frednork Posted October 25, 2023 Posted October 25, 2023 13 hours ago, pass the bass said: I wonder if DSP room correction and the array of acoustic treatment panels have lifted hi-fi up another gear - all good to hear (and see with the latter). Does anyone know if any of the rooms were dsp'd?
Douglas HiFi Posted October 25, 2023 Posted October 25, 2023 1 minute ago, frednork said: Does anyone know if any of the rooms were dsp'd? The NAD + Dali was Dirac'ed The Magnepan Room with REL subs had a DBX DSP unit... The Wisdom, Barco, Trinnov room was (of course) DSP'ed I cannot recall if any other rooms were or not.... 2
Keith_W Posted October 25, 2023 Posted October 25, 2023 8 minutes ago, frednork said: Does anyone know if any of the rooms were dsp'd? DEQX (obviously), and the Magnepan room both had DSP. Magnepan was using DBX. There may be others. 1
March Audio Posted October 25, 2023 Posted October 25, 2023 58 minutes ago, frednork said: Does anyone know if any of the rooms were dsp'd? We did latterly add some dsp to tame the room modes, but were quite conservative with it as this sort of correction will only be correct for one listening point in the room. 4
cazzesman Posted October 25, 2023 Posted October 25, 2023 4 hours ago, Douglas HiFi said: The NAD + Dali was Dirac'ed The Magnepan Room with REL subs had a DBX DSP unit... The Wisdom, Barco, Trinnov room was (of course) DSP'ed I cannot recall if any other rooms were or not.... On Friday arvo I was in the NAD room for 40 minutes or so. The presenter was actually turning DL on and off to show what it could do. During one track DL got turned on and the speakers had abit of a conniption, so it got turned off again. For most of my 40 minutes I would say it was off. The sound was still pretty good IMHO. Regards Cazzesman
Douglas HiFi Posted October 25, 2023 Posted October 25, 2023 38 minutes ago, cazzesman said: On Friday arvo I was in the NAD room for 40 minutes or so. The presenter was actually turning DL on and off to show what it could do. During one track DL got turned on and the speakers had abit of a conniption, so it got turned off again. For most of my 40 minutes I would say it was off. The sound was still pretty good IMHO. Regards Cazzesman They did a proper Dirac on Friday evening (after the show had closed for the day).. So the correct Dirac measurement result was only active to hear on Saturday and Sunday (or so I am informed) I hope you perhaps got a chance to go back and hear them on the weekend. 1
cazzesman Posted October 25, 2023 Posted October 25, 2023 Thanks Douglas. I have DL at home in a MiniDSP Studio. Don’t know how we ever lived without it Regards Cazzesman
Stereophilus Posted October 25, 2023 Posted October 25, 2023 7 hours ago, frednork said: Does anyone know if any of the rooms were dsp'd? The Dutch and Dutch 8c were using Dirac I think. The Hulgich / Dacman room had some Roon Eq applied to remove a bit of bass. 1
Guest Posted October 25, 2023 Posted October 25, 2023 22 hours ago, pass the bass said: - Is there DSP in the room? Why does it matter whether DSP has been used or not? Is a setup considered less worthy if DSP was used?
pass the bass Posted October 25, 2023 Posted October 25, 2023 26 minutes ago, Snoopy8 said: Why does it matter whether DSP has been used or not? Is a setup considered less worthy if DSP was used? Good point. It shouldn't matter if the outcome is better sound.
Keith_W Posted October 25, 2023 Posted October 25, 2023 29 minutes ago, Snoopy8 said: Why does it matter whether DSP has been used or not? Is a setup considered less worthy if DSP was used? I consider DSP to be the third most important factor behind the speakers and the room. I think it is even more important than what electronics you are using. Don't get me wrong, systems without DSP can achieve good sound, but it is considerably more difficult and requires a lot more experimentation and treatment to reach the goal. Most of the demonstrators know that they will all be using challenging rooms and need to come up with a strategy for dealing with it. To their credit, their skill in managing to do so really shone through, most of the rooms sounded great but I did note that nearly all of them had bass problems. The ones that didn't were using DSP, had larger rooms, were full of people, or employed creative lateral thinking (I am thinking of Tivoli Audio with their diagonally set up room ... very clever!). And of course, the other type of room without bass issues were the ones which were deficient in bass in the first place. On another note, I am seriously lusting after that Stax headphone after finally getting to hear the SR-009S for the first time. I have read many reports that they are a light sounding headphone but I thought they sounded surprisingly meaty given all the reviews I have read. However it was a noisy environment and too much sound leaked in. I would love to hear them again in a quieter environment. Head-Fi used to organize headphone GTG's, but I haven't seen one for a long time. Maybe something we could do on SNA. 3
Addicted to music Posted October 25, 2023 Posted October 25, 2023 7 hours ago, Snoopy8 said: Why does it matter whether DSP has been used or not? Is a setup considered less worthy if DSP was used? I kind of agree with you, it’s like athletes taking steroids or advance drugs at the olympics…... OK, let’s not go there! But, for audio every set up is different and for an event like this every room is different. Most would have DSPed it and that’s what you’re listening to………..however you can always asked for it to be bypassed to hear what it’s true colour is in that room.
POV Posted October 25, 2023 Posted October 25, 2023 5 minutes ago, Addicted to music said: I kind of agree with you, it’s like athletes taking steroids or advance drugs at the olympics…... OK, let’s not go there! But, for audio every set up is different and for an event like this every room is different. Most would have DSPed it and that’s what you’re listening to………..however you can always asked for it to be bypassed to hear what it’s true colour is in that room. Surely if a device is designed to incorporate DSP, then it’s reasonable to mount an argument that you are only hearing it’s true colours with DSP engaged (assuming that the room has been correctly measured and the DSP is applied appropriately) 2
acg Posted October 25, 2023 Posted October 25, 2023 7 hours ago, Keith_W said: Don't get me wrong, systems without DSP can achieve good sound, but it is considerably more difficult and requires a lot more experimentation and treatment to reach the goal. Wrong thread for it I know, and I intend no follow-ups, but I need to add to your comment Keith. Room treatment and DSP treat different things and have different outcomes. When done properly, one fixes bass in the entire room and the other merely rearranges it so it is less problematic at one particular spot. DSP is relatively quick and easy but does not solve any bass problems, it just shifts them so they are less-bad at the listening chair, and there are major room problems DSP has zero control over, although it is certainly the right tool in show conditions and for most people at home where proper room treatment is impossible or unwanted simply because when used properly it can improve the sound in under-treated rooms. End-of-rant. Wish I have gone to the show...looks like I missed a good time. 2
Addicted to music Posted October 25, 2023 Posted October 25, 2023 2 minutes ago, POV said: Surely if a device is designed to incorporate DSP, then it’s reasonable to mount an argument that you are only hearing it’s true colours with DSP engaged (assuming that the room has been correctly measured and the DSP is applied appropriately) absolutely agreed
POV Posted October 25, 2023 Posted October 25, 2023 3 minutes ago, acg said: Wrong thread for it I know, and I intend no follow-ups, but I need to add to your comment Keith. Room treatment and DSP treat different things and have different outcomes. When done properly, one fixes bass in the entire room and the other merely rearranges it so it is less problematic at one particular spot. DSP is relatively quick and easy but does not solve any bass problems, it just shifts them so they are less-bad at the listening chair, and there are major room problems DSP has zero control over, although it is certainly the right tool in show conditions and for most people at home where proper room treatment is impossible or unwanted simply because when used properly it can improve the sound in under-treated rooms. End-of-rant. Wish I have gone to the show...looks like I missed a good time. I agree it’s the wrong thread for this. The rest of your rant I disagree with and think in parts is just objectively incorrect. 1
pass the bass Posted October 25, 2023 Posted October 25, 2023 38 minutes ago, acg said: Room treatment and DSP treat different things and have different outcomes. When done properly, one fixes bass in the entire room and the other merely rearranges it so it is less problematic at one particular spot. DSP is relatively quick and easy but does not solve any bass problems, it just shifts them so they are less-bad at the listening chair, and there are major room problems DSP has zero control over Thank you for shedding light on this. I was enjoying the music being played on the Dutch & Dutch system (active standmounts with DSP room correction). Then I requested a track which I know for its pace, attack and bass: it didn't sound as fast; the bass didn't extend low enough, nor as tight. I was perplexed because I thought the active speakers should have enough power and the DSP should have sorted out the bass. So it seems even DSP has its limitations, although to be fair, some pimprovement is better than none. The experience also re-affirmed the principle of assessing the sound with familiar music.
POV Posted October 25, 2023 Posted October 25, 2023 54 minutes ago, pass the bass said: Thank you for shedding light on this. I was enjoying the music being played on the Dutch & Dutch system (active standmounts with DSP room correction). Then I requested a track which I know for its pace, attack and bass: it didn't sound as fast; the bass didn't extend low enough, nor as tight. I was perplexed because I thought the active speakers should have enough power and the DSP should have sorted out the bass. So it seems even DSP has its limitations, although to be fair, some pimprovement is better than none. The experience also re-affirmed the principle of assessing the sound with familiar music. The section you have quoted, is in my view objectively incorrect and an inaccurate portrayal of both the difference and the objective of DSP in modern systems. I don’t think it sheds light, if anything it is the opposite.
frednork Posted October 25, 2023 Author Posted October 25, 2023 interesting comments, so how do people feel about dsp being used at the show ? is it a smart thing to do, or is it "cheating", or changing the natural character of the speakers or other things?
Guest Posted October 25, 2023 Posted October 25, 2023 1 hour ago, acg said: DSP is relatively quick and easy but does not solve any bass problems, it just shifts them so they are less-bad at the listening chair, and there are major room problems DSP has zero control over, Suggest you read this https://www.dirac.com/live/dirac-live-active-room-treatment/ But will it change your prejudice ?
Guest Posted October 25, 2023 Posted October 25, 2023 (edited) 15 minutes ago, frednork said: it "cheating", or changing the natural character of the speakers or other things? I had a feeling that some were implying "cheating" when I read some of the comments. We agree the room has by far the biggest influence on the sound. Is it cheating when an exhibitor attempts to tame the room and allow the audience to hear the speakers? Edited October 25, 2023 by Snoopy8 Typo
acg Posted October 25, 2023 Posted October 25, 2023 9 minutes ago, POV said: The section you have quoted, is in my view objectively incorrect and an inaccurate portrayal of both the difference and the objective of DSP in modern systems. I don’t think it sheds light, if anything it is the opposite. DSP is no panacea, rather a band-aid. The idea that it solves all room problems is preposterous and not particularly helpful. 2 minutes ago, Snoopy8 said: Suggest you read this https://www.dirac.com/live/dirac-live-active-room-treatment/ But will it change your prejudice ? I am not predjudiced against DSP, just aware of what it can and cannot achieve for room acoustics, and I really dislike the narrative that it "solves" room and speaker acoustic problems because it certainly does not "solve" much of the stuff that room treatment will achieve. Dirac Live is an attempt to influence small room reverberation using digital technology which is already something that is successful with proper room treatment. DSP and room treatment are not mutually exclusive and can work well together, but just don't try to sell the fallacy that you can solve acoustic reflections using digital technology alone. I can't help but think that your reaction and anothers above is based on your own predjudice about the use of DSP combined with a misread of my earlier post. 9 minutes ago, frednork said: interesting comments, so how do people feel about dsp being used at the show ? is it a smart thing to do, or is it "cheating", or changing the natural character of the speakers or other things? Good thing for sure. 2
POV Posted October 25, 2023 Posted October 25, 2023 2 minutes ago, acg said: DSP is no panacea, rather a band-aid. The idea that it solves all room problems is preposterous and not particularly helpful. Didn’t suggest it was a panacea, nor that it could solve all room problems anywhere nor have I ever. That doesn’t alter the fact that your representation of the objective of DSP and the relative differences between room treatment and DSP was objectively incorrect. Not looking for a bun fight, just suggest it would be good for you to do some more research to better understand the subject matter if you want to have a rant.
klm Posted October 25, 2023 Posted October 25, 2023 I do hope that room using those unusual speakers pushed right into the corners and that big valve amplifier was using DSP processing. How else could he get the quality of sound reproduction he did? My wife even said if I wanted to buy the speakers, she would be happy.
Guest Posted October 25, 2023 Posted October 25, 2023 It wasn't, and Audio Note speakers work so well in that application. It was a very simple signal chain, in fact. The only other speaker I've heard that also benefits from this design/positioning is Klipsch Corner Horns. - but this is off topic. 3
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