Jventer Posted December 21, 2023 Posted December 21, 2023 5 minutes ago, Snoopy8 said: Howver, once you start looking at a switch, a clock and optical fibre, than you start getting complicated. Last but not least, what are you prepared to spend, and how much time do you want to explore this rabbit warren? Yep - it all comes back to the budget. @Rawlit I have heard wonderful stuff, lots of which I cannot explain why it makes a difference, anyway it is a journey enjoy the ride 2
Assisi Posted December 21, 2023 Posted December 21, 2023 52 minutes ago, Rawlit said: Hello all, I'm just starting my journey into streaming coming from a vinyl setup What's your recommendation to keep my setup to a minimum? I don't like having too many boxes and cables. Start simple and build over time. I would not initially get fussed about a separate clock. I have several switches yet no separate clock. Focus on the switch, cables and maybe power. With switches there are many choices. To some extent it is about how much you want to spend. It is all about no free lunch. Quality has a price. John 2
Assisi Posted December 27, 2023 Posted December 27, 2023 Previously in threads there are comments that to me indicate that in the context of the outcome of digital source, some posters consider that it is all about the treatment of potential jitter in the DAC. In my case I am not sure that any improvement is entirely attributable to the DAC treatment only. To me an important aspect of the success with streaming is all about the overall digital network synergy inconjuction with the DAC. Until recently I had had the same DAC for a few years. During that time, I tried and used various switches and cables power supplies etc in the network upstream from the DAC. I had settled on the current setup for a while. On occasions with various components and configurations, I perceived benefits. It is probable during time the DAC did not contribute to any of the benefits with its treatment of the improved quality of the incoming digital signal noise wise from the network. It is also possible though that the DAC treatment benefited from the quality of the network contribution. I do not know whether it was just the network setup or a bit of both aspects that prevailed. I now have upgraded to a Weiss HELIOS DAC. With the new DAC there is a definite listening benefit even with 4 months of settling. Maybe still small improvements happening. Now it is the other way around. With the new DAC the network configuration is the same as it has been for a while. I do not know whether the enhanced SQ listening benefit is due entirely to the new DAC or how the upstream digital file is handled by the DAC or once again a bit of both. I was overly pleased with outcome from both the network as was with the new DAC. I am continually curious about the "what ifs". I like to fiddle from time to time. I also prefer to not make too many changes often. In the context of system synergy and based upon a couple comments from other posters, I started to wonder what would be the outcome if I made some changes to the network. I have found that more than one switch is better than just one. The order is important. Some things just work better with some more so than with others. Speakers with various amps for example. Tuning a system with cables. A topic I do not know anything about – Tube Rolling. I decided to disconnect some switches. Leaving only 2x Waversa and 2x Nordost connected. With the new configuration there was a small but noticeable improvement SQ wise. Improved dynamics, smoother and more musically real. The outcome was both pleasing and annoying. Had I gone too far with network as it was? I have yet to be able to power the both Nordost with LPSs. I intend to progressively reconnect the disconnected switches and maybe make changes to the order to find out whether there is more blood in the stone. When very subtle distinctions are being listened for, it takes a reasonably long listen over time to identify whether there are benefits and or changes. Work in progress. John 6
Assisi Posted January 11 Posted January 11 On 27/12/2023 at 3:39 PM, Assisi said: I have yet to be able to power the both Nordost with LPSs I received just one cable a few days ago to connect one Nordost Qnet to a Weiss 101 LPS. I connected it to the last Nordost as I considered it to be the most important. Initially I was pleased but had expected more based on what I had read about the benefit of LPS supply to the Switch. The outcome was increased transparency, beautifully musical and very engaging. More real. It is now three days and I turned the system on tonight. Immediately it was subtly and pleasingly better. The cable has started to settle. All the previous qualities plus more impact, bigger stronger more full sound stage. Just wonderful music that I never imagined I could achieve in my system. I do wonder whether there will be more to come with the second Qnet powered by a LPS. To be able to power the other Nordost with a LPS will require more than just another cable. Work in progress. I cannot use the Weiss 101 as it does not have enough output to power two Qnets plus the second connection powers the Melco Switch. John 4
Assisi Posted February 3 Posted February 3 This is a shortened version of where I am now with my networking journey since the above post. The long version could go on for a few pages @Stereophilus Visited me last Sunday. An enjoyable if slightly confronting afternoon with outcomes Vs expecatations. John brought with him his Waversa HUB V3 and a Waversa Noise Isolator Reference Pro. I have a Waversa Noise Isolator Reference. I was interested in listening to the impact of the larger Noise Isolator. I was not overly interested in the HUB as I already have both a Waversa Core and WRouter. I thought the Hub would be of little or no benefit for me. I was definitely wrong with my expectation. As of Sunday the only switches active in my network were the two Waversas above and two Nordost Qnets. The Paul Pang, Melco and SOtm are not connected. It is possible that one QNet is enough. The playback with the two Waversas and just one QNet was relatively impressive. The Qnet was taken out and replaced with the HUB. Also impressive. Very interesting. Both provided a benefit albeit slightly different. We swapped the Isolators. The Reference Pro was a small step up but probably not enough to get me to consider changing. It seems that others consider that a HUB an Isolator have beneficial synergistic relationship. So maybe mine with the HUB is enough. I have read that the HUB and the Isolators deal with different interference. So there can be a mutual benefit with the two. The HUB experience on Sunday gave me an itch. Fortuitously my System Curator was to visit last Thursday and he had a HUB in stock except no Batteries. A visit to the local vape shop which I had never visited previously had the required Samsung Batteries. They are used in Vape apparatus. No vapour comes out of the HUB. The HUB is now installed. Very pleased. Waversa have some software in some of their products that in my words enhances component connectivity or recognition. I now have the WRouter sound output set to be connected to the HUB. I also have tried with one QNet connected and two QNets connected. I cannot make up my mind as to which is the better arrangement. Also the speed of the four ports on the HUB can be set either 100Mgb or 1 Gigabit and both speeds can be full or half duplex. I have yet to try the variations. So far only half duplex 100Mgb. I ahve to say that the HUB manual is not overly helpful. I have a playlist based on tracks that include moments of definite emotional listening pleasure for me. The interest thing is with the above changes with some tracks the emotional experience is enhanced. I think Wow. Some tracks are less interesting as I would have expected more. Maybe because there is nothing more to be revealed with the treatment of interference. John 11
Gryffles Posted February 11 Posted February 11 Not much has changed in regards to my Ethernet network. For perspective this is how it looked until this morning: Netcomm Router, Melco Cable, Sotm iso cat 6 filter, atlas Mavros cable, Ediscreation silent switch ocxo, atlas Mavros cable, Wavers ext-1, generic cable that came with Waversa, Antipodes K22 I had the chance to demo the Waversa Ext-2 lan isolator this morning and frankly I was blown away. A meaningful increase in system enjoyment across the board and without any downsides I can detect. Not very often does a product deliver in such a way and for not a huge amount of money. I did also try the Atlas Grun Mains Adaptor where previously I had been grounding the 2x Atlas Mavros LAN cables to the grounding post on my switch. Again, a definite improvement to be had. Leading up to today I was very happy with my system and not feeling like I needed to change or fix things. I purchased both these products and will find the Ext-1 a new home to help offset the cost Thanks to Terry from GC Hifi for dropping by on a Sunday. 6
Snoopy8 Posted February 11 Author Posted February 11 15 minutes ago, Gryffles said: I had the chance to demo the Waversa Ext-2 lan isolator this morning and frankly I was blown away. A meaningful increase in system enjoyment across the board and without any downsides I can detect. Not very often does a product deliver in such a way and for not a huge amount of money. Where should the Waversa EXT-2 sit in the chain to be most effective? And did @TerryO tempt you with the Reference and Reference+
Gryffles Posted February 11 Posted February 11 (edited) 24 minutes ago, Snoopy8 said: Where should the Waversa EXT-2 sit in the chain to be most effective? And did @TerryO tempt you with the Reference and Reference+ There are no rules however I have it closest to the Antipodes. Nah, he knows they’re outta my league! Edited February 11 by Gryffles 1
Assisi Posted February 11 Posted February 11 2 hours ago, Gryffles said: There are no rules however I have it closest to the Antipodes. That is where I would have it John 2
Assisi Posted February 11 Posted February 11 2 hours ago, Assisi said: That is where I would have it John Further to my post above it is important for me to say that it is all about putting the best last before the Streamer or DAC. The Isolator is to me like putting the condiments on good food. It is the same with cables. Best last. With switches it is a case of trying various combinations and working out what each person thinks is best in their situation. It is important but can often be difficult to distinguish between what is different and what is beneficial. John 3
TerryO Posted February 11 Posted February 11 (edited) 10 hours ago, Snoopy8 said: Where should the Waversa EXT-2 sit in the chain to be most effective? And did @TerryO tempt you with the Reference and Reference+ Nope I was never going down the Reference path with Ben and for good reason, Bang for dollar the Waversa EXT2 is seriously a no brainer, the improvement in SQ it delivers is striking, the gains in sound stage, separation, decay and tonality is impressive to say the least. In all seriousness everytime I have demoed one of the new EXT2 models at some ones place it never comes home with me. As Ben mentioned, the other improvement that can be had for anyone who owns Atlas Grun cables, be they RCA’s, LAN, USB or Speaker cables is the recently released Grun plug. This long awaited Grun Plug transforms Atlas Grun model cables, whether they be Mavros or right up to Asimi, to a whole nother level in SQ and is easily the best $250 one can spend if you are an Atlas owner. I like Ben had earthed the Grun cables directly to the components and in theory that should work well, but in reality it doesn’t come close to comparing to the plug, believe it or not when I first heard the improvement the Grun plug delivered it made me quite angry, because it should have been done for Australian plugs much earlier, anyway it’s also a no brainer. cheers, Terry Edited February 11 by TerryO 3
Snoopy8 Posted February 11 Author Posted February 11 16 hours ago, Gryffles said: I had the chance to demo the Waversa Ext-2 lan isolator this morning and frankly I was blown away. Curious to know whether you have tried 2 Ext-1 together? They are on sale in USA for USD 550.
Gryffles Posted February 11 Posted February 11 (edited) 55 minutes ago, Snoopy8 said: Curious to know whether you have tried 2 Ext-1 together? They are on sale in USA for USD 550. Vey briefly tried the Ext-1 and Ext-2, with the Ext-2 being before the switch, and its effect was diminished. I dont think 2x ext-1 equals an ext-2. I know soneone whos selling an EXt-1 lol Edited February 11 by Gryffles 1
TerryO Posted February 12 Posted February 12 (edited) 4 hours ago, Snoopy8 said: Curious to know whether you have tried 2 Ext-1 together? They are on sale in USA for USD 550. The EXT1 is impressive in what it delivers in improvements in SQ and it is a very good entrance point for a relatively small amount of money, especially now they are only available secondhand. I’d happily recommend one to anyone wanting to dip a toe into LAN filtering. Is it close to an EXT2 in what it delivers? No it’s not, but it’s available for a lot less, same goes for the EXT2 and the Reference and then the Reference and the Referenece+. Each step up is impressive but so are the costs to go up to the next level. Personally I think most people if they have not heard a EXT2 would be very happy with the EXT1. It provides a serious improvement over not having a inline filter. Regarding daisy chaining the Waversa filters at any level I have tried two EXT2’s together and two Reference+’s and a Reference with a Reference+. Would I recommend doing this and did I hear SQ improvements? …. No, in fact in most cases quite the opposite, especially with two Reference+’s. That was way to much of a good thing and didn’t sound good. As I have mentioned previously, the real secret sauce with any of the Waversa LAN filters is not two of them, it is the SmartHub and one of their LAN filters, together they deliver a much greater SQ improvement than the sum of their individual parts. Seriously it is hard to imagine how much of a SQ improvement a SmartHub and any of the Waversa LAN filters deliver if you have not heard them in a system. When it comes to Streaming it is game changing. As Ben also noticed even with a EXT1, but especially with the EXT2, and a decent LAN cable these filters deliver a higher SQ than playing music files from a server. Yes I’m saying Streaming can be with the good filtration way better than playing stored music. To me that is a game changer. cheers, Terry Edited February 12 by TerryO 2
Snoopy8 Posted February 12 Author Posted February 12 27 minutes ago, TerryO said: Seriously it is hard to imagine how much of a SQ improvement a SmartHub and any of the Waversa LAN filters deliver if you have not heard them in a system. So, SmartHub + EXT2 ($6k) is better than EXT2 ($2k) alone. SmartHub + Ref ($10.5K) and SmartHub + Ref+ ($20.5K) are even better. You also sell the Nordost QNet ($4.6k) which I assume is better than EXT2? The lesson here is the more you spend, the better. But where does it stop? There is no longer a "value" option because we are talking of thousands of dollars here. A sad state of affairs for someone starting out or wants to upgrade with limited budget... 1
Gryffles Posted February 12 Posted February 12 1 hour ago, TerryO said: As Ben also noticed even with a EXT1, but especially with the EXT2, and a decent LAN cable these filters deliver a higher SQ than playing music files from a server This is correct. I’ve compared steaming vs stored on hard drive and in my system streaming wins. 1
Gryffles Posted February 12 Posted February 12 4 minutes ago, Snoopy8 said: The lesson here is the more you spend, the better. But where does it stop? There is no longer a "value" option because we are talking of thousands of dollars here. A sad state of affairs for someone starting out or wants to upgrade with limited budget... Not really as you buy what suits your system and what you can afford. You start and stop wherever suits……or not at all. My system is mature now and it’s just small improvements to be had as Ive reached my ceiling and it sounds very good. I paid 1k for a used ext-1 and I’ll sell it to help pay for the ext-2. Less than 1k difference is ok for me. 3
Assisi Posted February 12 Posted February 12 22 minutes ago, Snoopy8 said: So, SmartHub + EXT2 ($6k) is better than EXT2 ($2k) alone. SmartHub + Ref ($10.5K) and SmartHub + Ref+ ($20.5K) are even better. You also sell the Nordost QNet ($4.6k) which I assume is better than EXT2? The lesson here is the more you spend, the better. But where does it stop? There is no longer a "value" option because we are talking of thousands of dollars here. A sad state of affairs for someone starting out or wants to upgrade with limited budget... Hi Snoops, There is an important proviso. It is all about affordability and the relative quality of the rest of a person’s setup including their network. It is not advisable for a person starting out or with a low-level setup to purchase an expensive isolator and just expect a miracle outcome. It is a case of developing and trying various things over time and as funds permit. I suggest that an isolator may be the last ingredient in the setup after a person is pleased with everything else in their setup. It is not a case of just spending more. It is also it is about making choices relative with what works with what and the level of a Network. Synergy!! Read my Post Above from Feb 3rd. John 5
PKay Posted February 12 Posted February 12 1 hour ago, Snoopy8 said: So, SmartHub + EXT2 ($6k) is better than EXT2 ($2k) alone. SmartHub + Ref ($10.5K) and SmartHub + Ref+ ($20.5K) are even better. You also sell the Nordost QNet ($4.6k) which I assume is better than EXT2? The lesson here is the more you spend, the better. But where does it stop? There is no longer a "value" option because we are talking of thousands of dollars here. A sad state of affairs for someone starting out or wants to upgrade with limited budget... I think a good server Volumio based and a good dac can still sound awesome. People shouldn’t be daunted by thinking they need all these extras (in some cases a lot of money for small improvements). It all comes down to budget and what sound level that you can be happy with. My DAC is a Giesler Gross and I have a repurposed old Antipodes Ref server running Volumio which costs less than some of the filters available. IMHO it sounds great. 3 1
frednork Posted February 12 Posted February 12 1 hour ago, Snoopy8 said: The lesson here is the more you spend, the better. But where does it stop? There is no longer a "value" option because we are talking of thousands of dollars here. A sad state of affairs for someone starting out or wants to upgrade with limited budget... I think value has to be viewed within the context of the system you are applying it to. I havent seen people suggesting that 10k of network gear would benefit someone with an entry level system. I have seen many posts saying 10k of network gear is nothing but jewellery and has no audible benefit. All points of view are well represented. There are always value options, as, if you want to listen to music, you dont need to spend a lot. However if you want to approach a very high level of reproduction it will cost more. If you want high end wine, cars, houses, or hookers. You will need to pay more. Access to funds does tend to dictate how far one can go with these sorts of things in life. Hifi is no different. We are not talking access to food and water here. It is a luxury item. Ironically just yesterday you would have been reminded that the person below viewed some of your own purchasing choices similarly ie with a high level of doubt as to the value given. On 10/02/2024 at 11:50 PM, Silent Screamer said: I looked at your system hyperlinked in your signature and you have an unusual setup. I noticed you had an expensive USB reclocker, how much difference is this really going to make? Would want to be earth shattering for the money being asked. I have the same reclocker so I am just as silly as you from his perspective. Nonetheless his comments are fair enough and I can understand his view, as are your comments above, from your perspective. and so on it goes. 8
Gryffles Posted February 12 Posted February 12 1 hour ago, PKay said: People shouldn’t be daunted by thinking they need all these extras (in some cases a lot of money for small improvements). It all comes down to budget and what sound level that you can be happy with. You are right, it shoudn't be daunting at all as this is a hobby that should be enjoyable. If I couldn't demo at home then it's very likely I wouldn't have purchased an EXT-2 as its a risky business as we all know! Btw talking about upgrading, you should buy my Lampizator Big 4 hahaha. 1
PKay Posted February 12 Posted February 12 (edited) 29 minutes ago, Gryffles said: You are right, it shoudn't be daunting at all as this is a hobby that should be enjoyable. If I couldn't demo at home then it's very likely I wouldn't have purchased an EXT-2 as its a risky business as we all know! Btw talking about upgrading, you should buy my Lampizator Big 4 hahaha. If I was in QLD I would audition for sure. I am very close to buying an Audial S5 Edited February 12 by PKay 1
TerryO Posted February 12 Posted February 12 (edited) 2 hours ago, PKay said: I think a good server Volumio based and a good dac can still sound awesome. People shouldn’t be daunted by thinking they need all these extras (in some cases a lot of money for small improvements). It all comes down to budget and what sound level that you can be happy with. My DAC is a Giesler Gross and I have a repurposed old Antipodes Ref server running Volumio which costs less than some of the filters available. IMHO it sounds great. If someone is more than happy with their system then that is all that is important and whether they are looking for upgrades or not is up to them. In my opinion Filters are not a necessity for the majority of people who do streaming, especially people who are new to this hobby or new to Streaming and are starting off at entry level, which is where most of us start on this journey. Where they make a real difference is especially for those who have focussed on Streaming and have a higher level of Streamer and who are chasing SQ improvements without spending absolute fortunes on the top end Streamers. Having said that top end Streamers do definitely also benefit from top end filters and that is where the top end filters work and make sense. I have tried the Reference+ filter with what many would consider is a good affordable entry level Streamer and the improvement wasn’t anywhere near worth the investment, but that is where a EXT1 or 2 would be a much better option if someone wants to go down that path. This topic is about subjective experiences with Ethernet so offering one’s own subjective experiences one way or the other is what this topic is all about. How others value those experiences is up to them. cheers, Terry Edited February 12 by TerryO
Gryffles Posted February 12 Posted February 12 23 minutes ago, PKay said: If I was in QLD I would audition for sure. I am very close to buying an Audial S5 Welcome to drop by if ever you're up these ways 1
PKay Posted February 12 Posted February 12 1 minute ago, Gryffles said: Welcome to drop by if ever you're up these ways Thank you and likewise.
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