice to me was to stay away from Chinese built cars for the time being. 

 

That's good to know about the quality of manufacturing - I have wondered about this as the general quality of many manufacturers (European as well) does appear to be dropping.

 

The Ioniq 5N did get my interest also - some of the reviews doing the rounds are pretty impressive - but what I really found reassuring from this vehicle is that Hyundai (and hopefully others) understand that there are some behaviours in ICE cars that even if emulated on an EV - can add to the experience. I'll be interested in seeing how this sells - based on the reviews I'd suspect it will do very well.

 

What I would love to see is an EV like this: https://www.hyundai-n.com/en/models/rolling-lab/n-vision-74.do

 

Edited January 4 by purpleninja

[purpleninja]

46 minutes ago, Briz Vegas said:

I ran a Peugeot 306 for 20 years because it was and probably still is the king of hatchbacks if you value how a car drives. Every roundabout just felt satisfying. Even on the day I sold it I kind of knew I would regret it. 

 

I have had a Model 3 performance for 4 years. Clearly I am no longer as young as I was, and it weighs about 600kg more that the Pug (so does a petrol BMW 3 series WTF).  While roundabouts can't feel the same it has other characteristics.  I love the flow you get driving down a mountain road on regen.  Tesla regen is all on the accelerator (unlike legacy EVs) and is set and forget. You have all the control you want just by modulating the accelerator. No petrol car can do that.

 

For me sticking with combustion means I would be missing out on something new with its own benefits and pleasures.  I would have gone with the Mini electric but in 2019 range was far more critical than it is today.  I can't justify two cars, but if I did the other would be a classic Pug as a guilty pleasure.

 

French hatchbacks when they are new handle amazingly well and the styling of the 306 was great. I'm amazed you got 20 years from it - I had two friends who had 306s in the 1990s and after 4 or so years the cars just weren't what they had originally bought by a significant margin. One of them for example almost didn't need to use the clutch to change gear as the gearbox had just turned to slush. But when new they were a real hoot to drive.

 

 

39 minutes ago, El Tel said:

 

Nothing quite like the classic French hatches for fun, poise, communication and punch. I'm still not sure the Golf GTi ever got close to how good the Pug 205 1.9GTi was in the mid 80s... That thing was a hoot. The inside rear would lift off the road and wag like a demented labrador's tail when taking roundabouts at pace.

 

I agree - the Golf and variants were great, but the French hatches had them beaten on style and entertainment, but not on the longevity!

 

[Ihearmusic]

Considering that the CO2 created to build an EV is approximately the equivalent of you driving an average ICE car for 200000km, there is nothing to fell bad about buying an ICE car.

An ICE car is also more recyclable then an EV ( Battery in particular).

Hydrogen cars have been around for a few decades now and if Toyota has their way, Hydrogen will be the way of the future.

The European car makers also don"t see EVs as the future. They only gave in to the pressure of the greenes and rolled out a few models. Hydrogen is what they have their eyes on,

[Orpheus]

Orpheus bursting in on this topic after many years away from stereo.net.au, hello to anyone who remembers me (I remember plenty of the contributors to this one). 

 

I've just bought a Tesla Model 3 Highland dual motor, had it for a week, and it is the most enjoyable and easy to drive car I have ever driven. I have not had a problem with operating it through the screen. The haptic buttons for indicators are no trouble, just slightly tricky in roundabouts.

 

I would suggest taking one for a test drive, it might change a few minds. The acceleration is crazy, it is also quiet, the sound system is good, and the handling is good too, it's feels like a premium car, the previous version, not so much.

 

I have bought it even though I can't charge at home. I have already topped up a couple of times while at the shopping centre, both times using free chargers.

 

There are a few myths here; first, that somehow hydrogen will be the answer for cars. No. It is a much less efficient means of powering a vehicle than batteries. Second, that the European manufacturers "don't see EVs as the future". No. They know it is the future, they just haven't figured out how to build them for a reasonable price yet, because they haven't made the adjustment. European and Japanese legacy car makers have been caught flat-footed, and they are spinning as hard as they can to avoid losing customers.

 

Tesla and some of the Chinese manufacturers are producing great cars which are coming down in price. 

 

If you have an employer who offers salary sacrificing, there are big advantages to buying an EV (if new, or first purchased after 1 July 2023, from memory), because if you take a novated lease, your payments come off your pre-tax income, thus reducing your taxable income; no FBT is payable.

 

 

 

 

[rantan]

20 minutes ago, Orpheus said:

Orpheus bursting in on this topic after many years away from stereo.net.au, hello to anyone who remembers me (I remember plenty of the contributors to this one). 

 

I definitely remember you (Cameron?) a former moderator and an awesome contributor in the past and hopefully, into the future.

 

As for EVs, some of them look great to me, especially the Hyundai Ionique which I would buy in a heartbeat if budget would allow, but realistically it isn't going to happen.

 

 

Welcome back.

[Orpheus]

3 minutes ago, rantan said:

 

I definitely remember you (Cameron?) a former moderator and an awesome contributor in the past and hopefully, into the future.

 

As for EVs, some of them look great to me, especially the Hyundai Ionique which I would buy in a heartbeat if budget would allow, but realistically it isn't going to happen.

 

 

Welcome back.

Thank you for the welcome back!

 

And yes, I remember you too. At the moment, the only EV on a really tight budget is an older Nissan Leaf which would be fine for city driving, but certainly not exciting.

[rantan]

11 minutes ago, Orpheus said:

on a really tight budget is an older Nissan Leaf which would be fine for city driving, but certainly not exciting

Yes, unfortunately something like that just does not appeal.

I will stay with my Cerato GT until (or if ) I can afford the Ionique

[Orpheus]

1 minute ago, rantan said:

Yes, unfortunately something like that just does not appeal.

I will stay with my Cerato GT until (or if ) I can afford the Ionique

You already have a great car! I think EVs will come down in price quite significantly over the next couple of years, used ones too.

[Keith_W]

1 hour ago, Orpheus said:

Orpheus bursting in on this topic after many years away from stereo.net.au, hello to anyone who remembers me (I remember plenty of the contributors to this one). 

 

Hello Cameron! Still have the stacked quads?

[Orpheus]

2 hours ago, Keith_W said:

 

Hello Cameron! Still have the stacked quads?

Hello, Keith! No, not any more. Martin Logan Renaissance speakers (from memory), which I’ve rarely listened to, Quad ESL2905s, Audio Physic Avanteras, which I do listen to, mainly because they are in the living room, and Audio Physic Virgo 25s. A lot of gear, most of which does not get the attention it deserves.

[Ihearmusic]

On 10/02/2024 at 1:09 PM, Orpheus said:

Orpheus bursting in on this topic after many years away from stereo.net.au, hello to anyone who remembers me (I remember plenty of the contributors to this one). 

 

I've just bought a Tesla Model 3 Highland dual motor, had it for a week, and it is the most enjoyable and easy to drive car I have ever driven. I have not had a problem with operating it through the screen. The haptic buttons for indicators are no trouble, just slightly tricky in roundabouts.

 

I would suggest taking one for a test drive, it might change a few minds. The acceleration is crazy, it is also quiet, the sound system is good, and the handling is good too, it's feels like a premium car, the previous version, not so much.

 

I have bought it even though I can't charge at home. I have already topped up a couple of times while at the shopping centre, both times using free chargers.

 

There are a few myths here; first, that somehow hydrogen will be the answer for cars. No. It is a much less efficient means of powering a vehicle than batteries. Second, that the European manufacturers "don't see EVs as the future". No. They know it is the future, they just haven't figured out how to build them for a reasonable price yet, because they haven't made the adjustment. European and Japanese legacy car makers have been caught flat-footed, and they are spinning as hard as they can to avoid losing customers.

 

Tesla and some of the Chinese manufacturers are producing great cars which are coming down in price. 

 

If you have an employer who offers salary sacrificing, there are big advantages to buying an EV (if new, or first purchased after 1 July 2023, from memory), because if you take a novated lease, your payments come off your pre-tax income, thus reducing your taxable income; no FBT is payable.

 

 

 

 

 

I am not sure if you are staying abreast with current developments but EV sales are dropping in large parts of the world.

Car dealers here in WA don't like to buy 2nd hand EVs because they are hard to sell.

Toyota cannot keep up with building enough hybrid cars because the demand is so great.

The reason Europeans cannot compete with the Chinese manufacturers is because the Chinese Government is heavily subsidizing these companies.

We have not even touched on the problem of recycling the EV batteries.

No, I say the current technology of EVs is not the way to go. Maybe someday in the future but not now.

[RockandorRoll]

Not at all. I think Harry Metcalfe just went through the same thing. Different costs, but some of the arguments are the same.

 

[JB82]

I love my Chinese MG4 EV, very impressive car. It replaced a Holden VF Calais for daily driving, easily bettering it, but won’t replace my other ICE vehicles which serve other purposes.