aussievintage Posted November 18, 2024 Posted November 18, 2024 1 minute ago, andyr said: I believe it's bcoz Herr Lucaschek considers Benz wood-bodies sound their best when loaded very high - so he made the Zin of the PP1-T9 22K. (This wouldn't suit many other carts.) Well, we both know how easy that is to correct with a couple resistors. Interesting how "high load" as you use it, is actually a low load on the cartridge. In normal electricity, a high load is one that draws more current.
Be Quiet...Listen Posted November 18, 2024 Posted November 18, 2024 Hey, if it aurally works in practice for him in the totality of his system and room, it ultimately doesn't matter a thing what the numbers and science says! 1
Guest Moon 600i V2 Posted November 18, 2024 Posted November 18, 2024 1 hour ago, aussievintage said: Wondering why. If has strict adherence to RIAA why would it matter which cartridge you use with it? The loading is high at 22k so it will make some carts sound bright. The RIAA is not an issue at +- .5dB.
aussievintage Posted November 18, 2024 Posted November 18, 2024 2 minutes ago, Moon 600i V2 said: The loading is high at 22k so it will make some carts sound bright. As I mentioned, a simple loading resistor for each channel will bring that down.
Guest Moon 600i V2 Posted November 18, 2024 Posted November 18, 2024 2 minutes ago, aussievintage said: As I mentioned, a simple loading resistor for each channel will bring that down. Or, I could match the cartridge to the loading.
aussievintage Posted November 19, 2024 Posted November 19, 2024 Just now, Moon 600i V2 said: Or, I could match the cartridge to the loading. Sure, but a resistor is very cheap. Plus a different cart, properly loaded into that same preamp, might sound even better.
Guest Moon 600i V2 Posted November 19, 2024 Posted November 19, 2024 8 minutes ago, aussievintage said: Sure, but a resistor is very cheap. Plus a different cart, properly loaded into that same preamp, might sound even better. Thanks for trying to help me out but I'll follow my own instincts on this. Not going to Rube Goldberg inside this puppy with my eyes being what they are . If I have to, I'll just be happy with what I have and not go on an endless quest for "possibilities". No disrespect intended.
aussievintage Posted November 19, 2024 Posted November 19, 2024 18 minutes ago, Moon 600i V2 said: Thanks for trying to help me out but I'll follow my own instincts on this. Not going to Rube Goldberg inside this puppy with my eyes being what they are . If I have to, I'll just be happy with what I have and not go on an endless quest for "possibilities". No disrespect intended. No problems whatsoever. Just one final thing - you can add the loading externally and not have to touch that fine machine.
andyr Posted November 19, 2024 Posted November 19, 2024 47 minutes ago, Moon 600i V2 said: Or, I could match the cartridge to the loading. My view is that you won't find many LOMCs that sound their best at 22K. However, a HOMC - or a Grado Statement - probably would (sound great). Re. av's suggestion of external resistors to lower the default 22K, here: 14 minutes ago, aussievintage said: you can add the loading externally and not have to touch that fine machine. ... you simply need: a pair of RCA 'T' or 'U' connectors plus a pair of 'loaded' RCA plugs. The 'T' or 'U' connectors go into the input sockets of the PP1-T9, then on each connector ... you plug in the phono cable, plus a loaded plug. For your Glider (coil impedance 12 ohms) I would suggest a 1200ohm resistor in each load plug. (I used to use 3300ohm load plugs -parallelling the phono stage default 47K resistor - for my Benz LP.) 1
e83cc Posted November 20, 2024 Posted November 20, 2024 On 19/11/2024 at 12:51 PM, Moon 600i V2 said: The loading is high at 22k so it will make some carts sound bright. No it won't. The high frequency rise is well out of the audio band. If you have experienced a brightness from higher loading, then your phono stage has problems. I have been running MC's into 47k for years, no brightness.
e83cc Posted November 20, 2024 Posted November 20, 2024 On 19/11/2024 at 1:56 PM, andyr said: ... you simply need: a pair of RCA 'T' or 'U' connectors plus a pair of 'loaded' RCA plugs. The 'T' or 'U' connectors go into the input sockets of the PP1-T9, then on each connector ... you plug in the phono cable, plus a loaded plug. These are very poor solutions. Both options add significant noise. In a good system the degradation in sound quality will far outway any perceived benefits. You are better off soldering loading resistors.
andyr Posted November 20, 2024 Posted November 20, 2024 1 minute ago, e83cc said: You are better off soldering loading resistors. Sure ... but you seem not to have read through all of this thread. Jim said that he does not want to solder any resistors inside his PP1-T9.
aussievintage Posted November 20, 2024 Posted November 20, 2024 12 minutes ago, e83cc said: No it won't. The high frequency rise is well out of the audio band. If you have experienced a brightness from higher loading, then your phono stage has problems. I have been running MC's into 47k for years, no brightness. Interesting. It is often said, these days, that MC are quite immune to loading changes, but then, despite that, there are still extensive discussions (including here) about the vagueries of changing it.
e83cc Posted November 20, 2024 Posted November 20, 2024 6 minutes ago, andyr said: Sure ... but you seem not to have read through all of this thread. Jim said that he does not want to solder any resistors inside his PP1-T9. No I've read the thread. I responded to your post - that's why I quoted it. With regards to the PP1-T9 I'm surprised at the 22k loading, in that Benz originally ran these with a 47k loading as standard. I would not recommend any additional loading in that scenario.
e83cc Posted November 20, 2024 Posted November 20, 2024 4 minutes ago, aussievintage said: Interesting. It is often said, these days, that MC are quite immune to loading changes, but then, despite that, there are still extensive discussions (including here) about the vagueries of changing it. Yes - the point is changing loading does not alter the frequency response of the cartridge, what folk are hearing is the impact of an altered tuned circuit on the ensuing phono stage. If a phono stage has been designed well, you should hear no difference. JCarr ( Lyra ) and Ralph Karstens ( Atamsphere designer ) have written extensively on this on other forums What's Best and Audiogon. 1
andyr Posted November 20, 2024 Posted November 20, 2024 2 minutes ago, e83cc said: With regards to the PP1-T9 I'm surprised at the 22k loading, in that Benz originally ran these with a 47k loading as standard. I would not recommend any additional loading in that scenario. Yes, Herr Lucaschek did like 47k. I would've thought the PP1-T9 would've offered 47k ... but when I found the specs, it said 22k. I tried my Benz LP at 47k - and found the bass on my Bob Marley LPs was waay too loose. Going down to 3.3k tightened up the bass - so that's what I ran it at (100x coil impedance).
e83cc Posted November 20, 2024 Posted November 20, 2024 2 minutes ago, andyr said: I tried my Benz LP at 47k - and found the bass on my Bob Marley LPs was waay too loose. Going down to 3.3k tightened up the bass - so that's what I ran it at (100x coil impedance). Your experience is only relevant to your specific phono stage and in the context of your system.
andyr Posted November 20, 2024 Posted November 20, 2024 3 minutes ago, e83cc said: Your experience is only relevant ... in the context of your system. Why is the rest of my system relevant if Ralpk K and Jonathan C say it's only to do with the phono stage circuit? 5 minutes ago, e83cc said: Your experience is only relevant to your specific phono stage. I had the same result with several phono stages. But no - none of them were RK or JCarr designed.
colinm1 Posted November 20, 2024 Posted November 20, 2024 6 minutes ago, e83cc said: Your experience is only relevant to your specific phono stage and in the context of your system. I run an Ayre phono stage , and found a 3.3k or there about a much better loading in my system when running my Benz wood , I did find I had to address my phono cable also , that also varied the sound , I stuck with some discovery internal arm cable ,to do the job to the Ayre ,
e83cc Posted November 20, 2024 Posted November 20, 2024 2 minutes ago, andyr said: Why is the rest of my system relevant if Ralpk K and Jonathan C say it's only to do with the phono stage circuit? Not sure how you listen, but in most systems the phono stage feeds the line stage which drives the power amp that powers the speakers. Normally I sit in a chair and I can hear any changes upstream. A "loose bottom end" on a Bob Marley album is likely to be perceived differently on say Proac Tablettes, than say Martin Logan CLS, Acapella Triolon system or Infinity Reference System V - all of which I've listened to quite extensively and each of which sound quite different, particularly in bottom end "looseness". That's why folk often have different opinions on the same cartridge, its all about context. 11 minutes ago, andyr said: I had the same result with several phono stages. But no - none of them were RK or JCarr designed. Means nothing, which phono stages, what system ?
Be Quiet...Listen Posted November 20, 2024 Posted November 20, 2024 Where’s @cafe latte when you need him? He’s the resident expert on all of this.
andyr Posted November 20, 2024 Posted November 20, 2024 1 hour ago, e83cc said: A "loose bottom end" on a Bob Marley album is likely to be perceived differently on say Proac Tablettes, than say Martin Logan CLS, Acapella Triolon system or Infinity Reference System V - all of which I've listened to quite extensively and each of which sound quite different, particularly in bottom end "looseness". Means nothing, which phono stages, what system ? All I will say about my system, Nick, is that at that stage I had Magnepan IIIAs - 3-way actively driven by ss amps. Maggies can never be described as having "loose bass".
e83cc Posted November 20, 2024 Posted November 20, 2024 2 hours ago, andyr said: All I will say about my system, Nick, is that at that stage I had Magnepan IIIAs - 3-way actively driven by ss amps. Maggies can never be described as having "loose bass". Andy - I have no view on your system. I'm simply pointing out that loading is both dependent on phono stage and can be very subjective - everyone hears differently. I used to distribute Benz many years ago and I have seen well known audio reviewers pass the same cartridge around and arrive at completely different views on the optimum loading - from 300ohms through to 47k for the Benz. As an aside the Benz have gone through many changes over the years, so one needs to specify which Benz they are talking about when discussing loading. My recommendation for anyone trying to optimise a mc is to start at 47k and work your way down and back up. In my experience there can often be more gains from careful set up, dialling in VTA, rechecking alignment and anti-skate than loading. The most common mistake I see are folk who use VTA as a tone control, when in fact there is only one correct VTA position for a given record, and it is at maximum stage and harmonic integrity, VTA adjustment has no place for tweaking highs and lows. The second most common set up error is anti skate - most folk dial in too much, I very seldom see a cartridge with a straight cantilever after a year of running.
andyr Posted November 20, 2024 Posted November 20, 2024 Wow! As you've covered a lot of ground with our latest post ... I will need to respond to a number of your points: 34 minutes ago, e83cc said: Andy - I have no view on your system. Indeed - but the only reason I could think of why you bothered to mention spkrs you've owned/listened to (Proac Tablettes, Martin Logan CLS, Acapella Triolon system, Infinity Reference System V) ... was to suggest the reason I suffered 'loose bass' on my reggae records when I ran my Benz LP at 47k ... was because I must've had bass-boomy spkrs. So I mentioned that I owned Maggies ... as - providing they are they are at least 1.5m off the front wall - Maggies are the least "bass-boomy" spkrs on the planet! 34 minutes ago, e83cc said: I'm simply pointing out that loading is both dependent on phono stage and can be very subjective - everyone hears differently. I used to distribute Benz many years ago and I have seen well known audio reviewers pass the same cartridge around and arrive at completely different views on the optimum loading - from 300ohms through to 47k for the Benz. As an aside the Benz have gone through many changes over the years, so one needs to specify which Benz they are talking about when discussing loading. I did specify the Benz I was talking about - the (original!) Benz LP! 34 minutes ago, e83cc said: My recommendation for anyone trying to optimise a mc is to start at 47k and work your way down and back up. Agreed ... which - sacre bleu! - is exactly what I did! 34 minutes ago, e83cc said: In my experience there can often be more gains from careful set up, dialling in VTA, rechecking alignment and anti-skate than loading. The most common mistake I see are folk who use VTA as a tone control, when in fact there is only one correct VTA position for a given record, and it is at maximum stage and harmonic integrity, VTA adjustment has no place for tweaking highs and lows. The second most common set up error is anti skate - most folk dial in too much, I very seldom see a cartridge with a straight cantilever after a year of running. Agree with you on all points. I follow the late, great Allen Wright's wisdom - as specified in his white paper on cart setup.
e83cc Posted November 20, 2024 Posted November 20, 2024 3 minutes ago, andyr said: but the only reason I could think of why you bothered to mention spkrs you've owned/listened to (Proac Tablettes, Martin Logan CLS, Acapella Triolon system, Infinity Reference System V) ... was to suggest the reason I suffered 'loose bass' on my reggae records when I ran my Benz LP at 47k ... was because I must've had bass-boomy spkrs. You've misread - my point was that anyones view on bottom end performance of any given cartridge is going to be affected by their system and in particular the speakers and room. Thats why context matters. I've seen audio systems moved from one room to another and you would never guess they were even the same system. Neutral bass in a domestic environment is almost a misnomer.
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